New Plot question

[EarthySpirit]

First, I would not plant perennial clover plots in the spring. I'm in zone 7a and here, summer weeds competition with clover is an issue. If you want fields in perennial clover, the best practice is to plant them in the fall with a Winter Rye nurse crop. Winter Rye will be attractant in the fall and clover will germinate but not produce much. Perennial clover expends quite a bit of energy establishing a root system. If planted in the spring, weeds are on equal footing with clover. They establish faster than clover and will fair better during the summer. You will spend a lot more energy dealing with weeds (and I am weed tolerant) with spring planted clover. When planted in the fall, it gets a big head start on the weeds the next spring. The Winter Rye both takes up room to crowd out weeds and has a chemical effect on them. When the WR hits about a foot in the spring, you mow it back to 6" to 8" depending on the type of clover. This releases the clover but does not kill the WR. It continues to suppress weeds until the clover has established a root system.

If you want to plant clover in the spring with Oats and then brassica in the fall, I'd suggest an annual clover like Crimson. It is much faster to establish because it is an annual and doesn't invest in a root system as much as a perennial does up front. You should be able to spray it with gly and broadcast broadcast brassica into it.

Perennial clover is the anchor of a good food plot program. It will cover more months of deer of deer food per dollar than just about anything else. There is also value in diversity. Three of 4 plots in clover is not over kill. It all depends on your situation, time, and other resources.

Thanks,

jack

Ok, lots of different opinions. I may just have to try out some things and see how they work. Jack, I plan to put gly on the spring before planting clover. You still would not put in clover in the spring even if I kill everything prior to? I just got through watching two videos saying clover in spring is a great idea in the midwest. So many different opinions. I may just have to do trial and error and see what works best for this part of the country? thanks again!!

 

[yoderjac]

That is correct. Annual clover planted in the spring is a fine short-term crop. Perennial clover is a different story. Keep in mind that most videos you watch are selling something. Can perennial clover be planted in the spring and be successful? Sure! Killing stuff with gly and planting perennial clover means clover and weeds are at the starting line. Weeds are fast and perennial clover is slow. Certainly you can spray the clover with clethodim or poast but that is more time and money. When you plant clover in the fall, conditions favor it over summer weeds. When spring rolls around it has a significant head start.

I'm very weed tolerant. Many broadleaf weeds better deer food than the crops we plant. Some weeds are problematic. I prefer to use best practices when establishing perennial clover. I want to start with a clean field. I use Durana clover in our area. It is slower than most to establish but is much more persistent and drought tolerant. I plant in the fall only with Winter Rye as a nurse crop. One key is timely mowing the first spring while it is establishing. Each time the WR hits about a foot, I mow it back to 6" with Durana. The WR dies naturally in the middle of summer and the Durana fills in.

After that, I largely ignore clover fields and allow them to get weedy. I don't try to keep them clean. Each year more weeds will encroach. I generally mow them once a year right before our archery season begins in early October. Summer weeds actually help shade the clover and protect it from heat. Deer don't at all mind eating clover through weeds. They are browsers by nature, not grazers. Often one looking at a field that is 5 or 6 years old during the summer would swear there was no clover in the field. After the fall mowing, the fall rains and cool nights favor clover and by the second week of October they are lush once again.

When things get real bad after 7 years or so, I'll wait until I have a good fall rain on the horizon and spray the field with 1 qt/ac of glyphosate. That is enough to kill most weeds and top-kill the clover but not kill the clover's root system. I then drill radish and/or WR into the clover. They pop up first and then the clover bounces back from the root system and fills in. I can usually get 3 or 4 more years out of the clover field but eventually I need to rotate them into an N seeking crop for a season or two before going back to clover.

