President Trumps Gun Talk Today

[yoderjac]

I'm a gun owner an believe in the 2nd. But here's a question for all of us ..............

Let's say a tyrant in sheep's clothing gets into the oval office. He comes off as being a great guy .......... and then gets power hungry, or decides he wants to declare marshal law and starts confiscating all guns and jailing any political opponents. With all the fire-power the military has ( which he would command ) with drones, missiles, tanks, etc. - what do we think we're going to do with our AR's, 06's, 12 gauges, .45 auto's ?? I know some will say - " It'll never happen here. " Take a good look around the world, and at history, and see how impossible(?) it can be. Why do we think we're immune ??

I'm all for guns - I've been shooting since I was 10 yrs. old. But if a tank is aiming at my house, I don't think my weapons are going to save me or turn the tide. So the point is - if the Feds decide to "take over" a state or states, how would our AR's, etc. defend us ?? We might say - " Well, at least I'm gonna take out as many as I can before they kill me." That sounds good, but a shell from a tank - and I'm powder. Reality.

Perhaps I was not clear. In order for a tyrant to take over, he needs support from a significant amount of some combination of military and federal law enforcement. If these people believe a bloodless coupe can succeed, and their personal lives and circumstance will improve as a result, some will be tempted to capitulate. On the other hand, if they know there is sufficient means for an insurgency to operate (ubiquity of firearms), even though it may not succeed, they know the future will be a brother on brother blood bath like the civil war, they are much less likely to join in. It is much harder for a tyrant to gain sufficient support when the military knows a blood bath will ensue. Asymmetric warfare has proven to be a challenge for the most mighty military. Violence reduces both the perpetrator and recipient. The ubiquity of firearms makes the threat of a bloody insurgency much more likely and, regardless of its chances of ultimate success, is a deterrent to rational folks from supporting a tyrant based on self-interest. It simply raises the bar.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Boll Weevil]

But confiscating guns BEFORE due process is carried out... not so ok with that one

This. Agree 100% with BigBend.

Folks can debate all they want about bans, background checks, magazine size...whatever. What really got my attention were the comments related to his willingness to overlook due process.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Big Bend Marine - 1st - Thank-you for your service to our country. And I get the qualified persons to man the tanks, being willing, etc. But given your thoughts on the spiritual path our country is on, and lack of REAL ethics in so many places, added to the 24-7-365 quest for money and financial security, I wonder if it could never happen. It has happened - and is - happening in so many places.

My point was, the reasoning for being able to have AR's and any other guns is to defend against a marshal law type scenario, is kind-of laughable to me. IF it ever were to come to fruition, what would an AR do to stop a tank ?? Or missile ?? I don't think it'll happen either - a military coup here - but if it did, I don't think our pea-shooters would be much of a deterrent.

I agree on the background check stuff and mental health history so mentally unstable people can't buy guns. And I'm for bump-stock bans, which I agree is a no-brainer. I'm not for taking guns without due process.

Yoder - The only thing I can say is - has any of that stopped it from happening in multiple places and in multiple times throughout history ??

 

[4wanderingeyes]

For those that want to ban bump stocks, let me ask you this, if the bump stock ban was in place a year ago, would that have prevented any of these people being dead? I have my doubts! This guy had all the time in that school he wanted. No one was coming in for him. These kids ended up dead because the local police, the FBI, and the school itself let the kids down. It really had nothing to do with the bump stock any more then the Chevy pickup did that he drove to the school, or the Nike tennis shoes he had on. The idea of banning the bump stock is a feel good knee jerk reaction, because if that gun didnt have a bump stock, there would still be the same amount dead, if not more. Have any of you shot a bump stock? Aiming happens on the first shot, after the mechanism kicks in, its just spraying bullets, which will work in a large crowd, but more then likely not many kill shots, that would more then likely have happened if he was just pulling the trigger and aiming.

I personally dont own one, nor do I plan on getting one, not my thing, but blaming a device on a gun, even if that device makes the gun spray more bullets faster, it also makes the gun useless for aiming, seems silly, and just taking the blame away from the person that is actually to blame. If we allow the bump stock ban to happen, then what will be next after the next school shooting? Because the bump stock isnt what killed these kids, and banning it, will not solve the real issue.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Here is my son shooting a bump stock, he is a very good shot shooting a gun, but notice the only time he was close to the target was the first couple shots, after that, he was a long ways off.

Not sure if this link will work or not.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201712666730851

 

[bigbendmarine]

For those that want to ban bump stocks, let me ask you this, if the bump stock ban was in place a year ago, would that have prevented any of these people being dead?

