Plot basics

[yoderjac]

Thanks, Jack, for the info!!
We use medium red and other reds (Starfire & Marathon) pretty regularly. We also plant Alice and Ladino white clovers along with chicory. We aren't afraid of some weeds either - like you and others have said. We don't spray a lot of chemicals, generally - only when it's necessary (like a total burn-down to start a fresh plot.) We've planted mixed plots before, but were never sure of what to do - wisely - with them after a season, so as to NOT ruin what's left in the plot. Trying to avoid mistakes that cost $$ and food resources for the deer.

Some of you guys on here with more experience at AG stuff seem to know what to plant with what, WHEN to mow / roll / or spray a plot, and what plot crops to follow with in your plots. I / we aren't schooled in seeding rates in a mix of, say - red clover, chicory, radishes, and rye - to avoid drowning out one or more plot components because we overloaded a variety. We can spread seeds - but we may make mistakes in WHAT we mix together, HOW MUCH of each to put in the mix for a good plot, and what FOLLOW-UP crops will work after the initial plot has passed its prime.

Just a couple thoughts:

As for seeding rates for deer, I find that to be very local. A lot of trial and error goes into my seeding rates. You can find general guidelines all over the place, but soils, techniques, and other factors come into play. For example, if I surface broadcast and cultipack WR/Clover and cultipack or I just surface broadcast before a good rain, I see almost no difference in germination. On the other hand, if I surface broadcast buckwheat before a rain I get much lower germinate than if I surface broadcast and culitpack it. So, different seed, responds differently to different techniques (at least with my soil). That means, when you mix seed, different sees may respond differently. Another factor can be seed predation. Large seeds are generally easier for turkey to find and eat then small seeds.

I find that if you start with a general guidance, you can adjust from year to year and see the difference. I don't find seeding rates to be critical. There are a few exceptions. Brassica can easily shade out other components in a mix. I never plant monocultures of brassica. They don't do well without fertilization which is a big cost, especially N. I find that if I keep the brassica component of a mix under 2 lbs/ac, I get sufficient brassica and they don't shade out other crops. Now there is some generalization there when I say Brassica. For example there are a lot more turnip seeds in a pound than radish seeds.

Keep in mind that less crop can sometimes be more deer food. Here is an example. One year I planted eagle soybeans with a light mix of corn and put up a gallagher-style e-fence. The plot was very thick. You could see the browsing around the outside of the fence where they could reach in. When I took the fence down, I expected to see deer all through the plot, and not that deer were not in the plot, but by far, most of the browsing continued around the perimeter. The plot had grown so thick, could could not shoot into it from a box blind, and our youth day was coming up. As hard as it was to do emotionally, I bushhogged shooting lanes through those beans and broadcast our fall mix into the lanes. Youth day went well, but guess what happened over the next few weeks? The browsing was not just around the perimeter, but along all those lanes as well. Deer just preferred the edge. So while I removed crop, I actually increased the amount of food going into the bellies of deer from that plot. Just one example of how removing food can be beneficial.

Another consideration regarding "NOT ruin what's left in the plot.", is to step back to the objective and rethink things. If you are planting primarily for attraction, if deer are using the plot during the targeted attraction period, you objective has been met regardless of what is left in the plot after that. If you objective is feeding deer for QDM, the plot should be targeted to provide food during a specific stress period. The only food that is contributing to your objective is food that ends up in the belly of a deer during that stress period. Anything left in the plot isn't helping deer. Keep in mind that food plots are there to supplement native foods during times when nature is stingy.

The next thing along the same lines is this. Each plant has a "peak period" when it is highly nutritious and attractive to deer. Once past this period, the quality of the plant declines even though it may still be growing. When you terminate a crop at the right time, you are NOT ruining anything. You are returning nutrients into the soil and building OM to improve nutrient cycling. You are allowing new and potentially different plants to germinate and grow and go through the peak period keeping the plot attractive and nutritous.

Having said this, you don't want to "clean the table" by terminating all of your plots at once or exposing your ground directly to the elements. A smart plan will have some plots with perennials that are still providing quality food when other plots that are primarily annuals are terminated and replanted. While there can be some overlap, using annuals as nurse crops for perennials or using short-lived perennials to help transition from one year to the next as we discussed, I think it is best to generally separate into perennial plots and annual plots.

