MN Audit Request Rough Draft. Suggestions welcomed.

Been thinking on a point I wrote above: Hunter ability. I gotta say, that today's hunters are much better armed with good equipment than in times gone by.....and they shoot at good ranges and know the limits of the guns and loads. Today's hunters are better at killing deer than in time gone by.....BOTH GUN AND BOW HUNTERS ARE BETTER EQUIPPED....and know how to use the equipment better.

Gone are the days when people shoot round after round at running deer. I seldom hear that kind of shooting these days. They use good guns and know the limitations of poor guns. Folks make ethical shots....and they practice shooting allot more. It used to be that "minute of pie plate" was good enough. Maybe folks have read enough, watched enough TV shows, or have "had it" with poor guns and ammo......but folks are better at killing deer than in the past. ......and this has to be factored into our hunting seasons.
 
"Gone are the days when people shoot round after round at running deer."

I hate to disagree, but I have to disagree. There are far more people that are the weekend warriors, than there are the people that frequent forums like this. And there are just flat out a lot of very poor hunters that are handed a license on Friday evening before the guns start blasting.
I think its part of the reason we have struggled to get changes to date. The majority of deer hunters just don't know whats really happening in the woods around them. They show up for a weekend with a gun, and pack it in until next year.
I am not saying every weekend warrior has no preparations, but I am quite afraid its still a lot more than we would wish.

I am here to testify with my hand held up and solemnly swear.... the people that hunt the property adjacent to us are about as big of a bunch of losers as you could ever ask for to be in the woods with firearms. And they are not alone by any means.
If anyone cares to hear my reasons why, I would be happy to point them out, but I don't want this reply to go on too long.

In general, I think I could agree that hunters are better equipped, but it doesn't fix stupid. :)
 
"Gone are the days when people shoot round after round at running deer."

I hate to disagree, but I have to disagree. There are far more people that are the weekend warriors, than there are the people that frequent forums like this. And there are just flat out a lot of very poor hunters that are handed a license on Friday evening before the guns start blasting.
I think its part of the reason we have struggled to get changes to date. The majority of deer hunters just don't know whats really happening in the woods around them. They show up for a weekend with a gun, and pack it in until next year.
I am not saying every weekend warrior has no preparations, but I am quite afraid its still a lot more than we would wish.

I am here to testify with my hand held up and solemnly swear.... the people that hunt the property adjacent to us are about as big of a bunch of losers as you could ever ask for to be in the woods with firearms. And they are not alone by any means.
If anyone cares to hear my reasons why, I would be happy to point them out, but I don't want this reply to go on too long.

In general, I think I could agree that hunters are better equipped, but it doesn't fix stupid. :)


Agreed, go to any gun range in mn on the friday before opener and you'll see its packed out until dark. That tells me right there that they only do this once a year and aren't prepared.
 
I just was wondering how many people feed the deer during the winter and then complain about too much browsing on their shrubs in the summer.
 
I have to agree withTom, that I feel people do less shooting at running deer as compared to the past. I see hunters waiting for one good shot at a chosen target. This applies to both of the areas that I hunt in zones 1 and 2.

The thing that does scare me is the driving of standing cornfields and my home being in somewhat open country.
 
How about this...

The residents of the state ofM innesota respectfully request an audit of the Mn. DNR's management of our whitetail deer population.

The present system has lead to areas with very high deer numbers and areas with very low deer numbers. Hunting is a multi million dollar industry in Minnesota. In areas of low deer numbers, gas stations, cafe's, lodging facilities, taxidermy shops ,and sporting goods stores are suffering financially. In areas of high deer numbers, farmers are suffering crop loss, residents, apple orchards, and golf courses are having severe damage to trees and shrubs, ,auto/deer collisions are increased, and native vegetation is not regenerating.

These things are the result of movement of deer into residential areas, conversion of woods and wetlands to agriculture, sale of industrial forest lands to private individuals, and changes in weather/climate. Our number of habitat acres has changed. In addition, hunters 'goals have changed, registration of deer is done by a new system, and there are higher numbers of inexpensive doe tags for youth.

