Plot basics

Bowsnbucks

5 year old buck +
For any of us who aren't AG-schooled, can someone post a basic guide for WHEN to mow, roll, or spray plot crops like various clovers, alfalfa, rye, wheat, chicory to get the most duration out of those plot crops?? (North-Central Pa. mountains - zone 5 & 6 border).

As a hunting camp with non-farming members (who are also the volunteer help - when we can get it), we strive to plant plots that can endure for several years with minimal maintenance and soil disturbance. So we end up with guys mowing or spraying WHENEVER they get time - not necessarily when it's the PROPER time. We practice the late July/early August brassica seeding, and the Labor Day-ish timing of seeding clovers, alfalfa, rye, wheat, chicory - but we aren't up to speed on WHEN to mow, roll, or spray these crops wisely - to get the most out of them. If we can get clovers to re-seed ....... that would be good, but not if the clover gets too tough to be attractive to deer. We have a PTO-driven, rear-mounted mower deck to mow with - JD 55 hp tractor we bought new 9 years ago. For rolling, we use our cultipacker. If possible, we would like to keep tillage to a minimum, and not rotate every plot every season. We recognize brassicas are a "one & done" seasonal that needs to be rotated!!!

If anyone sees errors in the timing of our seedings - please advise. All advice on mowing, rolling, spraying is welcome!!!
 
There are lots of factors that come into play for timing and one's availability is a factor as well. Soil temp is a factor for spring planting. Depending on technique and soil type, soil conditions can be a factor. The particulars of the seed mixes and techniques can come into play as well. I would say there is no single formula that always works for timing.

Here is one example just to show the interplay. Years ago I was planting soybeans in the spring. We had high deer populations at the time. If I planted too early, cold damp soil temps really impacted soybean growth. If I waited till the optimal soil temp and conditions, the timing of does dropping fawns meant that they would be hammering the beans hard before the beans had a chance to canopy which meant the beans had to deal with more competition from weeds. If the weather worked out just right and I hit the sweet spot in time, I got a great crop. That sweet spot in time moved from year to year and some years there was none.

I've even done spit planting some years. I like to add a light mix of brassica to WR and clover. If I plant at the optimal time for the brassica to produce large bulbs, the WR gets too mature to be attractive in late season. If I plant for the WR to by young, the brassica doesn't have enough growing season to produce large bulbs. So, some years I've broadcast the brassica first can come back and broadcast the WR and clover a couple weeks later.

One thing I will say, especially with clay soil, folks using heavy equipment have to be careful, especially with tillage. If soil is too wet, you can easily compress clay with a tractor. Tillage in wet conditions can really screw up the soil. I find that with my soil, it is better just to wait for good soil conditions than try to push it to plant at the right time for the crop.

Even farmers, planting for a living and are available every day to work on the farm, make judgement calls on a daily basis about when to plant. For weekend warriors planting food plots, especially those who have to travel to plant, it is not easy to find the "Proper" time to plant.

Sorry I can't be more helpful,

Jack
 
Hey Bows,
I can give you a basic idea for our region, but this is just what I have done in the past. I both frost seed (late-March) and over seed (mid-late April) my clover in the spring and also plant it in the fall.
This year I mowed my standing rye in late July (it had a bunch of clover growing under it), having seeded brassicas into it prior to the mowing.
Last year I seeded brassicas and clover together in late July (thinking like second to last weekend) and had a great stand of both. I followed it up with WR in late August, broadcast into the existing clover/brassica. Best plot I have ever grown and deer were in it till March.
This year I am doing something different...I will be mowing the rye in April (whenever the rye starts to get some height) after seeding the spring clover into it. I want a better clover stand, not a mature rye field. I think the existing clover will be sufficient enough to survive any grazing and will act as a cover crop for the new clover. (kinda what WI does with their berseem clover in their mixes).
Can't help with the spraying, as I only have sprayed to clear a field for a plot (apparently doing this in a drought is a bad idea).
Might be trying cleth this spring on my existing hayfield plot that didn't get a great grass kill last fall. Will probably mow, wait a bit, spray then seed if I need to go that route.
 