Just more to consider.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Our plots are to feed deer year-round. Our camp region is one of mature hardwoods with VERY little AG - only small food plots at other camps in our mountains. Very little browse is available to deer in woods like we have. Mountain laurel is a starvation food if there's nothing else available. So our plots are what keep our deer healthier, have more fawns, and have bigger bodies and racks. Before we planted food plots, we had scarce deer, small deer, fewer fawns, smaller racks. Since we've been planting plots, we have more deer around, bigger deer, bigger racks. The change is very noticeable. So it's not so much trying to attract for a specific season - it's year-round nutrition. Once the oaks drop acorns here, the food plots get less use. Archery season is a crap-shoot when the acorns drop - food plots are no big draw then.

We're more interested in year-round nutrition, especially in winter after the seasons are closed. January into early April is the big stress period, then things start to green up. But ...... we need spring & summer nutrition for our deer, too. As I said .... browse is SCARCE in these mountains, so the spring / summer food is vital to fawns and healthy deer. Plots with a mix of goodies that take us through are what we want. Smart mixes of crops that we can keep going by overseeding new things into them as seasons change.

We learned that planting rye too early gives bigger, tougher rye the deer don't seem to like later. Planting it too late - you don't get much fall / winter crop size - not much to dig through snow to get at. I also learned on this forum that if planting a plot of mixed brassicas (PTT, GHR, DER, & Pasja forage brassica) - plant them in late July to give them a chance to get growing - and then plant rye into it around Labor Day since rye doesn't need as long to get established as the brassicas. Rye germinates easily, pretty much in any condition with no special treatment (as some on here have said, "in a sidewalk crack or the bed of their truck.")

How's this for an idea (opinions please!!! ) ...... spring-plant a mix of CC, red clover, white clover, chicory, and some oats?? The CC and oats won't survive our winter - leaving us with red & white clover plus chicory. What other things would you guys suggest to overseed with for fall nutrition & winter food?? Rye I would imagine - but anything else???

 

[bigboreblr]

That clover you got bowsnbucks, spread some now. Crimson clover is not a great choice up by us. Although, it' is a good nursery crop to keep the deer out of the young perennial clover, if redoing a plot.

Frost seeding works great.

Far as fall plots go, I like daikon raddish better than turnips. Seems the deer go after them later in the year, they eat the tops in the fall.

That finish mower, make sure it's not shrouded under there. No vertial enclosed metal near it. Works better than a brush hog in my opinion for food plots. Chops things up better.

Mowing.... Ive clamed down a bit on this subject. IF you see brown and black clover heads, the seeds are fully matured. There will be a mix of these and flowering heads. But, once you see those heads, you can mow. Once a month is as close as you should get. Different varieties of clover only seed up once, others are more prolific. The more you mow, the more you should frost seed in the winter.

I do clover n weeds at home. Deer enjoy it quite a bit. You can spray once or twice with clethodim to get perennial grasses in check. IT does kill all grains as well as crabgrass.

Some do a late spring spray with roundup to kill young weeds in a clover plot.

Small plot deer hammer, they'll not totally kill a clover n weed plot. But, small plot spots with little else to offer far a s browse usually mean you may need a more intensive food plot. Always plant a mix if you're going from till. I really like plotspike forage feast you can get from tractor supply.

 

[yoderjac]

Our plots are to feed deer year-round. Our camp region is one of mature hardwoods with VERY little AG - only small food plots at other camps in our mountains. Very little browse is available to deer in woods like we have. Mountain laurel is a starvation food if there's nothing else available. So our plots are what keep our deer healthier, have more fawns, and have bigger bodies and racks. Before we planted food plots, we had scarce deer, small deer, fewer fawns, smaller racks. Since we've been planting plots, we have more deer around, bigger deer, bigger racks. The change is very noticeable. So it's not so much trying to attract for a specific season - it's year-round nutrition. Once the oaks drop acorns here, the food plots get less use. Archery season is a crap-shoot when the acorns drop - food plots are no big draw then.