All of these factors need to be considered in a new system of deer management in Minnesota.

We need to make better use of the tax payer's and hunter's dollars in our deer management program.

For these reasons, we request an audit of the deer management program in the state of Minnesota.
 
I feel we should skip the complaints about specific actions by the DNR in the request and save those for private discussions with interested legislators. We need to get many groups in favor of the audit for a variety of reasons. Business groups, metro residents with too many deer, farmers, and those in the northeast whoa re concerned about conifer regeneration and moose populations. then our legislators will listen.

I am still waiting for comments from the Wis. forum members on their opinion of the recent audit in their state. I know little about Wis. hunting and have not lived there for over 30 years. My gut feeling is that I am not impressed with the results.

I hope that the threat of an audit leads to changes in our DNR and that the audit will not be necessary.

Asking for an audit reminds me of the saying... Be careful what you ask for, as you just might get it.

I fear an audit might lead to lower deer populations in the northeastern part of the state, lower populations in ag areas, and the hunter being left out by a group of people doing the audit who have no interest in hunting. Just my two cents... What if the audit leads to more goal setting based on social carrying capacity and not sound biology?
 
"I just was wondering how many people feed the deer during the winter and then complain about too much browsing on their shrubs in the summer."

Easy to answer. MANY!
I love reading the comments sections in publications like the Star/Tribune in replies to the outdoors articles in general. I bet I could pick with great accuracy which people complain about the dangers of driving with all the deer we have now, and how many pounds of wildlife(deer) feed they purchase annually.... :)
And the majority of those complainers are already in zone 601...... Where its unlimited harvest already, and yet they wont let people on their land to kill bambi....
 
Super busy today, so I will keep this as short as I can.

I feel we should skip the complaints about specific actions by the DNR in the request and save those for private discussions with interested legislators. We need to get many groups in favor of the audit for a variety of reasons. Business groups, metro residents with too many deer, farmers, and those in the northeast whoa re concerned about conifer regeneration and moose populations. then our legislators will listen.

You only need to concern yourself with getting "enough" folks onboard to initiate the audit, everyone else is just extra baggage and a waste of resources to try to sway them. Concentrate on the "low hanging fruit" get as many of the easy groups on board as fast as you can. How many that will take and which groups those are is probably different in MN than it is anywhere else, you will have to sort that out for yourselves. If "everyone" is not on board, that's ok, you won't need all of them. You can't make everyone happy, ever. Get in you Governors head, it worked in WI.

I am still waiting for comments from the Wis. forum members on their opinion of the recent audit in their state. I know little about Wis. hunting and have not lived there for over 30 years. My gut feeling is that I am not impressed with the results.

I will say this as one of the biggest critics of the "deer czar" Kroll Report audit that recently took place. I am very excited about the changes to our rules and management policies. The biggest thing is, my daughter is very excited about the coming changes, she doesn't understand all of what's going on, but enough to know that it should make our herd and hunting better in a few short years if it is handled correctly and the new rules are followed without to much DNR tinkering. I could go into details, but I don't have time right now.

I hope that the threat of an audit leads to changes in our DNR and that the audit will not be necessary.

Changes made without an audit will be short term at best. Something needs to be done to the way your long-term management is handled. In 2 or 3 years your DNR will be back to it's old shenanigans. Your changes need to reflect that the DNR cannot just go back to the fly-by -the-seat-of-there-pants management tactics that they currently use.

Asking for an audit reminds me of the saying... Be careful what you ask for, as you just might get it.

We didn't implement everything that was suggested by our auditors, that is why you have to stress that hunter involvement in the process is key in the audit request. Suggestions get made and discussion by involved groups have final say in what gets implemented. It doesn't always work that way 100% because some things are dependent on others to work properly, so you have to look at the big picture.