Bows-I read and re-read your posted questions. I wrote several responses and deleted all of them because I don't have answers to the questions you've asked! I think I wanted to steer in a different direction. My dilemma is wondering how spraying and mowing and rolling might extend the useful life of a perennial food plot. I get the thought but my head wants to dismiss any attempt to frame a useful answer because (in my head) duration is determined by many factors outside of human control - and some that are - but spraying, mowing, and rolling timings aren't in either category. I guess it's possible to screw it up but if you're asking the questions then I know you won't! So, what then are the major factors determining durability? I'll leave it an open question.

You mentioned clover and I want to share my position on self-seeding, over-seeding and mowing. The idea of clover self-seeding is grand and true, but I don't think it's effect is immediate and useful in the short-run. Clover seeds have a hard coat which inhibits immediate germination when dropped. It might take years of weathering to crack that seed coat enough to allow adequate moisture into the germplasm. It's a good thing for clover survival. It means there's time for the seed to get INTO the soil where germination and establishment can be most successful.

Broadcast over-seeding and frost seeding are only a little more successful when using commercially processed seed because an attempt is made to mechanically crack the seed coat. Even then the seed still needs to find a place either in the soil or close enough to it to germinate and get a root into the soil where there is adequate sustainable moisture for the young plant. Research would seem to indicate an average germination rate of 30%-40% with possibilities for more or less.

Mowing clover? I do but I doubt it's necessary - not for any reason. Well...maybe. My number one reason for mowing is to keep weed seed heads from maturing and dropping into the clover plot. Palatability? No doubt a mature clover plant at seed maturity is stem-ey and tough and will die. At the same time though, when growing conditions are right, the plant starts a new cycle of tender and tasty growth.

I don't think that's what you wanted to hear. It's what I wanted to write...
 
Just to provide a different perspective on Farmer Dan's mowing approach, here is my experience. I used to mow my clover as a form of weed control. In the old days, they recommended mowing clover for deer to increase quality. More recent studies indicate that really isn't the case. As I became more weed tolerant (particularly for broadleaf weeds), I began taking a different approach.

I still use best practices when establishing perennial clover. I plant it in the fall with a Winter Rye nurse crop. The next spring, each time the WR get much over a foot tall, I mow it back to release the clover and get a little more light in. After that first spring, when the clover is established, I change my mowing pattern.

I now mow once a year just before the season. Before I mow, you would not even know there was clover in the field unless you get on your hands an knees. It just looks like a field of weeds. I mow just as our fall rains come and as the cooler nights favor the clover. It bounces back strong. I think the weeds have a protective effect by shading the clover in the summer. Nature abhors a monoculture. There is a lot of time and cost involved in trying to bend nature far enough to maintain a monoculture of clover. Deer certainly don't need a monoculture. In fact, I often see them eating weeds in the clover as much as the clover itself. The mix of clover and weeds is good for both deer and the soil.

Over time, grasses do take over. With Durana, that takes 7 to 10 years. If I'm too busy to rotate crops, I can usually get a few more years out of the field by spraying it with 1 qt/ac gly right before a good rain in the fall. This suppresses the clover and kills the grasses. I then like to drill WR and GHR into the field. The WR and GHR germinates and then the clover bounces back from the root system. The clover will last a few more years, but eventually I need to rotate.

I like to rotate to an N seeking crop. Buckwheat and Sorghum are a nice mix planted in the spring, but there are a lot of options depending on your situation. After year of the rotation, I'll start over and replant clover in the fall.