Here is what a clover field looks like after suppressing with gly, drilling, and the clover bounces back:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[FarmerDan]

I'm thinking of ladino or one of the other white flower clovers....
You can spring plant clover and succeeded. It just takes a lot more skill, management, and luck. Having said that, fall is the best time to plant clover. Let me say that another way. The odds of a successful spring planting are in the range of zero to 50% (I'm making up numbers). The odds of a successful fall planting are 85% - 100%. Again, I'm talking about long-lived varieties of perennial clovers.

Why? Clover is a cool season crop. It doesn't do well in heat and humidity. It can and will do dormant in the summer. A fall planting gets two cool seasons to establish. Those are two season with much less weed competition, too. Spring planting clover is akin to throwing a baby into a cage of lions. It might survive, but it's going to take a lot of intervention.

Spring planted clover has a short root system. That makes it hard to compete for water and nutrients in the midst of a sea of summer annual weeds. And if the ground dries, there isn't much ability to reach, deeper, wetter soil. By the way, spring gly before a spring planting surely will kill all the weeds growing then, but there are still hundreds of thousands of weed seed in the soil. If your clover germinates so, too, will all that weed seed.

To each their own, but I don't think you can have too much clover. Its a big bang for a small investment. But, it depends on you goals and how food plotting fits into them.
Me, I look around at the available feed sources in the area (beyond my property lines) to see when feed might be in short supply. I do love soybeans for a summer annual and fall food source. Corn I can't do because it matures too early. Brassicas I've never had any luck with.










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[Bowsnbucks]

I agree with the idea of planting clover in the fall. We just happened to plant ours in the spring with chicory and oats as the nurse crop. Our situation was - we wanted to get something growing for the deer to eat all summer long. We just wanted to get feed to them. NOW - we plant our clover in the fall if starting a new plot. We planted a mix of alfalfa and red clover in the fall of 2016 - right around Labor Day weekend. It got established somewhat that fall, and this spring - it kicked into high gear and it got really lush. Our deer hammered it all summer long and into this fall.

I believe the reason it got established so well was the fall planting and lack of weed competition. Bottom line .......... if I were starting a new clover plot - I'd seed it in the fall.

 

[EarthySpirit]

I agree with the idea of planting clover in the fall. We just happened to plant ours in the spring with chicory and oats as the nurse crop. Our situation was - we wanted to get something growing for the deer to eat all summer long. We just wanted to get feed to them. NOW - we plant our clover in the fall if starting a new plot. We planted a mix of alfalfa and red clover in the fall of 2016 - right around Labor Day weekend. It got established somewhat that fall, and this spring - it kicked into high gear and it got really lush. Our deer hammered it all summer long and into this fall.

I believe the reason it got established so well was the fall planting and lack of weed competition. Bottom line .......... if I were starting a new clover plot - I'd seed it in the fall.

That makes a lot of sense. in that case, can you think of anything I could plant in spring just to have something for them to eat, and possibly for turkeys too? Buckwheat?

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Buckwheat, oats, wheat, winter rye are all easy things you can plant in the spring that would feed turkeys, and deer.


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[EarthySpirit]

Buckwheat, oats, wheat, winter rye are all easy things you can plant in the spring that would feed turkeys, and deer.


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Great. I may end up planting something different in each plot in spring like buckweat, oats, or like Jack said, an anual clover, then in fall start a couple of the plots in a perennial clover and in others brassicas and cereal grain blend. Thanks for the all the ideas guys.

 

[yoderjac]

If you are starting out, which it seems like you are, and starting in the spring, plant buckwheat. There are several reasons for this:

1) Deer use buckwheat but don't abuse it unless there numbers are very high or they don't have much else. If buckwheat is getting wiped out, it tells you that that you have an issue to deal with in terms of deer density and food.

2) Buckwheat has a wide planting window. It can germinate at soil temperatures as low as 45 degrees but the optimal soil temperature is 80 degrees for planting buckwheat. It is a 60 to 90 day crop (in terms of food value for deer) and in some places you can double crop it. I find that I'm on the ratty edge for that. The soil is a bit cold when I need to plant my first crop to double crop and that first crop is lethargic compared to the second crop. I found I get the best results single cropping it planting in the last half of June.

