Spruce advice

[bwoods11]

Hey can u cut in there anyway since it is in a crp program?

With approval from the NRCS. I talked with them and they said yes I could, thinning is allowed. It would be really limited though.

 

[bwoods11]

Dipper brings up a good point about cutting if its in a CRP, but from reading your post I'm guessing it's out of the program now. I'd love to have going on what you do now. Like just about everyone has said, leave it or make very few changes. On another note has anyone ever tried to hinge pine or spruce?

Good question (?), would it work just to tip a few over. In certain locations they are a bit crowded.

 

[bwoods11]

I have removed a few spruce where they are too thick. I should have removed more.

You can cut lower limbs to create and focus entry and exit at specific locations. Arrange these locations for favorable winds and stands.

I also like to leave a gap of 50-150 feet and then plant random small spruce. The gap could be clover, crab apples trees, shrubs, or just grasses.

Ok that makes sense

 

[dipper]

Good question (?), would it work just to tip a few over. In certain locations they are a bit crowded.

No, they will get you no where. I only do this in thick balsm and white pine stands to give food for the deer in the middle of winter.
I have about a 1.3 acre spruce stand in basically the middle of fields. The trees were planted in the esrly 70s about 4' apart. It wasn't my best bedding area of course due to where it was and the size, but it held deer really well, up until about 2005. Obviously those branches were dead inside there for 20 years, but it was so thick you really could walk through it. It was especially good during the gun season, deer liked the security with the intense pressure.
I cut all the lower branches off and it gets minimal use now. It still would have been good thermal cover during the winter, if I didn't cut the branches. I use to find sheds in there like crazy, right up to cuttin branches.
I need to thin them bad, but Im not doing it by hand. I gotta wait for a neighbor to have his place thinned with a processor and then they are really getting thinned hard. I'm going to thin them so hard brush can grow between. If they aren't thinned hard the branches will grow in, and there will b no understory.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I've never hinged spruce, so don't know if they live or not. Even if you're allowed to cut/thin some, if it were me, I'd do very limited cutting. I've had good luck cutting limbs up to about 30" from the ground as I said earlier because deer like to get in under something when it's snowing/sleeting, etc. But I'd only do that here & there, not all through the patch. Small openings may be of benefit if trees are too crowded in spots.

I agree with Bur on leaving a gap outside the main block of spruce and then randomly planting some spruce mixed with some crabs, shrubs, tall grass, goldenrod, hawthorn, etc. You are creating essentially a staging area for deer to exit the spruce bedding area and have some cover to check out the surroundings & test the wind before fully exposing themselves into a field. Mixed EDGE really. Beautiful set-up.

 

[dipper]

I don't think u can plant anything on the outside if it's in crp? That's the thing with these programs, at a certain point your hands are tied

 

[Bowsnbucks]

You might be right, Dipper - I don't know the CRP rules because I've never been involved with a CRP program. I was looking at Bwoods situation just from a habitat standpoint. Having some edge / mixed stuff planted like Bur suggested would be a good set-up I believe. Planted edge-feathering in a way. I don't know what CRP rules allow though.

 

[bwoods11]

The CRP situation is it comes out in 2015. I may or may not enter the trees back into CRP. First off, it may not work unless we have a sign up. I think I can adjust the program this year if needed, to add some trees (did that before). They said thinning and cutting dead trees is allowed.

The other option is a permanent/30 year wildlife program like RIM. Which will pay me about $1000 an acre and then I can write up a long term management plan for thinning/adding trees/or even a food plot in the middle of an opening. There is one natural opening about 3/4 acre that would be perfect. Although it would get hit hard and probably would only allow for clover or brassica.

 

[bwoods11]

Note--Land sells for around $1000 an acre in this area, I paid $650....so it is not like I would lose money putting it into a program.

It may make my farm less valuable in 15-20 years, but I plan on leaving the farm for the boys (in a trust).

 

[j-bird]

Not to high-jack here but I have a question about thermal cover and conifers. My area has ZERO conifers other than the occasional eastern redcedar. I want to plant an area of roughly 3 acres into spruce trees, but I am not sure how the thermal cover component works. I understand conifers will keep out a majority of the wind, but is that the main function? Do they tend to work better when the essentially canopy? I have no intention of row planting my spruce - my "plan" when realized is to use plugs. I have seen that circles tend to work best with an outer edge created around the general area is that true? I want the area for cover and holding deer - it won't be hunted as it is currently in a "sanctuary" area. Like I said sorry for the high-jack just have no history with conifers like you boys in the Nort!

