More comprehensive List for blueKYstream and others interested

[Bowsnbucks]

Native, post #24 - You would be welcome anytime at my camp. The camp location is a bit unique in that we don't have any members of the juniper family around for miles, so CAR isn't a problem with us there. Thus the clean Goldrush trees, and other varieties as well. With no ag or commercial orchards around for miles either, I haven't seen any FB yet - thank God !! We are surrounded by 99% hardwood forest for miles. If any FB were to show up, I'd be hacking and burning the affected trees.

I get why you don't want to waste time on Goldrush there. Without hand-holding, it's just more work for you than it's worth. It seems to do well for us at camp, but 15 miles down the road, it may be a mess to grow. I'm no expert for sure, but I try to ask the folks who are to get the best info I can. I picked our trees based on recommendations from Penn State, Cornell, Rutgers, Mich. State, U. Mass., Purdue, several nurseries, as well as printed & online publications. I lurked on several forums for 2 or 3 years just reading and absorbing info. It made more sense to me to research and learn first - then proceed a few trees at a time. Our oldest newer trees are only 6th leaf this spring, and we may learn that some aren't good for our location/soil. If some don't pan out, we'll adjust to ones that do well.

Our rootstocks at camp are MM-111, B-118, Antonovka, and this spring we'll try 2 trees on P-18. So far, so good with the first 3 rootstock varieties. I must say that Antonovka has grown the biggest trees to date when compared to the other rootstocks planted at the same time. They'll take longer to bear, but I knew that going in - and we need bigger, heavy-wood trees because of bears. The MM-111 and B-118 trees have begun to bear some fruit, and they'll fill the gap until the Antonovka trees start to bear.

I won't get so far into the apple tree program that I'll be conducting experiments. I and other camp members just want to attract deer and other critters, and we'll eat a few too. But as others have posted info on here and other forums, I try to share what I've learned and experienced so others can derive something from my posts - for whatever help it may be. I've gained from what this forum has offered to the public, so I just try to pay a bit back FWIW. I'll continue to update what I see at camp & post it here.

 

[yoderjac]

Native & Aerospace,

As I read through the beginning of thread http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...pple-tree-knowledge-thread.10487/#post-190640, I think I took things very differently than Aerospace does. I saw it as someone with a theory that bucks conventional thinking committed to collecting data (from other research and his own experience), and weighing that evidence against his theory. Native, in my opinion does a very good job of describing his basis. He then goes on to provide some advice for folks with similar objectives and are in his region. Personally, that is exactly what I like to see.

Folks can read his hypothesis, look at his references, and read his personal experience and then decide if they buy into it. If so, that can take his advice, if not, they can ignore it. It also offers the opportunity for other folks with significant experience (or limited experience like me) to challenge it. For example, I challenged it not by suggesting his hypothesis was incorrect, but by presenting another hypothesis that, if true, could account for some if not all of his results. I wasn't suggesting I had a better answer with better evidence, simply that there are alternatives to consider.

Having said that, I think there is a large body of research that has been focused on apples for commercial production. That makes sense as potential profit improvements generally drive the justification for funding research. I would say we are in the infancy of Apples for wildlife research by comparison.

I think there is plenty of room here for you guys to challenge each other's views without letting things degenerate. You both have been great contributors. They say iron sharpens iron, but it can also dull it if not applied without sufficient control.

I love this thread, let's keep it a good one and apple restraint where applicable! I think this thread should be read in the context of the one I linked above.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Telemark, post #26 - I don't think Goldrush is "picky". Published info on it says it is susceptible to cedar-apple rust ( CAR ). Some areas that have members of the juniper family ( some mistakenly called cedars ) growing all around have a tough time with CAR on Goldrush trees. Warmer, more humid regions have more of a problem with fire blight (FB), so that can be a big problem. I have also read that Goldrush needs a longer growing season to ripen properly, so that's why it isn't recommended for colder northern regions.

In my camp's location - mountains of north-central Pa. - Goldrush does well for us. It's peak ripeness is about the first week of November for us. That may vary elsewhere.

 

[Native Hunter]

Native, post #24 - You would be welcome anytime at my camp. The camp location is a bit unique in that we don't have any members of the juniper family around for miles, so CAR isn't a problem with us there. Thus the clean Goldrush trees, and other varieties as well. With no ag or commercial orchards around for miles either, I haven't seen any FB yet - thank God !! We are surrounded by 99% hardwood forest for miles. If any FB were to show up, I'd be hacking and burning the affected trees.

