Norway Spruce Planting after logging

[BJE80]

If you are saying it is going to be hard to get equipment in there to mow and maintain you are right. You have to figure all trimming and spraying will be done by hand.

 

[scott44]

Here's a video on treating a stump like Stu said.

 

[wiscwhip]

Tordon will not be your friend if you are intending on planting those conifers right onto the hump that the stump is currently sitting on. You would risk serious injury or death to those seedling conifers from the residual effect coming from the roots of the stump. Also, you will only get optimum results if you treat each stump within 10-15 minutes max from the time it was cut. Garlon might not be as bad, but it still has residual effects in the soil. If you were VERY, VERY careful with the applications, you might be ok, or you might end up with a bunch of brown seedling conifers. Gly/diesel fuel applied immediately after cutting to the cambium area might be the safest bet. You might be able to come back later and apply, but you would likely have to drill fresh holes around the cambium area and then apply the mix, and there is no guarantees on a good kill with that either.

 

[BJE80]

Treating right after cutting is not going to possible. Hmmmmmmmm

 

[tooln]

BJE80 the lay of your land looks real similar to mine. In the winter of 2012/2013 I clear cut 2.5 acres. The spring of 2013 I planted 3 year old bare root Norways. I did absolutely nothing before I planted. I had some trees (maple & bass wood) that were 30"+ on the stump. I just planted around the stumps. On the average the seedlings were about 12" when planted. Some were put in low spots and if a high spot was there that's where it went. My survival rate is well over 95%. Currently the average height is about knee high. Yes they are competing with weeds and anything else that is coming up but I look at it this way. This offers them some shade and I contribute the survival rate partially to this. I also used root gel and would never plant any tree without it. Because of the competition I see the first 2-3 years being slow growth. But after that I can see these things really taking off. I do not enter the area this time of the year but maybe I'll sneak in a take a pic or 2 for you Friday when I go the property.

Disclaimer do not claim to know what I'm doing but my results are ok with me. So take this information for what it's worth.

 

[wiscwhip]

Brad, were you thinking bareroot seedlings or plugs in this area? How many actual trees were you looking at planting on 1.5 acres? The reason I ask is that you may be able to get a bit larger plug or seedling stock that would put them above some of the lower growth that will come back after logging. I realize you want to keep costs down of course, but maybe something like a #6 or S77 sized plug vs the old standby 4A plug would give you the height advantage you would need to compete with new growth?

 

[BJE80]

Brad, were you thinking bareroot seedlings or plugs in this area? How many actual trees were you looking at planting on 1.5 acres? The reason I ask is that you may be able to get a bit larger plug or seedling stock that would put them above some of the lower growth that will come back after logging. I realize you want to keep costs down of course, but maybe something like a #6 or S77 sized plug vs the old standby 4A plug would give you the height advantage you would need to compete with new growth?

I was thinking plugs and I figure about 450 trees. at 12'x12' on center planting spacing. Your not talking English to this guy. WTF does that all mean.

 

[scott44]

I was thinking plugs and I figure about 450 trees. at 12'x12' on center planting spacing. Your not talking English to this guy. WTF does that all mean.

Whips talking about the size of the plug 4A being the smallest and cheapest. Here's the NCR website and they have a pic on the front page of the sizes.

http://www.ncrtrees.com/

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I was thinking along the same line as Stu in post #53. In the early years after cutting red maple and planting evergreens in the same area, the maple stump sprouts will be easy browsing for the deer and take the attention/pressure off the evergreens getting nipped. This will give them time to get root systems established. Then as the maple get too big ( if they DO ) and you need more sunlight, go in and cut down and / or treat with gly/diesel, or Garlon. Garlon was recommended to me for killing off " Tree-of-Heaven " in a section of our woods that is primarily oak, maple, and hickory. So I would conclude that Garlon isn't going to kill off nearby trees. ( A forester recommended using Garlon. ) FWIW. :)

 

[sandbur]

I would just plant conifer plugs and plan on releasing them in two years if the deer don't release them by then.
I woudl also get a good ring of conifers around the edge of that wetland for a travel lane in wet years if it works. for your stand locations.

 

[wiscwhip]

Since we were talking about Garlon and given your usually wet, saturated soil conditions, I thought this might be of relevance:

Application Under Unusual Conditions:
Several natural area managers have found that Garlon 4® and 3A® are effective when applied in
mid-winter as a cut-stump treatment against buckthorns (Rhamnus cathartica and R. frangula).