3) Buckwheat is very tolerant of soil infertility and pH. It takes time for soil amendments to work and buckwheat will grow regardless of poor soil conditions.

4) Buckwheat is a soil builder. It is sometimes called green manure. It will also scavenge nutrients and make them available to the next crop.

5) Turkey love buckwheat. They bug in it and when it goes to seed they gobble the seed up.

6) Buckwheat suppresses weeds by smothering. It is so fast to germinate and grow, it crowds out weed competition. If you spray gly before planting gly and then after when you throw and mow a clover/WR crop into it, you can really get a handle on weed control out of the box. It is great preparation for your next crop.

7) It is really hard to screw up buckwheat. You can make a lot of mistakes and still get a great crop. It build confidence in new food plotters.

8) it is a good pollinator attractor. Honey bees and other pollinators like it.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[chucker66]

Now I have to try to decide if I want to do Crimson Clover and Oats or Buckwheat on the new plots I want to establish. Decisions, decisions. I don't think I can go wrong with either :) Thanks Jack for the information and reasons. The only thing I am concerned about is the soil temp here in NW Wis and getting good growth before I want to terminate for a fall crop (LC Mix)? Thoughts on that from other guys in NW Wis?

Chuck

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I have only planted buckwheat once, and I waited until the end of June to plant it, and it took a while to take off, but it did pretty decent. But if you are planning on planting radish and turnips, you will want to plant them no later then the middle of July, so you won’t get much life from the buckwheat before having to plant the radish and turnips. If you are planning on turning it into a clover plot, plant he buckwheat in late June, then plant your clover with a cover crop of winter rye. On Labor Day. If you are planning on radish and turnips, I would plant wheat, or winter rye in the spring, like right after the ground thaws, Late April to mid May.


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[chucker66]

I have only planted buckwheat once, and I waited until the end of June to plant it, and it took a while to take off, but it did pretty decent. But if you are planning on planting radish and turnips, you will want to plant them no later then the middle of July, so you won’t get much life from the buckwheat before having to plant the radish and turnips. If you are planning on turning it into a clover plot, plant he buckwheat in late June, then plant your clover with a cover crop of winter rye. On Labor Day. If you are planning on radish and turnips, I would plant wheat, or winter rye in the spring, like right after the ground thaws, Late April to mid May.


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Thanks 4. I'm in Washburn too near Earl. That was my concern with the Buckwheat and why I was looking more at oats and crimson clover. I might just leave it until July and do it all in the LC mix too.

Thanks

Chuck

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks 4. I'm in Washburn too near Earl. That was my concern with the Buckwheat and why I was looking more at oats and crimson clover. I might just leave it until July and do it all in the LC mix too.

Thanks

Chuck

Buckwheat is very frost sensitive. Any frost after germination will kill it. Just another consideration for folks in less hospitable areas. My buckwheat recommendation was aimed at Patrick in KY. Others further north know better than I what works up there.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[chucker66]

Buckwheat is very frost sensitive. Any frost after germination will kill it. Just another consideration for folks in less hospitable areas. My buckwheat recommendation was aimed at Patrick in KY. Others further north know better than I what works up there.

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks Jack I appreciate it. And hey we are very hospitable up here in the north land. Come see us sometime

Chuck

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[yoderjac]

Thanks Jack I appreciate it. And hey we are very hospitable up here in the north land. Come see us sometime

Chuck

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My wife is from South Dakota so I get at least that far north from time to time. :)

 

[EarthySpirit]

If you are starting out, which it seems like you are, and starting in the spring, plant buckwheat. There are several reasons for this:

1) Deer use buckwheat but don't abuse it unless there numbers are very high or they don't have much else. If buckwheat is getting wiped out, it tells you that that you have an issue to deal with in terms of deer density and food.

