Maximizing Chestnut Growth with Rootmakers - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

i too, go from rm18s to 1gal, then 3 gallon. this spring i did it with grape cuttings, next year it will be wild plums from seed.
dr whitcomb would be mad at us for the 4 inch rule, but we are dealing in much smaller quantities and the 'labor' for us is enjoyment, so the more frequent transplanting is ok.
its really neat when you can grab them stem and pull the plants and the whole 1 or 3 gallons of soil out with it in one big clump.
i dont put extra osmocote on top. it doesnt seem to get to the right temp to break down. the little that does break down makes it easier for the moss to grow on the surface. just make sure to add osmocote into the mix you use when you upsize the containers.
i also water with root stimulator/transplant solution about once a week and a real thorough soaking after i upsize the container. its a 4-10-4 concentrate that i mix 2 oz per gallon of water. that stuff seems to really work well. ive used 2 kinds, bonide root and grow and miracle grow root stimulator, and both seem to do the trick.

Thoes are some nice looking tree's Jack!!
Do you trim the lower branches when they spur off from the nodes at the leaves, or do yours not product suckers and spurs?
Mine seem to try to take over and if I let them they will out grow the central leader in no time at all, so it seems as if I am pruning my trees all the time.
Is this ok?

 

[yoderjac]

Some Dunstans seem to take more of the American form growing straight and tall and others take more of the Chinese form branching early.
The one in the picture I've been showing took the American form. If you look, you will see there is one side branch starting near the base, but other than that there is no branching.
I'm sure that tree would have been even taller if I had removed that branch early on. I have another one treated exactly the same that took more of the Chinese form. It has multiple branches and is only about half as tall but much more bushy. Both trees are very close in caliper.
If you have the time and can keep up with it, I don't see any issue with early pruning. You can't wait (which is why I didn't prune the one) because you don't want to remove a high percentage of the leaves. If you catch branching early, you remove it before it can use much energy and the energy is put into other branches. If you wait until it has a bunch of leaves, a lot of energy went into producing them and the plant gets nothing back after you prune.
I even considered pruning some of my trees in the field to encourage more upward growth to get them out of browse range sooner. I decided against it because I didn't want to remove that much foliage after green-up. I doubt it would have hurt them too bad, but best practice is to prune before they get that far or don't prune at all.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well folks, it looks like I've created another challenge for myself. I just realized that I don't want to actually wait until these trees go dormant to plant them because that will be right in the middle of hunting season. If I wait until after the season, I'll need to protect them from freezing until I'm ready to plant.
Fortunately, since they are roomaker trees, I can plant them anytime as long as there is sufficient water, and from September on, we usually get enough rain.
So, what's my problem? Transportation. If I wait for them to go dormant I could transport them on my open trailer. With leaves, I need to build an enclosure on my trailer to protect them from the wind.
Seems like there is always some unintended consequence!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

i too, go from rm18s to 1gal, then 3 gallon. this spring i did it with grape cuttings, next year it will be wild plums from seed.
dr whitcomb would be mad at us for the 4 inch rule, but we are dealing in much smaller quantities and the 'labor' for us is enjoyment, so the more frequent transplanting is ok.
its really neat when you can grab them stem and pull the plants and the whole 1 or 3 gallons of soil out with it in one big clump.
i dont put extra osmocote on top. it doesnt seem to get to the right temp to break down. the little that does break down makes it easier for the moss to grow on the surface. just make sure to add osmocote into the mix you use when you upsize the containers.
i also water with root stimulator/transplant solution about once a week and a real thorough soaking after i upsize the container. its a 4-10-4 concentrate that i mix 2 oz per gallon of water. that stuff seems to really work well. ive used 2 kinds, bonide root and grow and miracle grow root stimulator, and both seem to do the trick.

Could you wrap burlap around the 3 gallon containers and lay them flat? The burlap so you don't lose any mix and maybe water before transport. I see landscapers doing this with bigger trees all the time. I would think it be ok with your trees. Just a thought.

Just ran into the same problem. I planted 30 of them out of 3 gallon pots yesterday and needed to transport about 1.5 hours on the freeway to get them to the farm.
Had to borrow my dad's truck that had a topper. They were about 60" tall and fit...but barely. I stacked the pots up against the back window innthe bed about 2 rows deep and about 4 pots high kinda putting the second row in between the trunkss of the first row as I stacked.
Tube is 5' tall for reference :

http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/MJRUSZ/media/20150828_104246.jpg.html

 

[yoderjac]

My 10K flatbed equipment trailer has brackets for 2x4s on the side. I think I'm going to build panels that I can slide in. I'll use tarps to cover each panel. Rather than enclosing the entire trailer, I'm just going to enclose the front half.
I have to finish the fall plant first, but I'll post some pics after I build it.
Your tree looks like it made it in great shape!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

It has been a bit since I updated the status. We are now into September so I don't have much growing season left. I happened to measure the tree again today. It doesn't look much different so I didn't take another picture to post, but it is now 73 1/2" tall. It can't grow too much more in the couple weeks we have left.