It is often easier to get to these plants when boggy soils around them are frozen. Randy Heidorn,
Deputy Director for Stewardship of the Illinois Nature Preserve Commission (INPC),
recommends three protocols to increase the safety of triclopyr ester application in winter:
(1) use a mineral oil based carrier;
(2) make sure that at the time of application, no water is at or above the ground surface,
and no snow or ice is present that might serve as a route to spread the herbicide following
a thaw, and;
(3) initiate a monitoring program to assess ambient water concentrations of triclopyr ester
in communities that seasonally have water at or above the ground surface with little or no
discharge (i.e. bogs).

Some other info that may be helpful:

Triclopyr can damage plants due to
root uptake but does not work effectively that way (Newton et al., 1990). Triclopyr acts as a
synthetic auxin, giving a plant an auxin overdose 1000 times natural levels, which disrupts the
hormonal balance and interferes with growth. The effects occur at the cellular level first, then
exterior effects are seen. Ethylene and protein production in the plant increases first then after
about one week, epinasty, abnormal leaf formation and stem swelling occur. Sometimes plants
may resprout and then die (DowElanco meeting, 1996). Unlike the susceptibility of broadleaf
plants, triclopyr has low phytotoxicity to grasses. Triclopyr, however, can cause injury to conifers

at high application rates (Ghassemi et al., 1981). According to the label for Garlon®4, when

applications are made as suggested for California, sprays may cause discolored needles and

temporary growth suppression of some conifers. Since triclopyr is rapidly degraded by soil

microorganisms, there is not enough residue left to injure plants the next growing season

(Ghassemi et al., 1981).

I do think it is a far better choice than Tordon, at least Garlon only has an average soil half-life of around 30 days, Tordon stays in the soil much longer.

 

[wiscwhip]

I would just plant conifer plugs and plan on releasing them in two years if the deer don't release them by then.
I woudl also get a good ring of conifers around the edge of that wetland for a travel lane in wet years if it works. for your stand locations.

His whole 80 is basically a wetland in the spring.

 

[BJE80]

I would just plant conifer plugs and plan on releasing them in two years if the deer don't release them by then.
I woudl also get a good ring of conifers around the edge of that wetland for a travel lane in wet years if it works. for your stand locations.

His whole 80 is basically a wetland in the spring.

The whole town is a wetland in the spring. LOL. For miles. I am at the highest point of the road and don't need a culvert.

 

[BJE80]

I know this will drive Dipper nuts but back to having it dozed, then I would not have to worry about spraying or killing or trimming shoots. I would be just dealing with grass and weeds. Right? I think I would be able to plant around any standing water that way as well.

I'd probably be looking at $1000-1500 bucks then much mess work in the future and the trees would probably grow faster. Am I right about that or not?

 

[tooln]

Here's a pic of the area I clear cut in 2013 and one of the Norway spruce. I didn't go in very far as there are trails and beds all over. It's thick and nasty about 4' tall with a little bit of everything coming up. The Norway I found was 2' tall. Some are even taller.

 

[BJE80]

Thanks toolin. So it's a mess and yeah the seedlings are getting shade. Is you plan just to let everything go and let it run its course and eventually the seedlings will take over.

 

[SD51555]

I've been watching that same situation on our place with our spruces as well. On ours, the spruces don't really get shaded out until about July 1st. They get a solid couple months to move ahead before they get covered up, and they seem to weather that fine until the sun pokes through again in the spring.

 

[tooln]

Thanks toolin. So it's a mess and yeah the seedlings are getting shade. Is you plan just to let everything go and let it run its course and eventually the seedlings will take over.

My original plan was to do nothing and let nature taking it's course. Last summer I never set foot in there. This spring I toured it a bit & yesterday was the first back there since spring. After seeing what is coming up I may go out in spring and kill off some of the maples coming up. I may also spray around the Norway to give them just a little breathing room. I'm very happy with the current results and am sure If I just leave it along in a year or 2 the spruce will over take anything else growing. I figured the first 3 years the growth would be slow and then hoping they would really take off after that.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Tooln - From my experience with spruce, I'd agree that the first 3 yrs. are slow on growth, but good on root system establishment. After that, growth rate ratchets up. Common to see 1 ft. / yr.

 

[tooln]

Tooln - From my experience with spruce, I'd agree that the first 3 yrs. are slow on growth, but good on root system establishment. After that, growth rate ratchets up. Common to see 1 ft. / yr.

That's what I'm counting on.