Don't want to over preach to the choir as appreciate THIS GROUP is knowledgeable (whereas half of the folks I interact with on social media don't know squat about what they're talking about when it comes to guns).

I do think that bump stocks likely helped the Vegas shooter kill more individuals than he would have otherwise, but that's the ONLY case to which I can quickly reference. Though most folks on the left wouldn't imagine this, in many cases I think bump stocks might have made for less deaths. Auto-fire typically leads to the barrel straying by recoil... that and it invites a bit more of spray and pray type fire than actual aiming... and results in empty magazines far faster (which in some cases would quickly self-limit a poor shooter).

Heck, even in the MARINE CORPS our full-auto was limited to 3 round burst when I signed up in the mid-90s. Sure some of that had to do with govt efforts to control ammo spending but do also believe that studies had shown that lethality was notably improved when re-aiming and acquiring of new targets took place within 3 rounds of fire.

So back to Vegas and why I think lethality was increased... he was firing into a packed crowd of sardines. Aiming wasn't as critical as it would have been with dispersed targets. He was able to send a significant number of rounds towards packed targets thanks to bump stocks.

As for why I'm ok with banning sales going forwards -- any nut paying attention to Vegas could use the motivation to target crowds at a graduation, football game, school assembly, etc... and in those specific "packed crowd" situations the bump stock really could maximize casulties.

 

[bigbendmarine]

And 4wanderingeyes... I might or might not have had the foresight to acquire what I think of as basically a toy for fun some number of years ago when Obama was preaching gun control seemingly endlessly.

Have to add, regardless of exact times your son hit the target it's obvious he's generally a pretty good shot. Could tell he did his best to limit drift from the recoil even if not 100% successful and also that he was doing his best to reacquire the target between shots.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Bigbend, the video I posted above shows how the gun will spray, and aiming just really isnt possible. You are correct, in large crowds, you may be able to empty the gun quicker, but many of them shots will be at feet, legs, arms, in the air, etc..

But in all honesty, the bump stock really doesnt make the gun shoot faster, it just allows the gun to shoot with out you having to pull the trigger each time. I can squeeze off 10-15 rounds as fast as a gun with a bump stock, but my finger will be sore.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I will also attest that I have shot a fully auto, and a bump stock does not make a gun a full auto. It makes it feel somewhat like one, but comparably not even close.

 

[bigbendmarine]

Shared comment on the bump stocks right at the same time you shared the follow-up video. Think most of my comments pretty much compliment what you're saying. And even agree a fast good shot can make the bump stock look even MORE silly (Jerry Miculek instantly comes to mind) .

Again isolating the focus of the bump stocks to the Vegas guy, I honestly don't think he would have been able to keep up the rate of fire he did if trying to fire semi without the aid of the bump stocks. Admittedly REALLY unique scenario having darn near a hotel room full of gear and rounds, and again I don't think it equates to many of the other mass shootings that have happened... but I do worry nuts out there might study his actions and try to imitate him. That, and just don't think the gun community is losing something dear and near with bump stocks, which again I think many of us would label as more a toy than tool.

 

[Smallplot]

There is no easy or fast fix for this problem. Everyone it seems wants to place blame. Blame on a firearm, blame on an officer, blame on a system they see as ineffective.
The person who did this has somehow become a victim of sorts in this, giving him credibility in the eyes of many others just like him and that scares the crap out of me. While people are arguing about what to even fix, some are studying and learning, and not for good intentions.

Just a few points to keep in mind through this because perceptions can be skewed from both sides:
Laws, will new laws stop any of this. Unfortunately no. It is already illegal to carry a firearm in a school, to commit murder, to discharge a weapon in a school, to detain others unlawfully. So how will another law stop this from happening realistically?

Armed police, yea there was one there so this will not keep this type of incident from happening. What it should provide, not to sound harsh or uncaring, is to limit the number of casualties. We can agree this did not happen as it should have but I am sure this will be a cross to bear for the sheriff in an upcoming election. I should point out it is sad when a sheriff takes part in a town hall about this incident and goes full bore against the NRA wanting to keep people from owning firearms. Without failing to address a failure from his deputy who was allowed to retire and keep his benefits. Sorry but it was not the NRA there in that school.

Mental health. Yes we know the police and even mental health have had previous contacts but thanks to HIPPA we will never know about the mental health side. We do have some tidbits from the law enforcement side. Ok the kid posted pictures with guns and supposedly made some threats. I am waiting to hear more about these threats before I set on an opinion as this could have been addressed by LE by taking him for a mental health evaluation. Again there is HIPPA with a roadblock so we will likely never know the truth but in this case is should it be considered a fault of LE?