I fear an audit might lead to lower deer populations in the northeastern part of the state, lower populations in ag areas, and the hunter being left out by a group of people doing the audit who have no interest in hunting. Just my two cents... What if the audit leads to more goal setting based on social carrying capacity and not sound biology?

If any of those things you fear actually happen, it is because those who are requesting the audit let them happen. Your not trying to fix individual localized populations of deer numbers, you are fixing the model so it better represents a broader and more varied range of habitat and localized populations. The folks doing your audit have to have an interest in hunting or what qualifies them to lead the audit? As the folks requesting the audit you should be making suggestions on who or at least the types of guys you would like to do your auditing. It is an external audit, so no one from in the state of MN should really be involved, unless maybe you have some biologists at UM that you trust to not be in anyone's pockets. Again, you stress a science based approach to your management, that keeps the social aspect to a minimum and the science based biology at the forefront.
 
Super busy today, so I will keep this as short as I can.

Appreciate your help whip. Been there and done that helps us avoid 'wish I would or would not have.'
 
I feel we should skip the complaints about specific actions by the DNR in the request and save those for private discussions with interested legislators. We need to get many groups in favor of the audit for a variety of reasons. Business groups, metro residents with too many deer, farmers, and those in the northeast whoa re concerned about conifer regeneration and moose populations. then our legislators will listen.
?

I cant get there. Those specific actions by our DNR need to be shared to get people fired up and request the audit. Heads may roll. People may be reassigned. Incompetence, agenda, arrogance. It does not matter what got us here. There are no secrets in the plan from my view. The DNR has done a horrible job with the deer herd and its time for some lumps.

That approach has gotten us this far. Changing the course now does not make sense to me.

We have STRONG evidence that suggests a severe mismanagement of our deer herd. 50% declines on 9% agreed to reductions.

I don't want a seat at the DNR table. I want somebody to clean it and start cooking up something new. They have it coming. It's fair. It's necessary.
 
Thank you for the input, whip and Brooks. I feel it will be hard to get enough legislators to approve the audit without wider support.

In Wis., who decided which people were involved in the audit?

Is there a way we can assure reasonable people are involved in Minnesota?

Brooks-My feeling is that heads will roll before the audit is voted on.
 
Your elected would be ill advised to publicly go against the audit when the fact set is presented to them. It would be much easier to say 'we are exploring options to get our hands around an isolated hot spot' than it would be to ignore what has happened to the herd in MN.

And if the hunters of MN can not apply the pressure for them to vote yes then they take what they are given.

MDHA will back the audit. Watch the resolution fly through next January.

Electeds name will be on record with their position.


MN DNR suggests potential for lowest deer harvest in 33 years?​

Is your elected voting yes to the proposed audit of our DNR management model that suggest the herds only 10% smaller?​

Find out at MNBowhunters.org (mndeerhunters.com be even better)​
 
Thank you for the input, whip and Brooks. I feel it will be hard to get enough legislators to approve the audit without wider support.

You do need wider support, just make sure you get the groups that are willing to move forward with changes, in areas with too few deer as well as too many. Other groups that are on the fence, you need some of them as well, the groups who will not budge, don't waste your resources on those guys, they will cost you more time and effort than they are worth. Remember, low hanging fruit!

In Wis., who decided which people were involved in the audit?

It depends on how you look at it bur, the hunters of WI were pi$$ed at our own DNR and complaints went to the Capitol in Madison about the incompetence of our DNR to make the needed changes to improve our hunting and we demanded outside "help". Governor Walker must have decided then to Google "deer biologists" and Dr. Kroll's name was in many of his hits, so he and some of the other higher ups decided to go with Dr. Kroll as the "deer trustee" and Dr. Gary Alt and Dr. David Guynn Jr. as his advisors. The only gripe I had was with Kroll and his Texas high fence agenda. There were many others I would have liked to see instead of him, but I won't go into that here.

Is there a way we can assure reasonable people are involved in Minnesota?