I get why you don't want to waste time on Goldrush there. Without hand-holding, it's just more work for you than it's worth. It seems to do well for us at camp, but 15 miles down the road, it may be a mess to grow. I'm no expert for sure, but I try to ask the folks who are to get the best info I can. I picked our trees based on recommendations from Penn State, Cornell, Rutgers, Mich. State, U. Mass., Purdue, several nurseries, as well as printed & online publications. I lurked on several forums for 2 or 3 years just reading and absorbing info. It made more sense to me to research and learn first - then proceed a few trees at a time. Our oldest newer trees are only 6th leaf this spring, and we may learn that some aren't good for our location/soil. If some don't pan out, we'll adjust to ones that do well.

Our rootstocks at camp are MM-111, B-118, Antonovka, and this spring we'll try 2 trees on P-18. So far, so good with the first 3 rootstock varieties. I must say that Antonovka has grown the biggest trees to date when compared to the other rootstocks planted at the same time. They'll take longer to bear, but I knew that going in - and we need bigger, heavy-wood trees because of bears. The MM-111 and B-118 trees have begun to bear some fruit, and they'll fill the gap until the Antonovka trees start to bear.

I won't get so far into the apple tree program that I'll be conducting experiments. I and other camp members just want to attract deer and other critters, and we'll eat a few too. But as others have posted info on here and other forums, I try to share what I've learned and experienced so others can derive something from my posts - for whatever help it may be. I've gained from what this forum has offered to the public, so I just try to pay a bit back FWIW. I'll continue to update what I see at camp & post it here.

Bows, you have a very good situation for apple growing, and I'm glad for you - and I know that you will have great success in the long run. Not all of that success will be due to the lack of diseases in the area - much of it will be due to the approach you took when you started.

I didn't start out wanting to do any experimenting. In fact, I was hoping to just get what I needed and not do hardly anything else. Then, as time went on, I realized two things: (1) there was a need for research concerning things that I could find no answers for, and (2) I really enjoyed digging deeper, trying new things and the was hooked on the excitement that came from discovering something new in regard to fruit growing. Then, when I found out that other people were benefiting from it and had an appreciation for the work - that was icing on the cake.

Thanks for all of your contributions to the forum.

 

[Native Hunter]

Native & Aerospace,

As I read through the beginning of thread http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...pple-tree-knowledge-thread.10487/#post-190640, I think I took things very differently than Aerospace does. I saw it as someone with a theory that bucks conventional thinking committed to collecting data (from other research and his own experience), and weighing that evidence against his theory. Native, in my opinion does a very good job of describing his basis. He then goes on to provide some advice for folks with similar objectives and are in his region. Personally, that is exactly what I like to see.

Folks can read his hypothesis, look at his references, and read his personal experience and then decide if they buy into it. If so, that can take his advice, if not, they can ignore it. It also offers the opportunity for other folks with significant experience (or limited experience like me) to challenge it. For example, I challenged it not by suggesting his hypothesis was incorrect, but by presenting another hypothesis that, if true, could account for some if not all of his results. I wasn't suggesting I had a better answer with better evidence, simply that there are alternatives to consider.

Having said that, I think there is a large body of research that has been focused on apples for commercial production. That makes sense as potential profit improvements generally drive the justification for funding research. I would say we are in the infancy of Apples for wildlife research by comparison.

I think there is plenty of room here for you guys to challenge each other's views without letting things degenerate. You both have been great contributors. They say iron sharpens iron, but it can also dull it if not applied without sufficient control.

I love this thread, let's keep it a good one and apple restraint where applicable! I think this thread should be read in the context of the one I linked above.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack, no problems here. I actually enjoy being cussed out and called names over apple threads, because it tells me the message got through to the right place.

It's business as usual for me, except that you may see me even more energized and posting even more. As a Christian I don't hold grudges and I'm quick to forgive. However, I do stand up for what is right without wavering and will continue to do so.

Best wishes!

 

[TreeDaddy]

You can stand by your statements until Hell freezes over as far as I'm concerned, but wrong is wrong. And you are wrong about your #1 comment above. Their is such a thing as bad advice when someone asks for advice and are led wrong. That's like saying there is no such thing as good and evil.

Advice can be good or it can be bad - to say differently should be obviously wrong to everyone. A dope addict could give someone advice to try drugs. Would that not be bad advice?

Best Wishes.