We're more interested in year-round nutrition, especially in winter after the seasons are closed. January into early April is the big stress period, then things start to green up. But ...... we need spring & summer nutrition for our deer, too. As I said .... browse is SCARCE in these mountains, so the spring / summer food is vital to fawns and healthy deer. Plots with a mix of goodies that take us through are what we want. Smart mixes of crops that we can keep going by overseeding new things into them as seasons change.

We learned that planting rye too early gives bigger, tougher rye the deer don't seem to like later. Planting it too late - you don't get much fall / winter crop size - not much to dig through snow to get at. I also learned on this forum that if planting a plot of mixed brassicas (PTT, GHR, DER, & Pasja forage brassica) - plant them in late July to give them a chance to get growing - and then plant rye into it around Labor Day since rye doesn't need as long to get established as the brassicas. Rye germinates easily, pretty much in any condition with no special treatment (as some on here have said, "in a sidewalk crack or the bed of their truck.")

How's this for an idea (opinions please!!! ) ...... spring-plant a mix of CC, red clover, white clover, chicory, and some oats?? The CC and oats won't survive our winter - leaving us with red & white clover plus chicory. What other things would you guys suggest to overseed with for fall nutrition & winter food?? Rye I would imagine - but anything else???

Keep in mind that every location has a different BCC. If you don't have significant scale to change the BCC using a variety of habitat tools, you are pushing a bolder up a hill with your nose. An expectation to feed deer year round is unrealistic for most. If you can't change the BCC, in the general area (say 1,000 acres or more), your area will support some number of deer. In that situation, QDM is about improving the health of that number of deer by providing food during stress periods when nature does not. A stress period is a temporary period where a deer population within the BCC of the area has a seasonal lack of quality food.

We often have goals that are unrealistic when it comes to deer. If you want to feed deer year-round, food plots are not the answer. In a big woods environment, timber management is probably the best tool. It can have the large scale impacts to increase the BCC. Food plots are a supplement. If you are expecting more from them, you are not likely to have success.

I know this isn't what you want to hear.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Keep in mind that every location has a different BCC. If you don't have significant scale to change the BCC using a variety of habitat tools, you are pushing a bolder up a hill with your nose. An expectation to feed deer year round is unrealistic for most. If you can't change the BCC, in the general area (say 1,000 acres or more), your area will support some number of deer. In that situation, QDM is about improving the health of that number of deer by providing food during stress periods when nature does not. A stress period is a temporary period where a deer population within the BCC of the area has a seasonal lack of quality food.

We often have goals that are unrealistic when it comes to deer. If you want to feed deer year-round, food plots are not the answer. In a big woods environment, timber management is probably the best tool. It can have the large scale impacts to increase the BCC. Food plots are a supplement. If you are expecting more from them, you are not likely to have success.

I know this isn't what you want to hear.

We have had some logging done on our property, and some due to gas pipelines in the immediate area, but the amount of browse isn't enough to keep any number of deer happy & healthy. So we plant plots. We'll do what we can.

 

[yoderjac]

We have had some logging done on our property, and some due to gas pipelines in the immediate area, but the amount of browse isn't enough to keep any number of deer happy & healthy. So we plant plots. We'll do what we can.

It is not just about logging. It is about strategic timber management. Placing clear-cuts in strategic locations. Keeping them in early succession with prescribed fire. Planning to have a patchwork of timber and openings in different stages of succession.

This takes time and a lot of planning. We used a bunch of professionals, department of forestry, USDA biologists, DWR biologists, private forester and such. We developed a forest stewardship plan. We use a number of USDA programs to help defer the cost of firebreaks and prescribed burns. I think of logging as a timber company coming in and clear cutting or select cutting a large block of timber. Why? It is efficient and more profitable. I I think of strategic timber management plan tries to strike a balance between timber value and wildlife.

We have produced much more deer food and increased our BCC through timber management. Food plots help plug the holes. We sometime think of things like we produce quality food in our food plots, so deer will come there to get food. Deer are browsers by nature. They distribute across the landscape based on a wide variety of factors, including social structure, food, terrain, weather, and many more. Under some conditions, they group up as in yarding. Deer eat as they move through the landscape. There are all kinds of native foods we don't think of. Mushrooms grow in canopied mature woods. While they do seek out quality food, most of their diet across the full year comes from native foods, even in ag country.

