Poplar Stand improvement

slimedart

Yearling... With promise
First post here. I have already received a wealth of knowledge here. I have searched and have not really found a thread that addresses my question. How to improve a stand of older poplar trees with out cutting it all down. A little background. I have a 40 acre piece in northern MN that I am trying to improve. I have about 2 acres of food plots on it currently. The rest is forested. The property is really flat very little elevation change. About 1/3 is 8-10 year old poplar. The other 2/3 is 20/30 year old poplar. I am just guessing at the age of the trees I know the older trees are about 8-10 years from harvest. About 400 yard to my south is a 70acre alfalfa field and 1/4 mile to the north is another row crop ag field. the rest is forested.
I don't feel like my property is holding the numbers of deer I need/want it to. Most of deer pass through, even the ones that use the plots come from off the property. The young poplar does not seem to hold much maybe because it is located next to the Highway and a neighbors house. I never access the middle and north half of the property, I hear about high stem count in regards to bedding and deer comfort. What is a high stem count, what does it look like. On the older poplar when the leaves fall I can see 50-70 yards The property where the deer come form looks like mine. How do I hold them on mine with out clearcutting. What bedding options do I have.
 
It doesn't sound like you have much for thermal cover like Evergreens? If not adding some pines would help. It also sounds like you don't have much for woody browse like Dogwood, Ninebark etc?
 
Best way to manage quaking aspen stands are to clearcut them. Do it in 1 acre chunks if you don't want to clear cut the entire property. Quaking aspen needs full sun for best regeneration, and that's how you get a high stem count.
 
First post here. I have already received a wealth of knowledge here. I have searched and have not really found a thread that addresses my question. How to improve a stand of older poplar trees with out cutting it all down. A little background. I have a 40 acre piece in northern MN that I am trying to improve. I have about 2 acres of food plots on it currently. The rest is forested. The property is really flat very little elevation change. About 1/3 is 8-10 year old poplar. The other 2/3 is 20/30 year old poplar. I am just guessing at the age of the trees I know the older trees are about 8-10 years from harvest. About 400 yard to my south is a 70acre alfalfa field and 1/4 mile to the north is another row crop ag field. the rest is forested.
I don't feel like my property is holding the numbers of deer I need/want it to. Most of deer pass through, even the ones that use the plots come from off the property. The young poplar does not seem to hold much maybe because it is located next to the Highway and a neighbors house. I never access the middle and north half of the property, I hear about high stem count in regards to bedding and deer comfort. What is a high stem count, what does it look like. On the older poplar when the leaves fall I can see 50-70 yards The property where the deer come form looks like mine. How do I hold them on mine with out clearcutting. What bedding options do I have.
Is there a reason you don't want to or can't cut some down?
 
My property was logged the year before I bought it and the new growth came in really fast(2 years was about 8' tall) and the deer absolutely loved the new growth that was still within reach. Cutting won't set you back too much before it becomes a benefit. New growth growing about 4-5 feet per year.
 
Is there a reason you don't want to or can't cut some down?
Not totally opposed. I took an acre out this summer for one of the plots. I do plan on setting up a rotational clear cut in a couple of years. Cut half of the mature timber and then cut the other half about 5-6 years late. In the mean time I would like to optimize what I have as unobtrusive as I can. The timber on my land is the same age as the timber on my neighbors, where the deer bed and cross from.
 
I'd start by contacting the State Forestry department for your county, tell them what you hope to accomplish, and see what they have to say. It does not cost anything and they can give you a good starting point. After that, you might want to contact a private forester and get his input into a simple land management plan to guide your future activities. It's fun... good luck.
 
I guess the better stated question is. Can 20-30 year old poplar hold deer. Is that a high enough stem count. How old of a poplar stand should you start to consider clear cutting if timber revenue is not sought.
 
I understand you want to maximize your eventual timber sale but I think it'll be tough to do without timbering. Can you go through and maybe drop/hinge cut some of the lesser quality trees? Any that are knotty or twisted? I have permission to hunt a friends property. It was wide open with mature trees and was the same thing. Just a pass through property. He just had it timbered this year and it made a world of difference just with the tree tops on the ground for cover. I can't wait until it gets some understory coming up.
 