 

[yoderjac]

Fellows Your Trees are Whoopers!
Big Eight that photo tells it. The tube is 5' or 60" so that tree is over 80" tall. It looks great.
Jack your photos with the tape measure continue to impress. Now that I will have time - I do have concerns about planting larger trees.
Anyone that is thinking if they could grow a tree - please read this thread. It can be done & the people on this forum write it up well and show it with photos.
I hope you get the rain those trees need at appropriate times.
Good luck.
wbpdeer

 

[yoderjac]

What impresses me is not just the height. I've seen plenty of tall lanky Dunstans that could not support themselves. It is the combination of height and caliper. Three quarter inch caliper in about 7 months is amazing.

 

[yoderjac]

Here is a pic of the current caliper:

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
That is the All American Tree.
You better get it planted before it gets bigger or your back will start acting up again.
A tree such as that one makes up for the ones on the other end of the growth curve.
Do you have other trees showing that type of amazing gain.
Thanks for sharing.
wbpdeer

Wayne,
I planted most of my chestnuts directly from 18s this spring because I was using my 1 gal RB2s for pawpaws and persimmons. I decided to keep two of them and test upsizing of multiple containers. One tree (the one in the picture) took more of the American form and only has one branch. It grew tall and straight and is over 6'. The other one took more of the Chinese form with lots of early branching and is only about 1/2 as tall. However, both have about the same amount of total leaf mass and both have about the same caliper at the base. I've convinced myself that this is not an anomalous tree. Both were random seedling chosen from the group of 18s. The were not the biggest or smallest.
Since my plan is to transplant to 1 gal RB2s while they are still indoors next year and I'm limited to about 50 containers, I will be choosing the strongest growers and either culling, selling, or just planting the rest directly from 18s.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, how do the trees you planted this spring directly from the 18s compare to these? I'm gathering nuts now for my first attempt at growing chestnuts from seed. Even have a few pawpaw seeds I'm gonna try to grow, picked and ate my first wild pawpaw a few days ago and saved the seeds. I want to try this system with the chestnuts but trying to decide if it's worth the expense and time.

Skin_dog,
Not even close. When I directly plant chestnuts from 18s in the spring, I don't get much growth that first year. The first year, I started two batch. I transplanted some of the trees into 1 gal rb2s indoors and others to 5" bags. I then started a second batch in the 18s.
I planted the 2nd batch directly from the 18s in the spring. I planted most of the 1st batch in the spring from the 1 gals and all the 5" bags in the spring and I saved some of the 1 gals to plant in the fall.
One note is that I had heavy Japanese beadle infestation that first year. The trees in the field were only mildly impacted. Trees in the 1 gals were hit heavily because they were grouped together. Also, I was still learning when it came to watering that first year. I don't think I got any benefit from keeping them in the 1 gals over the summer that year.
At any rate, if I look at the first year planting now, I have a few trees in the 8' to 10' range. They have not produced yet. I'd say most of the trees are in the 4' to 6' range. Those were likely planted from the 1 gals and 5" bags, not directly from 18s. There are lots of trees that are 4' or less. They were mostly planted from the 18s.
The root system in the 18s is much smaller. That makes them much easier to plant but they don't grow nearly as fast in my native soils as trees from upsized containers.
I can't say what is right for you. As for me, I tried the high volume approach. This year, I'm going to focus on fewer larger trees by upsizing containers and fall planting. I'm going to order 50 3 gal RB2s specifically for chestnuts. I will start them early from nuts in 18s, transplant them to 1 gal rb2s in 12-16 weeks while still indoors and transplant to the 3 gal RB2s in early summer. I plan to start way more than 50, so I'll do this with my strongest trees. I'm not sure what I'll do with the rest. I may plant some directly from 18s or maybe sell them if someone nearby wants them next spring.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

jack,
for those of us that are enamored with your success with chestnuts, can you just give us a timeline/heightline on these trees
you mention 4 ft, 6 ft, 8 ft and 10 ft.
how old are each height range and if you can compare say a "x" year old tree from planting from 18s is the same height as a "y" year old tree from a 1 gallon.

