Silencers: who hunts with them?

[yoderjac]

Jack, on your first post I would have to disagree with your decibel analogy... it would totally depend on type/quality of suppressor and what rifle caliber with different loads and bullets also factoring in on the amount of sound produced.
I've watched a lot of predator hunting shows and videos shooting suppressors at long range being able to kill multiple animals and shoot long distance with plenty of power to flatten a coyote or whatever the shooter was after. I would think as far as the use of a suppressor on a rifle slowing the bullet down in a hunting situation is almost negligible.

I don't disagree with any of that. If I gave the impression that I thought a suppressor would slow down a bullet significantly I didn't mean to. I appreciate the discussion. There is a lot I don't know about suppressors. My decibel discussion was not an analogy. It was intended to be a specific example. I was using a .30-06 as a typical .30 caliber deer load. Kinetic energy is mass x velocity squared. With most deer rifle loads, we get the killing power from the transfer of kinetic energy from the projectile to the deer and most loads use high velocity to get that.

If there are suppressors now that can dampen high velocity (above the sound barrier) ammunition by more than 25-30 db, I'd love to hear about them. When I looked into it when they were first legalized for hunting here, I got the impression that 25-30 db was about the limits. I'm not sure how one would handle the sound barrier break. I also got the impression that suppressors were very effective with sub-sonic ammunition.

Where things broke down for me was using sub-sonic ammunition for deer. When you limit velocity to something below the sound barrier, I can't convince myself that you can get enough killing power for deer with .30 cal. When you step up to .45 cal you can increases the mass of the projectile, perhaps enough to get effective killing power for deer, but you now lose the ballistics of .30 cal ammunition.

For predators that don't require as much killing power, I certainly understand how 30 cal sub-sonic ammunition can be effective even at long ranges with todays range finders and such.

So, the argument I was making to myself was really this:

- Using a suppressor will dampen high velocity ammunition by around 30 db but the gun is still loud enough to cause hearing damage and provoke a typical firearm response from deer. To me, it is probably not worth the cost for this benefit.

- Using a suppressor is highly effective sub-sonic ammo but I think using sub-sonic ammunition for deer has some real limitations. Here, the benefit of a very quiet firearm would be worth the suppressor cost to me, limitations of the subsonic ammo plus the cost probably are not worth it to me.

Again, if there is suppressor technology that can do a much better job with super-sonic ammo, I'd like to look into it. And, if there is a way to get sufficient killing power from sub-sonic ammunition for deer sized animals that I'm not considering, I'd love to hear about that. So, if guys are using them to hunt deer, I'd like to hear about loads they are using and how they deal with the limitations of the load they have chosen if any.

I totally get it for predator hunting. It makes perfect sense.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[H20fwler]

With a quick search this explains the decibel part of it;

"How Much Sound Do Gun Silencers Actually Suppress

Modern day silencers typically can reduce the noise about 14.3-43 decibels, depending on a variety of factors, such as whether it’s a subsonic bullet or not; length of the barrel/silencer; etc. The average suppression level, according to independent tests done on a variety of commercially available suppressors, is around 30 dB, which is around the same reduction level of typical ear protection gear often used when firing guns.

That’s actually pretty significant considering the decibel system is a logarithmic scale; so, for example, 200 dB is 1000 times louder than 100 dB, not double, and a reduction of 40 dB is more like 1/100th of the original sound. However, for most commercially available fire arms and cartridges, this ends up only reducing the noise level to somewhere in the range of 130-150-ish dB for a supersonic cartridge and 117-130-ish dB for a subsonic cartridge. For reference on just how loud that is, an ambulance or police siren is typically between 100-140 dB. So this isn’t exactly the “whoosh” sound Hollywood depicts. Given that hearing loss can occur as low as 85 dB, it’s typically recommended that even with a silencer on a fire arm, that the shooter still wears some sort of hearing protection."

And I think this pertains to hunting and the advantages;

"Why Use a Gun Silencer

So if they don’t make them anywhere near silent, why do people use them? It turns out, there are a lot of advantages to silencers, particularly for military usage, including:

• A typical reduction in recoil of around 30%, which increases accuracy and reduces firing fatigue on the person shooting.
• Drastically reduced flash, which can be a huge advantage for military personal, particularly in night operations or for snipers. By getting rid of most of the flash, firing won’t reveal your position from a visual standpoint. This can also be a critical feature if firing around explosive gases, particularly if, before firing each round, you put a piece of tape over the silencer opening to help prevent the gasses from entering the barrel of the gun.
• Silencers help significantly in masking the position of snipers, not just because of getting rid of the flash, but also for audible reasons. Snipers can effectively mask their position by positioning themselves such that the bullet will pass by large hard objects, which will reflect the “crack” sound from the supersonic bullet much more effectively than the “bang” sound from a non-suppressed shot. This will make it impossible for an observer to tell which direction the shot came from, because it will sound like it’s coming from every direction in a perfectly chosen environment. Wolves actually use a similar technique in modulating their howls to make it sound like there is a huge pack of wolves surrounding something, instead of just one or two.
• Suppressors change the perceived sound of a gunshot enough that most people wouldn’t recognize it as such, particularly in a city environment where there are numerous ambient noises.
• Firing an unsuppressed gun in a small closed area, such as a bedroom or the like, can permanently damage hearing due to the noise being reflected back at the shooter" at close range; this can also disorient the person firing the weapon. Using a silencer significantly reduces this risk."

I didn't see anything about it drastically slowing down the projectile in the quick search I did. If it is good enough for military snipers it's definitely a plus for me in many hunting situations.

 

[Telemark]

For deer sized game, the tradeoff is noise verses killing power, distance, and accuracy

No, it's just less noise. You don't lose anything balistically.

 

[Catscratch]

No, it's just less noise. You don't lose anything balistically.

I hate to stand up for Yoder, but I think he was talking about using downloaded ammo (sub-sonic) with a can. In that case it does slow things down some. It was in his post somewhere if you read all of it. :)

 

[Telemark]

It's illegal here to use subsonic or otherwise slow ammo for big game. But we all use silencers to reduce the noise of our rifles. It's not an either/or situation. Silencers work great with high-powered rifles. It is SIGNIFICANTLY less noisy with a can.

Here's a photo from our mid-day cofee/lunch break:

 

[H20fwler]

Ha! looks like sniper school^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Telemark]

Ha! looks like sniper school^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yeah it can be funny to see a guy hunting with his grandfather's old Mauser or even Husqvarna rifle and a big black aluminum can sticking off the end.

The attitude here toward silencers is similar to that of mufflers on vehicles. It is much more pleasant for the user, and it's less noise into the surrounding environment.

 

[yoderjac]

Cat & Bill,

Yes, I was not referring to the suppressor slowing down the load, I was referring to selecting a load that a suppressor can silence enough for the cost to be worth it to me. To get sufficient sound reduction for me, I would be choosing a sub-sonic round. To get sufficient killing power for a deer I'd be choosing a larger caliber heavier projectile. That is where the speed and accuracy challenges come in.

Telemark,

I certainly don't doubt there are many other advantages to using a suppressor with supersonic ammo like recoil reduction. I'm also sure that there are places where the reduction in sound, even for supersonic ammo, may be less problematic when it comes to neighbor relations. This is especially true for range fire where rounds may be repeatedly fired.

While I haven't been able to talk myself into one for my application, I certainly appreciate your viewpoint and see how they can be a fit for other applications.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

No, it's just less noise. You don't lose anything balistically.

Yes, if you are ok with the level of noise with suppressed supersonic ammunition you are absolutely correct.

 

[Catscratch]

One thing I've noticed about silencer owners is that they never regret their purchase. Even yrs after the newness wears off they still love their cans.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Telemark]

Yoderjac, have you ever heard a suppressed center-fire rifle in person?

 

[Telemark]

By the way, if the regulation would relax, prices would come WAY down. Real-world after-tax prices in Norway for domestically produced silencers are lower than all US prices I have ever seen. And Norway is one of the most expensive places on earth, with some of the highest taxes. Sales tax is 25% for example.

Silencers for .22 rimfire are $80-$120, and robust models for center-fire rifles are in the $300-$600 range.

The one I bought for my .308 was $475 after tax. It's a Hausken JD224. About 35db reduction, and 1/3 of the can fits over the barrel.

http://www.ruag.co.uk/products/1119-hausken-jd224

There's an election next year. Maybe we should all call our representatives. I read something about a "hearing protection act" in one of the hunting magazines.

 

[H20fwler]

Another positive on having a suppressor is once you get it and the stamp or registration you can use it on multiple firearms of same caliber. The permit goes with the suppressor not the gun. I’ve got a couple friends that bought them for their 223’s and they also use same one on their 22 caliber pistols rifles, just had everything threaded to be able to easily switch it from gun to gun. They said the background check to get one took just a little longer than getting a Conceal Carry permit.

 

[Telemark]

Yes, if you are ok with the level of noise with suppressed supersonic ammunition you are absolutely correct.

What do you mean "ok with" it? I shoot guns. Guns are loud. Silencers make them less loud. My guns being less loud make shooting and hunting more enjoyable, and it reduces damage to my hearing.