Not many. No reason for them to be there. Aspen that age are worthless for deer.
You northerners always screw me up with poplars and aspen. We have tulip poplars here which are I think in the same family as aspen but not really the same. They get to be very tall and straight and are pretty in demand right now thanks to the amish furniture makers. Are quaking aspen a valuable tree?
 
First post here. I have already received a wealth of knowledge here. I have searched and have not really found a thread that addresses my question. How to improve a stand of older poplar trees with out cutting it all down. A little background. I have a 40 acre piece in northern MN that I am trying to improve. I have about 2 acres of food plots on it currently. The rest is forested. The property is really flat very little elevation change. About 1/3 is 8-10 year old poplar. The other 2/3 is 20/30 year old poplar. I am just guessing at the age of the trees I know the older trees are about 8-10 years from harvest. About 400 yard to my south is a 70acre alfalfa field and 1/4 mile to the north is another row crop ag field. the rest is forested.
I don't feel like my property is holding the numbers of deer I need/want it to. Most of deer pass through, even the ones that use the plots come from off the property. The young poplar does not seem to hold much maybe because it is located next to the Highway and a neighbors house. I never access the middle and north half of the property, I hear about high stem count in regards to bedding and deer comfort. What is a high stem count, what does it look like. On the older poplar when the leaves fall I can see 50-70 yards The property where the deer come form looks like mine. How do I hold them on mine with out clearcutting. What bedding options do I have.
I had my 80 acres logged 5 years ago. My forester marked every area that had aspen to be clear cut. The woods are mostly hardwoods with over mature 40 year old aspen pockets with the biggest about 3 acres. After logging the aspen came in so thick that you can hardly walk thru it. I think I've read stem count can be up to 4000/ acre. It's been 5 years now and the deer trails are heavy in them but as far as bedding they seem to like the grassy/ shrub areas. I don't see any good reason not to cut the older aspen out. They only live 40 plus years and are just going to fall and rot anyways. They provide almost nothing at that size. Aspen hate shade, so by leaving some tall ones you will hurt the new regrowth. Sounds like you could use some diversity in your woods. Like trees said evergreens would be great. Balsam do well in shade. If you could get a spot to fill in with grass/ weeds and plant some shrubs randomly, that would be the ticket. It would be tuff with the aspen regrowth, but I heard they don't like annual cuttings. If the come in thick one year and then the next year brush hog them all down again. In the other areas I would promote their regrowth.
 
Few thoughts I could offer ya:

*Focus on contrast between your property and what's around you. My property is very similar to yours. Northern MN, flat, lots of poplar with some good stuff mixed in. One difference is there isn't much food, either plots or good regen near me. The government land around me is terribly overgrown and due for a logging. You could throw a football 50 yards clean in most of it. So I focus hard on the browse, plots, and cover. Water used to be everywhere before the drought hit. I go hard with the saw dropping all poplar, aspen, tag alder, ash, and diamond willow in my sanctuary. My sanctuary is 15 acres, and I aim to take out 1-2 acres/yr by hand. I'm in year 4 of that program, and it's really beginning to hold deer and for the first time this year, it pulled a few bucks all the way to the front of my property, and we got some in person encounters and shots off.

*Really look at what's in your understory. You may have lots of good stuff already there that just needs sunlight. For example, at first glance you'll see some oaks and that's it. But look closer, and there could be birch, tiny conifers, heavily browsed dogwood, beaked hazel, and arrowwood viburnum. Another great source of food and cover is ash. No single tree does as much good cut down as ash, between the forage in the tops, the stump sprouts, and the campfire wood. Deer by me will walk past nearly everything to eat ash browse in the winter. If you don't have much diversity underneath, you may be surprised what becomes browse there that isn't elsewhere. The deer by me pounded on diamond willow stump sprouts all summer.

*Look at types of cover. Break it into three types, and they all matter. You need cover to protect from the wind (stuff far from openings where the wind really whips). You need cover to protect from the cold (think dense taller conifer stands they can get under with some sun shining in from the south). Then there is visual cover from predators (pure ground clutter and stem count with lots of escape routes). When it matters they'll gravitate towards what they need.
 
You northerners always screw me up with poplars and aspen. We have tulip poplars here which are I think in the same family as aspen but not really the same. They get to be very tall and straight and are pretty in demand right now thanks to the amish furniture makers. Are quaking aspen a valuable tree.
Poppel, poplar, aspen all the same up here in the north woods. I got a good price for my aspen at the time, about the same as for my non saw timber maple and oak. It all depends if you are close to a mill. I heard in areas of MN you can't give it away. The mills in WI use it for mostly for paper,toilet and paper towels. My maple went for colored paper products.
 