 

[bwoods11]

J-bird--No fire questions away, go for it. I would be interesting to see some response on that question. I think you are on the right track with plugs and not planting rows (Rows take a long time to get there)....

Personally I would look at more than 3 acres, maybe 5-6?

 

[j-bird]

I only have 3 acres (maybe a hair more) available. I would have to clear cut to get more and to do that I have to cross a decent sized stream and deal with all the headaches that come with that. The area is currently a fallow field that I was letting regenerate. The area that has some trees is usually covered in deer beds so I know the deer like the area, but I think if I can offer even better cover and something that isn't real common in my area I may be able to draw or hold even more.

So do the deer need the "canopy affect" for thermal cover to work or is simply blocking that wind how it works?

Is planting the outside edge as a wall and then planting the remaining area in circles best?

Should I use different spruce types (I was planning on using Norway just because they grow fast)?

 

[West Branch]

Conifers will also catch snow as well, so there is less snow below them. Is that the canopy affect you area talking about? Probably not as much of a factor for you J-Bird, but up here in a harsh winter it makes it easier for deer to move around. I would think stopping wind may be bigger in your area, but just a guess.

I often wondered if the dark green of conifers helps things stay a little bit warmer around them from sunlight absorption? Maybe a bigger factor in the late winter. An example is last year in the end of March I was a few miles from our farm and there was a large stand of firs/spruces and there was not much snow and patches of bare ground under them and I saw 15-20 deer in the area. Areas of deciduous trees and brush still had 2+ feet of snow.

I like planting different types; Norway and white for drier areas and black for wet areas. Also I am throwing some balsam fir into the mix this year in dry, moist, and/or shade areas. My main reason is so that I can say I planted a bunch of different types :) I don't really like the idea of monocultures either.

 

[scott44]

How far apart are you guys going to plant these? I was thinking 15' or is this too close?

 

[wiscwhip]

I just found this long and scholarly article of a 12 year, 4 site, NE MN study performed by the MN DNR on the winter use of conifer cover published by the Public Library of Science. I am stunned that the MN DNR put out such good information, the science is solid. Maybe there is hope yet if you can get a seat at the table. This somewhat explains my thoughts as to why I chose to use V or U-shaped plantings of conifers for thermal cover "windbreaks" with the open end facing S/SE and the closed end to the N/NW. The snow catching and wind stopping affect of the closed end to the north and west and the open end facing daytime solar radiant heat are both factors in the reasons I recommend planting in this particular way. I am by no means an expert on any of this. Not saying their aren't other ways to do it, but this supports the reasons I have chosen to do it the way I do.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065368

Another more basic explanation of deer yarding areas and winter conifer cover by the Maine Wildlife Division.

https://www1.maine.gov/ifw/hunting_trapping/pdfs/deer_yards.pdf

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I've planted a LOT of Norway & white spruce over 20 yrs. I have no experience with black spruce for wet areas. I am not a forester or expert, but I ask real foresters for advice in what I plant and where.

In most of the U.S., the prevailing winds are from the west and northwest, with some shifts in winter from the north. So it only makes sense to plant more densely on the west and north sides of any proposed winter ( thermal ) shelter / windbreak. I agree with Whip that if you're going to have openings or thinner plantings, you'd want to have them on the south / southeast side for maximum sun exposure. If deer want to lay in the sun, they can use the openings and thinner trees to the south side to accomplish that and still have the wind protection on the north and west sides.

I've found that deer like to bed under thick spruce limbs to stay out of snow / sleet / rain. To accommodate them, once spruce trees get big enough ( more than 15 ft. tall - 18 ft. is better ) I cut the lowest limbs up from the ground to about 30". That gives them an easy way to " get in and under " the spruce for weather protection. I DO NOT do that to all the trees in a stand - only to a few . I don't want to create a wind-tunnel under the limbs. I would make these " living umbrellas " on the south / southeast sides of a stand of spruce to preserve the wind-blocking capabilities of the spruce on the north & west sides. I generally make 2 or 3 " umbrellas " in a close proximity so does and fawns can bed in the same general area together. ( maybe 2 or 3 in a 20 yd. to 30 yd. area ) Blocking the worst of the wind = saving the deer calories to stay warm. If you can block the wind and at the same time create some " umbrellas " that have exposure to the sun for warmth - the deer will find them and you have a winner.