For example:

The next hunting rifle I buy will be a Savage 116 in .308, to which I will add a Hausken Whisper. That takes the approximately 160 decibels of the unsuppressed rifle down to approximately 120 decibels with the suppressor. 160 decibels is 10,000 times louder than 120 decibels. That means shooting the rifle, whether at the range or in the forest, will cause me far less hearing damage.

It's not an issue of being "ok with" 120 decibels. It's an issue of what is available to me. I will take the 120 decibels over the 160 decibels because I am not "ok with" unnecessary hearing damage.

 

[yoderjac]

What do you mean "ok with" it? I shoot guns. Guns are loud. Silencers make them less loud. My guns being less loud make shooting and hunting more enjoyable, and it reduces damage to my hearing.

For example:

The next hunting rifle I buy will be a Savage 116 in .308, to which I will add a Hausken Whisper. That takes the approximately 160 decibels of the unsuppressed rifle down to approximately 120 decibels with the suppressor. 160 decibels is 10,000 times louder than 120 decibels. That means shooting the rifle, whether at the range or in the forest, will cause me far less hearing damage.

It's not an issue of being "ok with" 120 decibels. It's an issue of what is available to me. I will take the 120 decibels over the 160 decibels because I am not "ok with" unnecessary hearing damage.

What I mean is that with anything we buy, there is a cost/benefit ratio. I certainly understand the logarithmic scale. That is not an issue. The question for me (may not be for you) is this: Is the cost of a suppressor worth the benefit for my hunting application. I'm saying that if I could reduce noise levels down to around 100 db without a reduction in firearm performance, the price tag may be worth it. A muffled 100 db at 50+ yards has a different impact on game than a supersonic crack. One reason that snipers use them is that it is much harder to identify the location of the sound when you avoid breaking the sound barrier and muffle the sound of the shot. So, now I have multiple benefits, hearing protection (significantly more than at 120db), as well as a positive impact on game reaction. It changes the cost/benefit ratio for me and my application.

If for you and your application, a reduction to 120 db from 160 db is sufficient to justify the cost, it makes much more sense for you. I don't find recoil to be problematic for me. I don't have issues with neighbors complaining. Hearing protection is a concern for me but there are other, less expensive, ways to address that.

Does anyone use a suppressor with a subsonic load to hunt deer? If so, what caliber and load? What issues, if any, do you have with knockdown and killing power? When deer don't drop in place, do they travel further than with high velocity loads? Do you find yourself limiting your shot selection more than you did with high velocity ammo? How do you find deer reacting to the shot at different distances?

I think I have a handle on the technical capabilities of a suppressor. Answers to these kind of questions could make me reconsider if one would fit my application.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Another positive on having a suppressor is once you get it and the stamp or registration you can use it on multiple firearms of same caliber. The permit goes with the suppressor not the gun. I’ve got a couple friends that bought them for their 223’s and they also use same one on their 22 caliber pistols rifles, just had everything threaded to be able to easily switch it from gun to gun. They said the background check to get one took just a little longer than getting a Conceal Carry permit.

That is good to know. I also forgot about threading cost as I don't have anything threaded.

 

[Catscratch]

Does anyone use a suppressor with a subsonic load to hunt deer? If so, what caliber and load? What issues, if any, do you have with knockdown and killing power? When deer don't drop in place, do they travel further than with high velocity loads? Do you find yourself limiting your shot selection more than you did with high velocity ammo? How do you find deer reacting to the shot at different distances?

Post #15 Selsor answers some of those questions in detail. From what I've read elsewhere 300BO subsonic is a very common caliber for suppressed deer hunting.

 

[yoderjac]

Post #15 Selsor answers some of those questions in detail. From what I've read elsewhere 300BO subsonic is a very common caliber for suppressed deer hunting.

If I read his post correctly, he shoots with subsonic loads during the summer for practice and uses a supersonic load to hunt deer.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Catscratch]

If I read his post correctly, he shoots with subsonic loads during the summer for practice and uses a supersonic load to hunt deer.

Thanks,

Jack

True! (now I'm the one that can't read) :) I do know I've read that people hunt with that caliber in sub-sonic. I bet a quick google search would find info on it.

 

[yoderjac]

True! (now I'm the one that can't read) :) I do know I've read that people hunt with that caliber in sub-sonic. I bet a quick google search would find info on it.

Best I've been able to find is folks stepping up caliber and weight going to .45 to get sufficient killing power but this degrades ballistics. It may be a solution for situations where shots are inside 100 yards. I was hoping someone on here who uses suppressors to hunt deer had messed around with subsonic loads.

Thanks,

jack