Are quaking aspen a valuable tree?
Only if you are close to a mill/chipping facility that can use them for paper or poultry bedding.
 
Poppel, poplar, aspen all the same up here in the north woods. I got a good price for my aspen at the time, about the same as for my non saw timber maple and oak. It all depends if you are close to a mill. I heard in areas of MN you can't give it away. The mills in WI use it for mostly for paper,toilet and paper towels. My maple went for colored paper products.

Not the same as PatinPA is talking about. Tulip poplars are more like cottonwood but smoother bark and they grow straight as an arrow. They also grow fast and they get huge. I’ve seen tulip poplars two people couldn’t reach around. Valuable on the east coast.

To OP.
You’re neighbors have something holding the deer. I’d say if you don’t want to ruin your future lumber you may have to sacrifice some. Like only an acre here and there. If you do find the right acre(s).

South slope, 1/3 of the way down. Somewhere with some flat areas for bedding. Etc.
 
First post here. I have already received a wealth of knowledge here. I have searched and have not really found a thread that addresses my question. How to improve a stand of older poplar trees with out cutting it all down. A little background. I have a 40 acre piece in northern MN that I am trying to improve. I have about 2 acres of food plots on it currently. The rest is forested. The property is really flat very little elevation change. About 1/3 is 8-10 year old poplar. The other 2/3 is 20/30 year old poplar. I am just guessing at the age of the trees I know the older trees are about 8-10 years from harvest. About 400 yard to my south is a 70acre alfalfa field and 1/4 mile to the north is another row crop ag field. the rest is forested.
I don't feel like my property is holding the numbers of deer I need/want it to. Most of deer pass through, even the ones that use the plots come from off the property. The young poplar does not seem to hold much maybe because it is located next to the Highway and a neighbors house. I never access the middle and north half of the property, I hear about high stem count in regards to bedding and deer comfort. What is a high stem count, what does it look like. On the older poplar when the leaves fall I can see 50-70 yards The property where the deer come form looks like mine. How do I hold them on mine with out clearcutting. What bedding options do I have.



Sounds like one giant mono culture filled with lodgepole trees that are of no use to deer. You need edges, diversity and browse. If you want deer you need to get some of that stuff on the ground. Your food plots cant compete with the alfalfa field. Its likely the destination food source for every deer within a mile. The lowest hole in your bucket is a complete lack of diversity. Also sounds like you have zero thermal cover. Give me cover over food 10 out of 10 times when Im in close proximity to a destination food source. So many deer hunters think a food plot is some magical bullet for hunting. I'd start by planting those food plots to switch grass and confiers, and then start mowing down the aspen. All the best deer sign I have ever seen in the Chippewa National Forest has 3 key components. Conifers, edges, high/thick stem count that the deer can reach and browse. Food plots with a lack of cover and too much pressure are an excellent way to ensure that the deer only use your property at night.
 
Not the same as PatinPA is talking about. Tulip poplars are more like cottonwood but smoother bark and they grow straight as an arrow. They also grow fast and they get huge. I’ve seen tulip poplars two people couldn’t reach around. Valuable on the east coast.

To OP.
You’re neighbors have something holding the deer. I’d say if you don’t want to ruin your future lumber you may have to sacrifice some. Like only an acre here and there. If you do find the right acre(s).

South slope, 1/3 of the way down. Somewhere with some flat areas for bedding. Etc.
Yes, poplar is the genius that includes about 35 trees. Cottonwood and tulip poplar are in this genius. Black and white poplar are common in northern mn/WI. We don't have any tulip poplar up here as far as I know. Although aspen and poplar are different trees, since they are in the same group it seems everybody lumps them together. A lot like oak trees.
 