Has anyone seen much about the deranged kid responsible for this mentioned? Where are the people calling for him to be held accountable? This situation is different from most as this time the person was taken into custody and did not commit suicide. Alas we continue to go after everything other than the person responsible for this unacceptable action.

Least we have the Leader of the free world saying he will circumvent due process and laws already in place to bring about an end to something we honestly can not bring an end to because there is one consistent variable we can not control, a human being.


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[yoderjac]

Big Bend Marine - 1st - Thank-you for your service to our country. And I get the qualified persons to man the tanks, being willing, etc. But given your thoughts on the spiritual path our country is on, and lack of REAL ethics in so many places, added to the 24-7-365 quest for money and financial security, I wonder if it could never happen. It has happened - and is - happening in so many places.

My point was, the reasoning for being able to have AR's and any other guns is to defend against a marshal law type scenario, is kind-of laughable to me. IF it ever were to come to fruition, what would an AR do to stop a tank ?? Or missile ?? I don't think it'll happen either - a military coup here - but if it did, I don't think our pea-shooters would be much of a deterrent.

I agree on the background check stuff and mental health history so mentally unstable people can't buy guns. And I'm for bump-stock bans, which I agree is a no-brainer. I'm not for taking guns without due process.

Yoder - The only thing I can say is - has any of that stopped it from happening in multiple places and in multiple times throughout history ??

I'm sure it has; right here, and the converse is true. We have sustained a federal republic representative form of democracy for quite some time. Fascism is often preceded by the removal of the means of revolt combined with propaganda. The ubiquity of firearms does not prevent a tyrant from taking power but it does deter it. There is no doubt in my mind that we have had leaders that were tempted but without the means and support.

 

[gjs4]

If you have to be 21 to buy any gun- you should have to be 21 to vote..... maturity, right?

let’s see how’d that go over.


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[Natty Bumppo]

Here is my son shooting a bump stock, he is a very good shot shooting a gun, but notice the only time he was close to the target was the first couple shots, after that, he was a long ways off.

Not sure if this link will work or not.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201712666730851

The point is rather academic, but are you sure that's the correct video? Doesn't look like a bump stock and his rate of fire isn't even close to what a bump stock can achieve. A bump stock only works if the stock and the pistol grip and a single piece of plastic, metal, or wood. That AK looks a standard AK.

 

[H20fwler]

The Constitution and Bill of Rights are what makes us the greatest country on earth.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

The point is rather academic, but are you sure that's the correct video? Doesn't look like a bump stock and his rate of fire isn't even close to what a bump stock can achieve. A bump stock only works if the stock and the pistol grip and a single piece of plastic, metal, or wood. That AK looks a standard AK.

Natty, that is a bump stock on it, while at the beginning the fire rate didnt get the action in a rhythm to fire, he would let off the trigger to try to re aim, with little successs.

 

[Boll Weevil]

The Constitution and Bill of Rights are what makes us the greatest country on earth.

Agree 100%...and it's being trampled upon.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Natty, that is a bump stock on it, while at the beginning the fire rate didnt get the action in a rhythm to fire, he would let off the trigger to try to re aim, with little successs.

That's pretty neat. Most bump stocks are fairly ugly and ungainly and are all one continuous piece of plastic or metal or something. I used to own an AK...bought it for something like $295 or so in the early 2000's. Sold it many years ago. Now with the Mass. Assault Weapons ban in place that same AK would probably sell for $1200 to $1500.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I have shot a bump stock on an AK, and an AR15, it takes a few rounds before it gets into a rhythm to continue to fire. I have also shot a couple fully auto guns, there really is a big difference. One the stock slides, and you hold your finger down the the kick causes your finger to come off the trigger, then your holding on to the gun tight on your shoulder causes the trigger to pull again. Like a rocking chair on a spring. If you squeeze to hard, it wont multi fire, if you dont hold it tight enough, it wont multi fire.

The full auto you just squeeze the trigger, and it feeds bullets through as long as you can keep your finger squeezed.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

4wandering ( at post #17 ) - No, I haven't seen Red Dawn. I'm actually not much into movies of any sort - the exceptions being any Clint Eastwood movie, ( I love the "spaghetti westerns" ), or many of the old western genre movies like Magnificent 7, Once Upon a Time In The West, Lonesome Dove, Jeremiah Johnson, etc. and Charles Bronson movies like The Mechanic. If the movies had to depend on me for income - they'd have been out of business years ago.