2) Buckwheat has a wide planting window. It can germinate at soil temperatures as low as 45 degrees but the optimal soil temperature is 80 degrees for planting buckwheat. It is a 60 to 90 day crop (in terms of food value for deer) and in some places you can double crop it. I find that I'm on the ratty edge for that. The soil is a bit cold when I need to plant my first crop to double crop and that first crop is lethargic compared to the second crop. I found I get the best results single cropping it planting in the last half of June.

3) Buckwheat is very tolerant of soil infertility and pH. It takes time for soil amendments to work and buckwheat will grow regardless of poor soil conditions.

4) Buckwheat is a soil builder. It is sometimes called green manure. It will also scavenge nutrients and make them available to the next crop.

5) Turkey love buckwheat. They bug in it and when it goes to seed they gobble the seed up.

6) Buckwheat suppresses weeds by smothering. It is so fast to germinate and grow, it crowds out weed competition. If you spray gly before planting gly and then after when you throw and mow a clover/WR crop into it, you can really get a handle on weed control out of the box. It is great preparation for your next crop.

7) It is really hard to screw up buckwheat. You can make a lot of mistakes and still get a great crop. It build confidence in new food plotters.

8) it is a good pollinator attractor. Honey bees and other pollinators like it.

Best of luck,

Jack

Wow, this is so helpful. I can't believe I have this resource. I feel guilty, like I should be paying someone. Big thanks to everyone chipping in with ideas. Thanks for this Jack. I'm going to definitely try buckwheat. Another question for you while I'm on the topic. Right now it looks like I'll have 4 plots ,each about 1/2 acre in size. In the fall I plan to do a variety, diferent stuff in each plot. But in the spring, Should I put all of them in buckwheat, or mix that up too? thanks again!

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I like variety.


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[yoderjac]

Wow, this is so helpful. I can't believe I have this resource. I feel guilty, like I should be paying someone. Big thanks to everyone chipping in with ideas. Thanks for this Jack. I'm going to definitely try buckwheat. Another question for you while I'm on the topic. Right now it looks like I'll have 4 plots ,each about 1/2 acre in size. In the fall I plan to do a variety, diferent stuff in each plot. But in the spring, Should I put all of them in buckwheat, or mix that up too? thanks again!

I would guess you don't have enough acreage to have a measureable impact on the health of the local herd. Given that, the primary purpose of the fall plots is attraction for hunting and the summer plot's primary purpose is to help prepare for the fall plant. Thus, I would plant buckwheat in all if you plan to plant them in the fall.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[EarthySpirit]

I would guess you don't have enough acreage to have a measureable impact on the health of the local herd. Given that, the primary purpose of the fall plots is attraction for hunting and the summer plot's primary purpose is to help prepare for the fall plant. Thus, I would plant buckwheat in all if you plan to plant them in the fall.

Thanks,

Jack

Ok, thats what I was thinking too, like you said, I only have 52 acres, and only about 2-3 acres of plots max, so my summer food is not exactly going to rock their world, but what I plant in the fall will really be the key, and planting buckwheat in the spring will help prepare the soil well for that, if I understand this right. Thanks.

 

[yoderjac]

Ok, thats what I was thinking too, like you said, I only have 52 acres, and only about 2-3 acres of plots max, so my summer food is not exactly going to rock their world, but what I plant in the fall will really be the key, and planting buckwheat in the spring will help prepare the soil well for that, if I understand this right. Thanks.

You got it right. Buckwheat will help you get a handle on weeds. It will give deer something. You can gauge your deer density to quality food availability by how hard they use the buckwheat. It will grow when the soil may not be amended enough for some other crops. It will help improve you soil for the fall plant. Check out Crimson and Camo's throw and mow threads for techniques for your fall clover/WR plant. They work well for most brassica as well.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

We've had really good luck with buckwheat at our camp. Deer - especially bucks - seem to really chow down on it. The weed suppression & soil amending traits are a bonus. Due to soil temps., we usually plant it around mid-May.