First post here. I have already received a wealth of knowledge here. I have searched and have not really found a thread that addresses my question. How to improve a stand of older poplar trees with out cutting it all down. A little background. I have a 40 acre piece in northern MN that I am trying to improve. I have about 2 acres of food plots on it currently. The rest is forested. The property is really flat very little elevation change. About 1/3 is 8-10 year old poplar. The other 2/3 is 20/30 year old poplar. I am just guessing at the age of the trees I know the older trees are about 8-10 years from harvest. About 400 yard to my south is a 70acre alfalfa field and 1/4 mile to the north is another row crop ag field. the rest is forested.
I don't feel like my property is holding the numbers of deer I need/want it to. Most of deer pass through, even the ones that use the plots come from off the property. The young poplar does not seem to hold much maybe because it is located next to the Highway and a neighbors house. I never access the middle and north half of the property, I hear about high stem count in regards to bedding and deer comfort. What is a high stem count, what does it look like. On the older poplar when the leaves fall I can see 50-70 yards The property where the deer come form looks like mine. How do I hold them on mine with out clearcutting. What bedding options do I have.

Stem count is the number of trees, and diameter classification measured per sampled area. This allows foresters, loggers, etc. to measure & compare different areas of a wooded lot for density& volume of marketable wood. They will sample multiple 100' x 100' square areas to estimate overall timber stand. Given the maturity of your trees and overhead canopy, you can have a low stem count compared to early successional forests. Deer, especially bucks, prefer high stem density with canopies of 10' - 14'. This is why edge feathering is a good tool. lower canopies can often have good plant & shrub growth. This type of area also reduces visual lines.

Stem count changes, where there are trails of higher density of stems and lower height trees/shrubs can exist in mature woods. These can become travel corridors in mature woods with high canopies.

I don't know anything than what you described about your property so I will share my experiences. My first property was 40 areas, very different property to hunt than the larger land i own know. On a small parcel such as yours, you need to have realistic expectations ... deer need 3 things ... water, food, & safe cover ...
- First ... understand that timber stand mgmt for pulp production and deer habitat mgmt are not mutually supportive goals.
- Second ... On a small parcel, unless there are truly unique features such as secluded access, minimal intrusion, heavy low story cover, lots of pines, rolling topography, etc. holding deer is very unlikely.
Forget what you have read or videos you have watched, believe what you eyes are telling you observing your property. IMHO ... small properties should be managed as travel/transition areas where you
can connect bedding, water, food etc. and intercept deer moving from point to point. Find existing travel trails and enlarge those to say 10'-15'. If you can get light in these areas you may see some
edge cover and browse grow enhancing the security & use of the trail.
- The young poplar does not seem to hold much maybe because it is located next to the Highway and a neighbors house. .... You have a noise & visual disruption issue. I would plant this entire property line
with spruce trees. Creating edge feathering and spruce screens along you property lines would also help.
- If you can see 50-70 yards, the deer can see twice as far, and hear your movement even farther. You need lots of pines/spruces, or low canopy trees/shrubs in your property to break up visual site lines.
Noise is different issue. Deer have amazing ears Huge sound receptors that can move in any direction. A car door closing, twig snapping, waking in rustling leaves cab be heard a long way by a deer.
- As stated above, you have a monotype with little or no diversity, very little browse, etc.
- Bedding? - I have watched deer bed in mature forests as long as they feel safe. A deer looks for visual sight & hearing to be alerted by an approaching threat. Very hard if not impossible to achieve on a
small property. You may have deer bedding on your property, but given it's make-up, good chance you are bumping them when you enter the woods.
- Stand placement & wind ... big consideration for any property, especially smaller ones. Wind may travel very easily in your situation.

There are a whole bunch of hunting strategies I could go into, but the most important would be to decide how and when you want to hunt (rut, early/late season, etc.) and reduce the amount of time you are on the property a month or two before hunting. Doesn't matter what you have on the trail camera if you enter too much and disturb the property. Or hunt when you ant and enjoy.

I have seen big deer taken off of small properties, takes a lot of discipline and specific tactics for the particular property.

Not trying to be negative, but unless your expectations are inline with your property characteristics, you will continue to be frustrated. The problem with planting internal shrubs & spruces is you will loose them when the loggers move in. If you want more deer, clear cut an area sooner. You'll be amazed at the browse that will pop up. You can then start to plant more cover.

Good luck!
 
I would follow thru with your current plan of clear cutting half the mature stand in a few years then clear cutting the remaining stand 8-10 years latter when the first clear cut is starting to lose it deer value. I would try and work some young oak trees into both of those areas now so when you do clear cut them the few oaks you start now have a fighting chance against the aspen/poplar whip’s. I’d also probably work in some balsam and/or spruce along that highway frontage and neighbors property typically poplar, balsam and spruce will grow together.
 
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