When I was growing up, I hated planted pines and loved hardwoods. Pines just seemed like an endless monocultures with no food. As I've grown and learned over time, I've come to love pines. I will always want some oak hardwoods, especially around riparian buffers, but pines mature much faster than hardwoods. They can be thinned and different rates to let in sunlight. We can burn them to let the light hit the soil. Sections can be clear-cut and replanted. A clear-cut produces way more deer food and cover than any food plot until it canopies. That is between 5 and 10 years of great food and instead of a cost, there is a small profit. Even when you subtract out the cost of replanting and burning and such.. One big factor is the scale. Food is distributed over hundreds of acres. This allows familial doe gropes to distribute across the landscape better.

This is not effective on a small scale. Many loggers won't touch a small tract for thinning. Not everyone can use timber management but it is a great tool for those who can.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I think of strategic timber management plan tries to strike a balance between timber value and wildlife.

That's what we've been doing on our property for about 24 years now.

 

[yoderjac]

That's what we've been doing on our property for about 24 years now.

If that is the case, you should not have an issue with food availability year-round. There should be plenty of quality deer food in the patchwork of clear-cuts you are keeping in early succession with fire. Again, the food plots should supplement this during periods when natural quality foods dip. Here, many of our quality natural food dry up in the heat of summer. We can have some stress in winter but it usually isn't real bad. Further north, winter can be the primary stress period when quality foods dry up.

We have a DWR biologist coming out on Thursday to do a walk through our clear-cuts. He will be assessing the amount of deer food available and looking at stem count for encroaching hardwoods. He will be helping us decide which ones need prescribed fire. We will probably doing one or two dormant season burns this year. I'm the food plot guy in our group. When we first started this years ago, I was amazed at the volume of quality food the biologist pointed out on his walk-thru.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I'm not about to read all of the posts. My experience with clover/chicory are as follows.

Mow around Memorial Day and again around Labor day. Provides decent weed control as well as taking out the winter cereals.

I don't have a cultipacker but have tried crimping clover/chicory. My goal was to skip the Memorial Day crimping to let the clovers and chicory go to seed and crimp around Labor Day. It worked well for the clovers and they bounced back well. I think it did kill the vast majority of the chicory though. As farmer Dan mentioned, I didn't really notice any re seeding from doing it that way.

I have since decreased the amount of ground I have in clover/chicory and the deer do the vast majority of the mowing for me. If I did need to control it in some manner I would be going back to mowing at the times stated above.

I have noticed that soybeans do fantastic when following a brasica plot. I have also had good success broadcasting clovers into them the following spring and getting a good take.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

If that is the case, you should not have an issue with food availability year-round. There should be plenty of quality deer food in the patchwork of clear-cuts you are keeping in early succession with fire.

We don't do fire there. The way the winds swirl in our mountains and hollows - it'd be a disaster. Not risking neighboring properties.
We have a planned exclusion-fence area to keep deer out so new forb growth and tree seedlings get a chance to establish. Even with that - once the fence comes down after 6 to 8 years or so - we still need plot nutrition.

 

[omicron1792]

We don't do fire there. The way the winds swirl in our mountains and hollows - it'd be a disaster. Not risking neighboring properties.
We have a planned exclusion-fence area to keep deer out so new forb growth and tree seedlings get a chance to establish. Even with that - once the fence comes down after 6 to 8 years or so - we still need plot nutrition.

You could hire a professional to burn it.

I wouldn’t make any judgement on if it could be burned or not until someone that does it for a living comes and looks at it. There is nothing you could spend money or time on that would be of greater benefit at a cheaper cost. In my opinion of course.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I agree on the benefits of fire. No doubt at all. It's our location surrounded by MILES of wooded mountains. We're on a mountain top that's always windy - embers fly a long way. We had a forest fire across our mountain about 12 years ago. Despite a number of fire companies fighting it - the wind carried embers and sparks that set several mountains on fire far beyond the original fire source. There were hundreds of new fires set from those wind-carried embers. No thanks!!