Thanks,

Jack
 
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Bows-I read and re-read your posted questions. I wrote several responses and deleted all of them because I don't have answers to the questions you've asked! I think I wanted to steer in a different direction. My dilemma is wondering how spraying and mowing and rolling might extend the useful life of a perennial food plot. I get the thought but my head wants to dismiss any attempt to frame a useful answer because (in my head) duration is determined by many factors outside of human control - and some that are - but spraying, mowing, and rolling timings aren't in either category. I guess it's possible to screw it up but if you're asking the questions then I know you won't! So, what then are the major factors determining durability? I'll leave it an open question.
I wasn't clear EITHER, Dan !!! What I was getting at was the goal of having a plot that can have mixed crops (rye, oats, various clovers, some turnips & radishes, chicory, etc.) and keep it "cycling" from year to year without having to start from scratch each year. That would save tractor diesel, time / labor, and disturbing the soil too much (as in minimum tillage / improving the soil ). We typically do most of our plot planting from late July to around Labor Day / Sept. 10th. I know the oats will winter-kill, and the turnips & radishes will feed into the winter - then decay. That'll leave clovers and rye for the following spring & summer. My question is - when to terminate the rye (either by spraying or rolling it down ....... or mowing??) after overseeding some other plot crop into the clovers and rye thatch??

I'm looking for a guide to keep things growing (that grow well together in a mixed plot) to minimize tillage each time we plant SOME food plots. I realize some plot crops need fresh starts and aren't easily overseeded into existing plots.

With all the info about NOT plowing, discing, harrowing too much ( to improve / preserve the soil ), I just need some guidance & ideas on what mixes to initially plant - then spray / roll / or lightly disc at the proper time - then overseed with a succeeding mix of complimentary crops to keep the plot going for a few years.

As an example ........ we typically plant clovers & chicory with rye grain for a nurse crop. If we tossed in some turnips and radishes into that plot, what would be the advice for the following spring & summer to keep that plot going (cycling)?? WHEN to roll or mow the rye?? I assume it would be best to overseed more of something before rolling or mowing the rye - more turnips & radishes ?? Buckwheat?? Peas??

The only "farming" I ever did was growing a BIG vegetable garden with my Dad for about 27 years. No succeeding crops that "cycled" from one years to the next. You AG guys can do this "follow-up / cycling / rotational" stuff in your sleep!!!

Thanks for your response!
 
Just to provide a different perspective on Farmer Dan's mowing approach, here is my experience. I uses to mow my clover as a form of weed control. In the old days, they recommended mowing clover for deer to increase quality. More recent studies indicate that really isn't the case. As I became more weed tolerant (particularly for broadleaf weeds), I began taking a different approach.

I still use best practices when establishing perennial clover. I plant it in the fall with a Winter Rye nurse crop. The next spring, each time the WR get much over a foot tall, I mow it back to release the clover and get a little more light in. After that first spring, when the clover is established, I change my mowing pattern.

I now mow once a year just before the season. Before I mow, you would not even know there was clover in the field unless you get on your hands an knees. It just looks like a field of weeds. I mow just as our fall rains come and as the cooler nights favor the clover. It bounces back strong. I think the weeds have a protective effect by shading the clover in the summer. Nature abhors a monoculture. There is a lot of time and cost involved in trying to bend nature far enough to maintain a monoculture of clover. Deer certainly don't need a monoculture. In fact, I often see them eating weeds in the clover as much as the clover itself. The mix of clover and weeds is good for both deer and the soil.

Over time, grasses do take over. With Durana, that takes 7 to 10 years. If I'm too busy to rotate crops, I can usually get a few more years out of the field by spraying it with 1 qt/ac gly right before a good rain in the fall. This suppresses the clover and kills the grasses. I then like to drill WR and GHR into the field. The WR and GHR germinates and then the clover bounces back from the root system. The clover will last a few more years, but eventually I need to rotate.

I like to rotate to an N seeking crop. Buckwheat and Sorghum are a nice mix planted in the spring, but there are a lot of options depending on your situation. After year of the rotation, I'll start over and replan
Thanks for this info!! I'm open to ALL advice & experience.

We aren't trying to get a spotless, 100% perfect plot. We're OK with some weeds - as long as they don't completely take over. Grasses are easy enough to kill with cleth. The broadleaf weeds are what we contend with most. Is 2-4D or 2-4Db the best one for broadleaf weeds in clover?? Don't want to kill the clover ....... just keep the broadleaf weeds at bay (when necessary).

When you mow your rye in the spring, how does the rye respond?? Does it grow back with a vengeance, or does it get stunted?? Rye clippings just decay and add OM to the soil??