Maybe, spell out that you want experienced biologists with intimate knowledge of northern deer herds, as I think that applies to more areas of MN than it did WI, as much of our state is farther south than you. That would be imperative in my book, no Texas guys, unless they have worked exclusively with deer herds in the northern tier of states for at least 5 years.

Brooks-My feeling is that heads will roll before the audit is voted on.

Don't hold your breath, I wouldn't count on it.

sandbur, I can only give you my thoughts from personal experiences, and I will leave you with this example of how it affected me and will affect me moving forward. Last season, my daughter only hunted 1 day of the 9 day gun season mostly due to other obligations of school and work. The issue I had with that is, she didn't even care that she missed the season, due to low herd numbers in our area for the previous several seasons. This season, after I explained the changes to her, she is as gung-ho to get out in the woods as she ever has been, even knowing the changes may take a year or three to notice the results. Even my 19yo daughter can see that the proposed changes are far better than the status quo we were operating with before the audit. Even though we hunt on public land, now that we have separate antlerless tag quotas for public vs private lands, she can see that if handled correctly, the herd on public ground will rebound and present opportunities in the near future.
 
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Art, I have to say I don't understand why you'd be "anti-audit"? If you think our DNR is going to "work things out" on their own I think you're fooling yourself. Will an external audit "fix" everything here? Probably not. Will it point us in the right direction? I think it will
I feel that if not mishandled again, WI is now headed in the right direction. One thing that remains to be seen is how DMAP will affect antlerless quotas on public lands that are eventually enrolled in the program. I am still waiting to see how this will be handled.
 
I wouldn't be too concerned with trying to make everyone happy. It didn't help the hunters before and it won't help us now. The small number of people who think we have too many deer in isolated areas don't seem to be pushing for changes so I would exclude them. I really think your clear examples will show there was a problem caused by poor management and if you list enough of them it will be clear that they are not isolated issues. I would just recommending talking about more areas so hunters in every zone feels like they have something to gain from this as well. If you only talk about zone 2 or zone 3, the guys in the other zones might think they have nothing to gain. But I'm not exactly sure the best way to word that.

There are hunters in every corner of the state that think we don't have enough deer and that the DNR doesn't care. I think hunters more fired up than they have been before, so I would be hesitant to change tactics or take your foot off the gas now since it's worked remarkably well. I think the long term change will come if we can get people fired at the DNR. Right now they seem to think that they can do whatever they want and the hunters will idly sit by and watch it happen. If a few people are fired and replaced with more hunter friendly biologists, it will change the DNR's decision making process for a long time.
 
Art, I have to say I don't understand why you'd be "anti-audit"? If you think our DNR is going to "work things out" on their own I think you're fooling yourself. Will an external audit "fix" everything here? Probably not. Will it point us in the right direction? I think it will
My mind is not made up and I will listen to the discussions..

Change is needed, but the request for the audit must be carefully worded to reflect advantages to the general public and not just to the hunter. Could we pass it without metro legislators?
 
I'm just a little concerned that if we try to water down the message to get more people on board we may lose some momentum. Right now the deer herd is way down and the DNR doesn't acknowledge there has been a significant drop (generally speaking). Or they're starting to use the bad winters as the cause of the problem when in most cases it was poor management. Throw in the secret, unacknowledged maximum allowable deer herd size in each unit (see unit 342) and it's clear there is a problem and the DNR is managing the herd for everyone but the hunters. I don't expect an audit to be a magic bullet that solves everything, but it can be successful if it just reminds the DNR that they need to manage the herd with the hunters in mind as well.
 
When one looks at the facts and results from the MDDI efforts and hunter satisfaction, and more......then, one thing seems certain: The MNDNR's model used to manage the deer herd has been either mismanaged, is out of date, or otherwise broken - or all of the above. An audit would point out what needs to be corrected.....and set the DNR on the right path. AUDIT!
 
Could we pass it without metro legislators?

Why would a metro legislator not want to help fix a broken system? What reasons would they give for saying no to the audit?
 
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