Debating apples with Steve is tantamount to debating theology with God

"Fruitless" endeavors.........

bill

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Different regions have varying conditions, from climate to disease exposure to soil variations. A fruit tree variety in one location may thrive and the same variety in another may not stand a chance. Some of the apple trees I have at camp ( kind of isolated ) & do well there, may take a crap 10 miles away when exposed to junipers that host the CAR fungus. Colder states may not have the problems that warmer states face when trying to grow the same varieties of trees - and vice versa.

One problem we are all gonna face is the spotted lantern fly. I doubt there'll be any arguing / debating over this menace. Brace yourselves.

 

[TreeDaddy]

Do all cedars carry CAR or just the female,fruit bearing trees?

bill

 

[aerospacefarmer]

Telemark, post #26 - I don't think Goldrush is "picky". Published info on it says it is susceptible to cedar-apple rust ( CAR ). Some areas that have members of the juniper family ( some mistakenly called cedars ) growing all around have a tough time with CAR on Goldrush trees. Warmer, more humid regions have more of a problem with fire blight (FB), so that can be a big problem. I have also read that Goldrush needs a longer growing season to ripen properly, so that's why it isn't recommended for colder northern regions.

In my camp's location - mountains of north-central Pa. - Goldrush does well for us. It's peak ripeness is about the first week of November for us. That may vary elsewhere.

It’s a great apple if it ripens Bows and if it’s a short season and doesn’t ripen it doesn’t matter since the deer don’t mind apples that aren’t fully ripe. I have the same situation with my Cripps Pink. They don’t fully mature but taste great and hang a long time and the deer love them

 

[Native Hunter]

Do all cedars carry CAR or just the female,fruit bearing trees?

bill

All of them.

 

[Boone]

All of them.

We have about 6-8 mature cedars around our orchard. Would it be best to just cut them down?

 

[Native Hunter]

We have about 6-8 mature cedars around our orchard. Would it be best to just cut them down?

You could do that and it might help some, but CAR is airborne and can come from quite a distance. If you have that many cedars around your orchard, I'm sure there are probably more not that far away.

I don't cut cedars to try and reduce CAR myself. I actually plant cedars sometimes at places I want conifer cover. No conifer is tougher in this area and they will live in conditions where other conifers will die. My way of preventing CAR is to plant CAR resistant apple cultivars. Lots of apples will be affected very little or none at all. Also, some apples will show some CAR, but still make lots of fruit and be healthy. Betsey Deaton is an apple I grow that shows quite a bit of CAR, but it almost never fails to make a bumper crop of great apples. However, Goldrush gets affected so badly, I am yet to eat an apple off of a 5 or 6 year old tree. I have other apple trees that are close to cedars but the leaves stay very clean and never show any signs of it.

If the cedars around the orchard are not something you like, I would say go ahead and cut them. However, that likely won't keep you for getting CAR if you plant cultivars that are affected by it.

Good growing.....

 

[TreeDaddy]

All of them.

Well,hell

obvious management implications if true

bill

 

[buckvelvet]

I thought I might slip this over here as it seemed to spill over here. http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...pple-tree-knowledge-thread.10487/#post-190640

 

[blueKYstream]

I've been creeping on the thread. I've been so busy lately I haven't had the opportunity to think about which trees I'm going to get. I need to get my butt in gear. I think I'm going to try to go with about 15-20 late-dropping pears and/or apples. I just need to get a list together.

 

[blueKYstream]

Thanks Native Hunter for putting this list together! Things have been crazy busy but I finally got around to putting an order together. I didn't know how much help planting I'd have this time, so I decided to focus on pears. I ordered 16 pears from The Wildlife Group. I had a list in mind focusing on the late dropping pears before calling. I spoke with Allen there briefly.

He was saying the late dropping ones are a bit more susceptible to fireblight than the others generally speaking. Ms Laneene is probably one of the most susceptible (sold out). I thought Gilmore Christmas, Gallaway and Hunter's Choice (sold out) might be the worst offenders based on the descriptions on the website. I think he said Gallaway was a little better than Gate in that regard and Kiefer is resistant but not immune. He further explained after the first couple years, they can typically fend it off. Based on the descriptions on the website and what I read here, some of that information surprised me a bit.

I have 4 spots I plan to plant these to supplement some chinese chestnuts and american persimmons I planted (except 1 spot has none). I included some spray with my order. It would be tough to spray them multiple times the first couple years (afterwards I wouldn't) but we'll see. My preliminary order:
3 Gate
4 Becton
4 Gallaway
1 Gilmore Christmas
1 McKelvey
1 Arthur Ledbetter
1 Moonglow
1 Orient
16 Total

I think it should work. If you see any glaring holes or suggestions for improvements, I'm open to anything of course. Thanks again for your help!