I was thinking about trying "Fixation Balansa" clover because the reports are that it produces a lot of hard seed, so having to overseed is less necessary. It supposedly establishes a good seed bank for itself. No experience with it, though.
We have no drill - and I can't see us buying one any time soon, so we'll be broadcasting our plot seeds by hand or with a powered, rack-mounted spreader on a 4-wheeler.

Hoping to get a few longer-lasting, mixed plots without having to start from scratch each year.
 
You may be asking a lot to have annuals in general reseend year after year. It may depend on the specifics of your area, but if I lived in the north, I don't think I'd plant for summer. I'd just let the fields grow up in weeds and spray, broadcast, and cultipack for fall. But because I'm trying to do QDM further south, I need to cover my summer stress period.

As for best practices for planting perennial clover, when I mow WR, it does not die. It continues to fight weeds and take up resources from weeds. Whether it produces heads or not depends on how often I mow. It still dies naturally in summer. I'm simply making sure my clover get sun and is not slower to establish because of shading.

I've posted this picture many times before:

01814a24-edac-4ef4-aa57-8aa9e41d13bd.jpg


This was done with used Kasco no-till Versadrill that I bought for 3K. You can search the forum for more on the good, bad, and ugly of that drill. The field had established clover in it. 1/2 of the field was sprayed with 1 qt/ac gly and the other half was bushhogged flat to the ground almost scalping to suppress the clover. I then drilled radish into the clover. I can't tell any difference. Others have reported suppressing clover and broadcasting and cultipacking. I have not tried that myself. While the cheap Kasco drill has plenty of issues, it works very well for this task. You could use any fast growing annual for drilling into clover. Something you might want to experiment with.

I have a few partners and we all need to be in sync. Even if they had been on board, I personally could not justify paying for a big-boy no-till drill for food plots. This little 4' Kasco is far from the perfect tool. The biggest issue it has is dealing with trash. It wants to collect and block the seed tubes. If I manage my plots well so there is little debris, it works fine. That is why I love it for drilling into clover. There is no debris to deal with.

As for annual clover, in my area, I like Crimson and Medium Red works well as a short-lived perennial. I did try fixation Balansa but it did not reseed as well for me. It may be my soil or climate, but I went back to Crimson as an annual.

Thanks,

Jack
 
You may be asking a lot to have annuals in general reseend year after year.
Not annuals for reseeding. I wanted to know what plot mixes I can plant, that with timely rolling / mowing / spraying, can be overseeded into to keep a plot going for several years. I know annuals won't reseed themselves. Our typical beginning plot mix I detailed in post #6 above. This V V V V is that paragraph I copied below. I'm looking for crop varieties that would mix well with clovers under the rye thatch if it's rolled or mowed. Some crops don't grow well together - don't want to just throw something down and have it flop - or overtake the established plot crop. Turnips & radishes?? Peas?? Something else ??

As an example ........ we typically plant clovers & chicory with rye grain for a nurse crop. If we tossed in some turnips and radishes into that plot, what would be the advice for the following spring & summer to keep that plot going (cycling)?? WHEN to roll or mow the rye?? I assume it would be best to overseed more of something before rolling or mowing the rye - more turnips & radishes ?? Buckwheat?? Peas??
 
You write - I'm looking for crop varieties that would mix well with clovers under the rye thatch if it's rolled or mowed. Some crops don't grow well together

I think your asking a lot especially where you are. The NW corner of the county where you are located isn't exactly the garden spot of the world. I'd bet your topsoils are thin and shallow. Makes availability of stored moisture and soil held plant food sketchy. The growing season is short. Most crops don't grow well together for long under those conditions. And multiple types of plants in the same field at the same time sounds to me like a strategy counter to what you want to do. Maybe I'm wrong.

If you plant clover and a nurse crop in the fall, throw in some turnips and radishes is you must, then your objective should be to run a fantastic plot of clover for many years. Keep throwing other crap in the clover and you defeat your objective. Assume you agree with me. Just for a minute. If you plant rye as a nurse crop to your clover and you feel the need to mow or roll it I think you planted it too thick. But, suppose you do. The nurse crop is meant to improve growing conditions that the clover would experience in its absence.