I wish I had kept better records. I described in the previous post what I did the first year. The second year, I planted everything in the spring and most were from 18s. I replaced trees that had died. Keep in mind that I learned a lot that first year. One of my big mistakes was skimping on the protection. I used 18" protex tubes that I vented myself and tried a few 3' and 4' tubes. In all cases I use 3' of rigid mesh above the tube. The biggest mistake was using bamboo to stake the protex tubes. Most of these either snapped in the wind or rotted in the ground by the next year. By the time I was able to replace them, many were browsed.
I have since switched to 5' Plantra tubes. These are more expensive but less work and protect much better. So, the variety in tree development is due to a variety of factors. When they were planted, how big there were when planted (18s verses 1 gals), whether they were set back by browsing or by Japanese beetles. I have come to believe (anecdotal evidence only) that the blue protex tubes attract Japanese beetles and the tan Plantra tubes don't.
Also, in the early years, I was still learning and had issues with water. I now have a rain water system I use.
Given so many variables, and inadequate record keeping (since I was focused on volume), I can't really give you a good timeline on my fielded trees.

I can say this. The experiment this year was only with 3 trees. All three started indoors but a little on the late side. Two were transplanted to 1 gal RB2 about mid-April when I took them outside. The other was transplanted into a 5" roottrapper bag. The two that were in 1 gal RB2s were transplanted to 3 gal in early summer. When I looked at the rootball the transplant occurred only slightly on the early side, but that is what Dr Whitcomb suggests to maximize growth.
Of those two trees one took the Chinese form with early branching so it grew low and bushy. The other seen in the picture is over 6' tall and only has one branch. Both trees are about the same caliper at 3/4" or slightly more.
The third tree in the 5" bag is about 18" tall with a small caliper.
The points I'm trying to make in this thread are these:
1) Keeping a tree through the summer in a 5" bag or 1 gal container seems to offer little benefit over planting that same tree in the spring. However, if you make timely transplants of the tree up to a 3 gal RB2 container, you can really maximize growth in 1 season.
2) After trying a high volume low cost approach, planting from 18s in the spring and minimizing protection trying overwhelm deer with trees, I have come to the conclusion that my resources are better spent planting fewer trees that are larger with bigger root systems. This is higher cost both in labor and dollars on a per tree basis. I still need volume in the long run, but from now on, I'll be planting fewer chestnuts each year (around 50 verses 150-200). I'll be keeping them at home over the summer upsizing eventually to RB3s and then planting them in the fall.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

How difficult are these to grow under lights I would like to do this with some Americans tht I'm gonna try to graft this spring again. I had some grafts take but I think I raised the ph of the soil with my watering and killed them the leaves started turning yellow and eventually died. How do you collect your rain water? Do you think these are the same to grow as the Americans?

Chestnuts are chestnuts when it comes to starting them indoors under lights. They are not hard. Start with Rootmaker Express tray 18s under shop lights. Keep the lights 2"-3" above the trees. After 12-16 weeks transplant them to 1 gal Rootbuilder II containers. You can plant them after the last threat of frost in the spring or keep them through the summer. If you keep them through the summer and want to maximize growth transplant to 3 gal RB2s. Also, use a good mix like Promix bx in the 18s. I mix promix bx 50/50 by volume with mini pinebark chunks for the 1 and 3 gal containers.
Chestnuts like acidic soil. Most city water (and the professional mixes) are adjusted to neutral pH. Using rain water has about the right acidity for them. City water can also have a lot of salts in them that can build-up in containers.
There thread shows pictures of my rain water collection system: https://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69282
I have 2 old 30 gallon gly drums that I keep in my basement. I use the transfer pump to fill them before the first frost. I'll then fill 5 gal buckets and let them sit outdoors. I'll then flip the diverter and open the tank so it is completely drained for the winter and does not freeze with water in it.
I then disconnect the transfer pump and take it indoors and connect it to the 30 gal drums. As I use water, I'll bring those 5 gal buckets inside and let them thaw and then add them to the drums.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I thought some pictures might help. These two trees were planted at the same time:

The second one lost the protection and I did not replace it. The first tree had good protection and grew well. It is roughly 9' tall and was planted my very first year in the spring from a 1 gal rb2.

This is the tree I started this winter and upsized the containers at the right time. I took this picture right before I removed the one branch and tubed it.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here is a final picture of that chestnut with the one branch pruned off and it tubed and mulched:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

This has been a great read Jack!
Thanks for taking the time to share your progress and instructions!