 

[Native Hunter]

Thanks Native Hunter for putting this list together! Things have been crazy busy but I finally got around to putting an order together. I didn't know how much help planting I'd have this time, so I decided to focus on pears. I ordered 16 pears from The Wildlife Group. I had a list in mind focusing on the late dropping pears before calling. I spoke with Allen there briefly.

He was saying the late dropping ones are a bit more susceptible to fireblight than the others generally speaking. Ms Laneene is probably one of the most susceptible (sold out). I thought Gilmore Christmas, Gallaway and Hunter's Choice (sold out) might be the worst offenders based on the descriptions on the website. I think he said Gallaway was a little better than Gate in that regard and Kiefer is resistant but not immune. He further explained after the first couple years, they can typically fend it off. Based on the descriptions on the website and what I read here, some of that information surprised me a bit.

I have 4 spots I plan to plant these to supplement some chinese chestnuts and american persimmons I planted (except 1 spot has none). I included some spray with my order. It would be tough to spray them multiple times the first couple years (afterwards I wouldn't) but we'll see. My preliminary order:
3 Gate
4 Becton
4 Gallaway
1 Gilmore Christmas
1 McKelvey
1 Arthur Ledbetter
1 Moonglow
1 Orient
16 Total

I think it should work. If you see any glaring holes or suggestions for improvements, I'm open to anything of course. Thanks again for your help!

I think your order looks good. There are some there that I don't have experience with yet, but trying different things is how we all learn. I'm not sure about some of those things Allen told you about the disease resistance. I agree that what he told you seems to be different than what the web site advertising says. I do know that I would really be surprised to ever see any fireblight on a Moonglow. They seem to have strong resistance.

Keep us posted in the future on how your trees are doing. I wish you the best with everything.

 

[blueKYstream]

Yeah, what he said sort of threw me for a loop. I did say something to the effect of "That's interesting, I thought the website said Becton and Gate didn't get fireblight". He responded in saying that he's just speaking based on his experiences or what he's heard from others. I was a bit confused in that regard. I don't think he was trying to scare me, but I'm guessing he was trying to say that there is a chance they'll get fireblight (though I don't know how good of a chance). I was a little eased when he said that they are more susceptible the first year or two. I'm hoping after that they'll be fine on their own.

It'll be interesting to see how the drop times turn out as well as the disease resistance. I'll certainly do my best! Thanks again for all your help!

 

[Bowsnbucks]

" I was a little eased when he said that they are more susceptible the first year or two. " ^^^

I remember reading somewhere the same thing Allen told you about pears. I believe the article I read said as the tree gets bigger, if fire blight strikes, it may only affect a few shoots or a limb and not kill the whole tree. Bigger tree - better resistance, I guess. That article's directive pointed to pruning off the stricken shoots or limb and the somewhat older tree would likely survive the FB strike.

The Redspire pear I had in our back yard had some FB strikes over the years. They were much worse when it was a young tree. As it got bigger, the FB strikes only hit the new shoots at the limb tips. Tree shrugged it off. I had to drop it last year because it outgrew it's space and threatened the neighbor's shed if the wind took it. It was about 40 ft. tall when dropped and was 31 years in the ground. - - - - Good luck with your pears.

 

[Native Hunter]

" I was a little eased when he said that they are more susceptible the first year or two. " ^^^

I remember reading somewhere the same thing Allen told you about pears. I believe the article I read said as the tree gets bigger, if fire blight strikes, it may only affect a few shoots or a limb and not kill the whole tree. Bigger tree - better resistance, I guess. That article's directive pointed to pruning off the stricken shoots or limb and the somewhat older tree would likely survive the FB strike.

The Redspire pear I had in our back yard had some FB strikes over the years. They were much worse when it was a young tree. As it got bigger, the FB strikes only hit the new shoots at the limb tips. Tree shrugged it off. I had to drop it last year because it outgrew it's space and threatened the neighbor's shed if the wind took it. It was about 40 ft. tall when dropped and was 31 years in the ground. - - - - Good luck with your pears.

It makes a lot of sense, because as a tree gets bigger, a smaller percentage of the tree's limbs are getting hit. That must be what Allen was saying to him. I also eluded to that in the "Forbidden Apple Tree Knowledge" thread.