Clover is a cool season crop. It grows well in the spring and fall. Spring can be difficult. It can be hot. The cover crop (rye) provides some shade. The spring flush of weeds can be held back by your cover crop giving your clover a better chance at a good beginning. Leave it until it ceases to do its function. If the rye is too thick and providing too much shade for the clover mow it. If its not too thick leave it as long as it provides some (some) shade which minimizes soil moisture evaporation, but before it goes to seed - unless you want some rye re-seeding in the fall.

Again, I don't think I wrote what you wanted to hear.
 
Not annuals for reseeding. I wanted to know what plot mixes I can plant, that with timely rolling / mowing / spraying, can be overseeded into to keep a plot going for several years. I know annuals won't reseed themselves. Our typical beginning plot mix I detailed in post #6 above. This V V V V is that paragraph I copied below. I'm looking for crop varieties that would mix well with clovers under the rye thatch if it's rolled or mowed. Some crops don't grow well together - don't want to just throw something down and have it flop - or overtake the established plot crop. Turnips & radishes?? Peas?? Something else ??
You need seed soil contact and enough light for seed to germinate. So, it is pretty tough seeding over perennials unless you suppress them. That is why I put in the part about a cheap drill. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding something. If you are working with annuals, they are self terminating.

One option is to plant your annuals for fall, and then just let the cereal head out. You could then terminate the WR in time for the next fall plant.

Here is an example of what I do, but it may not be right for your area.

I plant a fall mix of WR/CC/GHR/PTT. The brassica component is less than 2 lbs/ac. The WR is the fall attractant. GHR tops are too. Deer eventually hit the PT later in the year. The next spring, the WR takes off and so does the Crimson Clover. The WR is soon too rank , but deer are eating the CC. When things warm up, because I want summer coverage, I broadcast Buckwheat and Sunn Hemp into the standing WR. I then cultipack it and spray the WR with gly because the WR is too early for a cultipacker to terminate it.

In the fall, I terminate the summer plot and re-plant the same mix.

What I'm suggesting is that if you are far enough north that summer food is not a big issue, simply let that WR head out. (You could also use WW). The seed heads do provide some food over the summer as does the CC.

For fall you would plant the same mix.

Now here are a few concerns. First, even though you are planting a mix, it is the same mix year after year and the legume is CC. With me planting for summer, the Sunn Hemp is a big N fixer. It helps with variety and provides the N for the WR and brassica.

So, there is one example of year on year planting. How this particular regiment would do in your particular area is questionable. For example CC is an annual clover, but it acts like a reseeding annual in my area. It may not in yours.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Throw a bunch of stuff out there (with some intentionality) and see what happens. Most of the things deer love to eat are very cheap when it comes to seed. Almost anything will grow with clover if you can get it to sunlight, with the exception of more legumes if the clover is already thick. If I could go back and start from scratch, I'd put 1 cup of dutch white clover per acre, and put weaker legumes in at a higher rate (alfalfa, trefoil, sweet clover, fixation). Then I'd crank up the plaintain and chicory, top it with rye, flax, and japanese millet.
 
I think your asking a lot especially where you are. The NW corner of the county where you are located isn't exactly the garden spot of the world. I'd bet your topsoils are thin and shallow. Makes availability of stored moisture and soil held plant food sketchy. The growing season is short. Most crops don't grow well together for long under those conditions. And multiple types of plants in the same field at the same time sounds to me like a strategy counter to what you want to do.
Our camp has several long-established fields (fairly flat) because it's an old farmstead. The fields are clay-ish loam - all the surrounding woods are sandy, thin soil & leaf duff. Soil map says our (field) soil is "Dekalb Channery Loam" if that tells anyone anything. The fields drain fairly well - no standing water after it rains, and it tills pretty nicely. We can grow pretty good crops in the fields, which we've been working for a number of years. We lime and fertilize them. Green-up is usually late April at camp - first frost around October 15th to 20th.