In general, spruce are better than pines for thermal protection because pines lose their lower limbs as they grow. It's just their nature - it's the way they grow. Spruce keep their limbs all the way to the ground for the most part and thus make a better windbreak for thermal protection. We have areas at my camp that were logged about 18 - 19 yrs. ago and were planted to a mix of Norway spruce, white spruce, and white pine. Hemlock seeded itself in naturally. The bulk of the cut is in spruce and even on a windy day, I can go in there and it's CALM !! Tree tops of taller, older trees will be " roaring ", but at ground level - calm, quiet. What a shelter / sanctuary it is now! There are openings and thinner spots that have weeds, briars, goldenrod in them and the deer will lay in those when the weather is good / sun is out. Food plot is 125 to 150 yds. away. As Bwoods said earlier, he wants to plant beans or brassica near the spruce so they don't have to go far to get some eats. Perfect.

 

[wiscwhip]

In most of the U.S., the prevailing winds are from the west and northwest, with some shifts in winter from the north. So it only makes sense to plant more densely on the west and north sides of any proposed winter ( thermal ) shelter / windbreak. I agree with Whip that if you're going to have openings or thinner plantings, you'd want to have them on the south / southeast side for maximum sun exposure. If deer want to lay in the sun, they can use the openings and thinner trees to the south side to accomplish that and still have the wind protection on the north and west sides.

I've found that deer like to bed under thick spruce limbs to stay out of snow / sleet / rain. To accommodate them, once spruce trees get big enough ( more than 15 ft. tall - 18 ft. is better ) I cut the lowest limbs up from the ground to about 30". That gives them an easy way to " get in and under " the spruce for weather protection. I DO NOT do that to all the trees in a stand - only to a few . I don't want to create a wind-tunnel under the limbs. I would make these " living umbrellas " on the south / southeast sides of a stand of spruce to preserve the wind-blocking capabilities of the spruce on the north & west sides. I generally make 2 or 3 " umbrellas " in a close proximity so does and fawns can bed in the same general area together. ( maybe 2 or 3 in a 20 yd. to 30 yd. area ) Blocking the worst of the wind = saving the deer calories to stay warm. If you can block the wind and at the same time create some " umbrellas " that have exposure to the sun for warmth - the deer will find them and you have a winner.

Excellent explanation and almost exactly what I have done many times in the past.

 

[Bucks&Ducks]

I agree with pretty much everything BnB said.

There is something special about walking into a conifer stand during a nasty storm. It is just calm, hardly any snow or wind. It just feels warmer and that is what makes it so attractive to the deer. IME, you need low limbs to block wind and at least some sort of a canopy. I am not sure if the canopy holds the warm air in or if it just blocks the snow or what the reason is. If the conifers get too mature and lose some of their lower limbs, the wind will cut through them usage drops off significantly.

 

[dipper]

I agree with pretty much everything BnB said.

There is something special about walking into a conifer stand during a nasty storm. It is just calm, hardly any snow or wind. It just feels warmer and that is what makes it so attractive to the deer. IME, you need low limbs to block wind and at least some sort of a canopy. I am not sure if the canopy holds the warm air in or if it just blocks the snow or what the reason is. If the conifers get too mature and lose some of their lower limbs, the wind will cut through them usage drops off significantly.

That's not true, the deer still loved my spruce for 20 years after the limbs died. They actually still like them after I cut the limbs off. In an open setting

 

[dipper]

This is the little patch of spruce that I've been talking about.

The woods to the east was mature pines so it wasn't like these spruce were an extension of great cover.
I'm not gonna say this patch was elite bedding cover. We were always Driving/ walking past this little patch and it still held deer. To me that speaks volumes to the shere attraction to spruce, especially when the branches are dead.
I have since converted the field to the south to nwsg.