I don't know how professional "burners" are insured - but the value of the hardwoods in our LOCAL mountains is in the tens of millions. A pro "burner" better have HUGE insurance coverage.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

A rye question - in a mixed plot of clover and rye (rye as a nurse crop) - how much rye do you use for 1 acre?? Don't want to have too much or too little!!

 

[MadMadHoosier]

I agree on the benefits of fire. No doubt at all. It's our location surrounded by MILES of wooded mountains. We're on a mountain top that's always windy - embers fly a long way. We had a forest fire across our mountain about 12 years ago. Despite a number of fire companies fighting it - the wind carried embers and sparks that set several mountains on fire far beyond the original fire source. There were hundreds of new fires set from those wind-carried embers. No thanks!!

I don't know how professional "burners" are insured - but the value of the hardwoods in our LOCAL mountains is in the tens of millions. A pro "burner" better have HUGE insurance coverage.

Back in the 90's I had a business with 200 acres of Mississippi River bluff on the Illinois side. Some environmentalist decided I had a rare native grass that would flourish if I allowed them to burn it. I was more than happy to oblige, IF, and ONLY IF, they provided an insurance policy that would satisfy my business insurance agent. They kept telling me the ones doing the burn would be certified, knew what they were doing, and that should be good enough. I said if they were that good, it should be easy to get insurance. Never heard from them again.

 

[yoderjac]

We don't do fire there. The way the winds swirl in our mountains and hollows - it'd be a disaster. Not risking neighboring properties.
We have a planned exclusion-fence area to keep deer out so new forb growth and tree seedlings get a chance to establish. Even with that - once the fence comes down after 6 to 8 years or so - we still need plot nutrition.

Ahh... Without fire to keep some stuff in early success, things become much more difficult. One problem may be scale. One of our biggest challenges is arranging timber sales so they are large enough in total for it to be worth it to a logger. Then don't seem to mind patchwork, but they don't want to transport heavy equipment in for a small cut. Have you considered planted pines? They may or may not be right for your situation. Hardwoods are tough to cycle because of the slow growth. Pines can be short cycled for pulp. We are trying this in some sections. We will have some areas clear-cut to keep in early succession with fire, but we are experimenting with another approach where we are clear cutting small sections and having them replanted in pines. We are doing this in the context of a larger timber sale with an initial thinning and a secondary thinning of other sections.

Clearly fire is the a good fit for all places. I'm also trying something else on a small scale. I don't know if it could be modified for a larger scale effectively or not. In my case I'm calling them wildlife openings. I start them in clover and then add fruit trees. Because of the fruit trees, I can't use fire. Instead, I just let them go wild. When things get almost too large for my bushog, I bushhog them back.

I wonder if one could skip the fruit trees and simply keep a clear cut (after stump removal) in early succession with a bushhog.

One more thought is chemical burns. We use Arsenal in places where prescribed fire is not appropriate.

I'm also beginning to wonder if your deer populations are to high for the BCC. When I hear exclusion fences are needed it let a clear-cut take off, I begin to worry about deer numbers being too high for the habitat.

We certainly had that problem when we first started. We ended up killing a lot of does while a the same time doing the habitat management to get thing back in balance.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

We're replanting Norway spruce in stages in our logged areas. Pines open up too soon at the bottoms for our liking. Deer browse on deciduous hardwoods here, and brushy shrubs. Pines do us no good. We have too many pines now - naturally. Some guys on here have deer browsing on their pines ........ it doesn't happen in our mountains. Spruce tips - yes - in bad winters when other food is not available.

I have nothing against the idea of fire - but for the reasons I stated in my post #32 - it's a no-go for us.

I wonder if one could skip the fruit trees and simply keep a clear cut (after stump removal) in early succession with a bushhog.

No one is going to brush hog our rocky, steep mountain sides!!! That's where the woods are. Our flattest ground is where our food plots are.