Dan - I have nothing against what you're posting here, if you think I'm being argumentative. I appreciate your posts!!! I'm here to learn. I read on here how some guys plant mixed plots, and as seasons change, they overseed other things into existing plots - then roll or mow those plots - and keep them going for several years without starting from scratch. That's all I'm after - what crops work well together - and WHEN to roll, mow, or spray some chemical to terminate the unwanted remainder.

I read and try to absorb ALL things I read on here. I'm grateful to ALL who post advice, experiences, and first-hand knowledge.
 
For example CC is an annual clover,
It's a once & done here - no re-seeding at our place. I like planting it - it just doesn't survive our winters. No problem planting CC as a summer crop. It flowers and does well until late fall. We try to plant various red clovers more because it overwinters for us.
 
It's a once & done here - no re-seeding at our place. I like planting it - it just doesn't survive our winters. No problem planting CC as a summer crop. It flowers and does well until late fall. We try to plant various red clovers more because it overwinters for us.
Sounds like you’re doing pretty well.

Go to food plot section and read crimson and camo pinned thread on top on throw and mow. It has great info about doing the things you’re asking, not just throw and mow. Long but good read.
 
Thanks Omicron!! I didn't see the sticky at the top. I remember seeing it some time ago in the regular threads. I'll give it a read. Again - thanks for the "heads-up" !!
 
Thanks Omicron!! I didn't see the sticky at the top. I remember seeing it some time ago in the regular threads. I'll give it a read. Again - thanks for the "heads-up" !!
You’re welcome! I go back and browse that thread every once in a while. It’s so good.
 
As an example - in the thread titled "Hairy or chickling vetch - deer food?? " - Buckhunter10 posted a pic at post #10 in that thread of a mixed plot of clovers, chicory, rye, vetch, etc. The question I have is this - If you didn't want to completely start over from scratch with that plot in his pic by terminating it completely ........ what would you do to it to keep it going for several years??? What processes would you use, what seeds to overseed into it, etc. ?? If you'd mow it - at what stage would you mow it?? Our members can jump on a tractor and mow any plot - but we may not mow at the SMARTEST timing for the plot. These are the things I'm / we're trying to learn.
 
It's a once & done here - no re-seeding at our place. I like planting it - it just doesn't survive our winters. No problem planting CC as a summer crop. It flowers and does well until late fall. We try to plant various red clovers more because it overwinters for us.
So that means you need to look into clovers to see if there is something that fits your needs. One thing I do is to rest my fields from herbicides from time to time. Each year I'll pick a field that has not be rested for a while. I'll substitute Medium Red for the crimson in my fall mix. I then won't do anything to that field until the following fall and all I will do is to mow it. It will be dominated by medium red clover. The following fall I'll mow again. It will be a healthy mix of weeds and medium red clover. By the following spring, the field will have had two years without herbicides and I'll working it back into the rotation.

My point here is that Medium Red might somehow be able to play a role in bouncing back the next spring. It might let you plant a mix every other year. If you would divide your fields in half and start a mix like in half of them one year and the other half the next, you might end up planting half the fields each year and have the other half in medium red. (when I say divide your fields in half, I don't mean all of your fields, just the ones you want to try this technique with).

Just some thoughts to consider.

Thanks,

Jack
 
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Thanks, Jack, for the info!!
We use medium red and other reds (Starfire & Marathon) pretty regularly. We also plant Alice and Ladino white clovers along with chicory. We aren't afraid of some weeds either - like you and others have said. We don't spray a lot of chemicals, generally - only when it's necessary (like a total burn-down to start a fresh plot.) We've planted mixed plots before, but were never sure of what to do - wisely - with them after a season, so as to NOT ruin what's left in the plot. Trying to avoid mistakes that cost $$ and food resources for the deer.

Some of you guys on here with more experience at AG stuff seem to know what to plant with what, WHEN to mow / roll / or spray a plot, and what plot crops to follow with in your plots. I / we aren't schooled in seeding rates in a mix of, say - red clover, chicory, radishes, and rye - to avoid drowning out one or more plot components because we overloaded a variety. We can spread seeds - but we may make mistakes in WHAT we mix together, HOW MUCH of each to put in the mix for a good plot, and what FOLLOW-UP crops will work after the initial plot has passed its prime.
 
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