Jack, I notice you use weed-barrier mats. Have you used them for many years? I quit using them several years ago because I noticed the trees would root right under the mats and on top of the soil. That was fine as long as the mats remained in place but once the mats came off by whatever method (man, wind, critters, etc) it really stressed the trees with the exposed roots to the point that some died. It was not chestnut trees that this happened on but oaks and crabapples but I suspect the same thing would happen to other species.
I am not criticizing your method just trying to learn if you have had long-term success using them on chestnuts and possibly help someone prevent future problems. It is no fun to invest several years in a tree and when it is really growing well and looking good it dies from a mistake I made. This is just another in a long list of tree propagating lessons I learned the hard way!:(
I have a thousand or so of these mats that are brand new that I dont plan to ever use for this very reason. I would sell them cheap if anyone wants them

Don,
PM me the size and price of the tree mats you would sell if you don't mind.
Thanks
wbpdeer

Just sent you a PM. I just got a chance to dig them out and get a count this evening. There are right at 750 of them and they are 36" x 36".

Don,
If they're not all spoken for I might be interested in some as well.
Matt

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, I notice you use weed-barrier mats. Have you used them for many years? I quit using them several years ago because I noticed the trees would root right under the mats and on top of the soil. That was fine as long as the mats remained in place but once the mats came off by whatever method (man, wind, critters, etc) it really stressed the trees with the exposed roots to the point that some died. It was not chestnut trees that this happened on but oaks and crabapples but I suspect the same thing would happen to other species.
I am not criticizing your method just trying to learn if you have had long-term success using them on chestnuts and possibly help someone prevent future problems. It is no fun to invest several years in a tree and when it is really growing well and looking good it dies from a mistake I made. This is just another in a long list of tree propagating lessons I learned the hard way!:(
I have a thousand or so of these mats that are brand new that I dont plan to ever use for this very reason. I would sell them cheap if anyone wants them

I did have a similar issue when I first started with trees. I planted bare root Jujube trees. I dug a large hole and amended the soil. I used a lot of peat, compost, and such. Not a good idea in clay. I used weed mats and mulched over them. I recently removed one of the cages from around the jujube and the weed mat was removed in the process. A few days later we got some wind that that jujube blew over. I ended up standing it back up and getting a loader full of native clay and hand shoveled it around the tree. I think much of the Jujube root mass stayed in the amended area.
I have not had any such issues with the rootmaker trees. With those, I'm using an auger, creating a deep hole and amending below but not to the sides. With this method and using rootmaker grown trees, I have not had any issues with the mats.
By the way, I invite criticism. I'm always learning...
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I have approximately 750 of these mats and the staples for them. They are 36" x 36" and from Tree-Pro. They are advertised on their website for .95 cents each. If someone takes them all I will sell them for .35 cents each plus shipping. I dont have the time to divide them up for multiple orders. Thanks:)

Anyone who is not still learning is no longer breathing!;) However with age comes wisdom so as I get older I try to learn from others mistakes instead of making them all myself!:)

 

[yoderjac]

Jack....
What is required to get a Wholesale account....for the purchasing discount?
Also, could you list a "tree planting jumpstart" kit?
Listing everything one would need to start a tree growing setup like you have done.........I know that this is a lot to ask.
I need to go down this road as I have hundreds of trees that i want to
start and plant.
Thanks

Ross,
I simply called Rootmaker and told them I had a tree farm and asked for a wholesale account. I use the web site for pricing but I call to place orders.
While the wholesale prices are much lower, shipping was more than I expected. This seems to be because with some containers, the sides and bottoms come from different places so there are two UPS bills.
The total is definitely less expensive wholesale.
As for a jumpstart kit, I think that may depend a lot on the individual. The way I do things is largely because of what I have available and what I don't. At a macro level you need:
1) An indoor growing setup with lights, heat, and humidity.
2) You need access to water. I'm using rainwater but there are alternatives. You just need to make sure you either use rainwater or know your water chemistry.
3) You need 18s, 1 gal and 3 gal RB2s.
4) You need a good mix. I use promix bx in the 18s and a 50/50 mix by volume of promix bx and mini pine bark chunks in the larger containers.
5) You need Osmocote Plus
6) you need some mechanism to cold stratify seeds and ensure you don't get kinks in the root radicles.
7) you need good timing and a lot of luck.
There are lots of threads that show things I've tried for each of these over the years with details and pictures. I believe Wayne has a thread with links to some of these. You could also use the search functions and look for threads on this forum that I started. I think the only tree thread on the food plot forum I started was the Sex Change thread (persimmon grafting). The rest are on here.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

As far as getting an account setup it's surprisingly pretty easy. My dad owns a cattle\farming operation so I opened one up under that.
Matt