 

[yoderjac]

We're replanting Norway spruce in stages in our logged areas. Pines open up too soon at the bottoms for our liking. Deer browse on deciduous hardwoods here, and brushy shrubs. Pines do us no good. We have too many pines now - naturally. Some guys on here have deer browsing on their pines ........ it doesn't happen in our mountains. Spruce tips - yes - in bad winters when other food is not available.

I have nothing against the idea of fire - but for the reasons I stated in my post #32 - it's a no-go for us.

No one is going to brush hog our rocky, steep mountain sides!!! That's where the woods are. Our flattest ground is where our food plots are.

My point was not that the pines benefit deer. My point was that short cycling pine management techniques benefit deer. You are clear-cutting for pulp and replanting about the time they canopy and begin to shade out deer food. Spruce will provide more thermal cover than planted pines which may be of benefit up north.

Having said that, you know your situation best. I'm just throwing out ideas that have been successful for us. I understand your conditions are different.

The underlying principles are the same for benefiting the deer herd.
- Keep deer numbers in balance with the BCC with doe harvest
- Actively manage timber to create higher volumes of native quality deer food (Income generator)
- Use food plots to supplement during temporary stress periods (cost)

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I'm always open to ideas, Jack. If you saw our terrain, you'd see we're limited in what we can do. The only "flatish" ground is our food plot fields. The rest is steep enough that you need to grab hold of small trees to stay on your feet!! We have pro foresters giving us advice and they developed a long-term forest plan that is both for timber value AND wildlife value. One of the goals is to increase regeneration on the forest floor - which we had NONE of. The spruce are planted in smallish clusters (for bedding) and also in lines to promote deer "walkways" to our plots. The foresters will spray Triclopyr to kill ferns and undesirable / non-native invasives like "tree of heaven." The spraying in necessary to kill ferns, primarily, because their underground root systems smother any seedlings that want to emerge. Because of the steep, rocky terrain, spraying is the only answer. No equipment will do what the chemicals will do. Once the spraying is done, the foresters will put up a deer exclusion fence to keep deer out of the re-gen area. That's its own project.

The food plots are needed because most of the surrounding (other camps') acreage is mature hardwoods - no browse at ground level. Even the gas pipelines that were planted with a mix of red clover and assorted grasses has reverted to just the grasses that prevent erosion on the steep slopes. Deer have no interest in those grasses - but they beat a path to our plots. That's why I started this thread to get experienced advice on plot basics. Some of you guys on here know WHAT to plant - WHEN to plant it - what NEW crops can be overseeded into established crops - WHEN to mow or roll, etc. You have the equipment and knowledge to do it in your sleep!! The bottom line is ......... when we get a mixed plot established - we want to be able to keep it going for several years without plowing & starting over again. Knowing what crops will mix well with the established plot, seed rates for the overseeding, & the necessary steps to accomplish our several-year plot goal is where we fall a bit short. We don't want to rotate fields like you AG guys - we aren't cash-cropping. We'd like to rotate every 3 or 4 years - not every spring & fall. Stretch a dollar / limited help ......... that sort of thing.

I read ALL input here. ALL ideas are welcome.

 

[yoderjac]

You're fortunate you found a forester that is interested in wildlife objectives. We interviewed a handful before we found one that wasn't totally focused on maximizing profit and thus their commission at sale. USDA and our DWR wildlife biologists have been a great help and they are free.

I don't want to hear about Tree of Heaven! I've had my fill of it. I spent countless hours on my mini-excavator and with a chainsaw at our retirement property cutting them down an digging out the stumps!

You clearly have an unusual situation. It sounds like the deer densities are too high for the BCC. When you see browse lines and plant species being removed from the ecosystem, it is a tall order to get it back. There is only so much food plots can do. Sounds like a tough situation.


Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

When you see browse lines and plant species being removed from the ecosystem, it is a tall order to get it back. There is only so much food plots can do. Sounds like a tough situation.

That's the reason it's an absolute necessity for the exclusion fences. Some areas near our camp that have had timber sales - then exclusion fences - have dense brush and high stem counts inside those fences. Once they take the fences down, the deer will only have access to SOME of the browse - other trees will have grown past their reach - which is the foresters' (and the Game Commision's) plan. The fenced areas I'm referring to are anywhere from 80 acres to over 500 acres.