Maximizing Chestnut Growth with Rootmakers - Transfered from QDMA forum
- Thread starter yoderjac
- Start date
TreeDaddy
5 year old buck +
Unless you just want to, starting chestnuts indoors under lights is unnecessarily tedious and complicated
Our growing season is long and you can reach 3 gal RBII in one season by starting right now
Start your RM18 trays NOW and put them outside
Move them indoors only if a freeze is imminent....then put them back outside
They will be ready for 1 galRBII before May ( probably sooner)
Then the priority is water. With a soilless media, you can not over water them in Texas heat
They will be ready for 3 gal RBII by August Water,water,water
Our first freeze is mid November and growing season ends........
Transplant to field or keep another year
bill
Our growing season is long and you can reach 3 gal RBII in one season by starting right now
Start your RM18 trays NOW and put them outside
Move them indoors only if a freeze is imminent....then put them back outside
They will be ready for 1 galRBII before May ( probably sooner)
Then the priority is water. With a soilless media, you can not over water them in Texas heat
They will be ready for 3 gal RBII by August Water,water,water
Our first freeze is mid November and growing season ends........
Transplant to field or keep another year
bill
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I completely agree with Bill. The whole idea of starting them indoors under lights is to give them a longer growing season the first year so they are larger and better developed when eventually transplanted into the field. I'm in zone 7a so I can extend the growing season by several months. Folks in warmer zones should take advice from Bill and others who already have long growing seasons. It is much easier for me to maintain my trees after they go outside. It would be great if I could start them outside.
Angus 1895
5 year old buck +
I am in zone 5A and I got them started at 40 degrees been gone two weeks I wonder if some have poked through the soil
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Let us know how things are developing when you get back!
1stBattBestBatt
Buck Fawn
@yoderjac et al,
Property where the trees will reside is in Zone 5a, I live south of the property in Zone 6a so the trees will get outside and begin hardening up sooner than they would up at the property. I have an enclosed trailer to transport them north when the weather warms up at the property. My dad lives near the property and is able to water and tend to the seedlings on a weekly basis during the growing season. My dad and I were able to grow out and plant 20 chestnut and red oak trees using more traditional growing methods outside in 1-gal black fabric bags. After reading about everyone's experiences and now attempting to capitalize on the great advice, we want to up our seedling numbers to 50 3-gal planted next year. We plan to start with with 200 18s, culling to 100 1-gal RM, and 50 3-gal RM. I would like to transplant the 50 culled 1-gal seedlings into 50 3-gal black fiber bags and sell them to help recover some of the initial start up cost of buying all the RM trays and pots.
Are the Express 18 w/Shuttle trays worth the extra expense over the standard 18 tray or 18 tray pull-apart? The trays will be used for no more than five seasons.
Are the RBII 1-gal (RB1) (216 cubic in) worth the extra expense over the original RMI-1R 1-gal (190 cubic in)? The price is nearly double for 10% more cubic space. Pots both 1-gal and 3-gal will be used for no more than five seasons.
Are the RBII 3-gal (RB3) (864 cubic in) worth the extra expense over the original RMI-3 3-gal (600 cubic in)? Again, the price is nearly double, BUT there is significantly more cubic space, 30%, and there is likely benefit to the flat bottom for the entire diameter of the pot when it comes to transplanting them at their final destination.
I will begin propagation inside in my basement using a similar table, fan, humidification, and shop light set up that has been shared with the group before.
the seeds will be cold stratified and acclimated to indoor ambient temperature at the first of the year. Seeds will spend 12 to 16 weeks in 18s before being transplanted into TBD 1-gal in April.
The seedlings will spend 12 to 16 weeks in the 1-gal before being transplanted into TBD 3-gal in August.
The seedlings will spend the rest of the growing season until they go dormant in the 3-gal before being transplanted in their final destination.
Has anyone transplanted seedlings into 5-gal and then grow them out until the following fall to have more influence on the seedlings for two growing seasons or could the seedlings root ball be constricted by a 5-gal in the second season and transplanting in final destination would need to come sooner than dormancy?
White oaks send out radicals in fall before winter, of course, so I will get them in the TBD 18 trays as soon as possible. How long can I keep them inside in the basement before I should force them to go dormant in my garage? I assume that I can't expect the white oaks to just send out a radical, establish a fall root system and then go right into sprouting a stem and leaves. Or should I start them in my garage and allow them protection from extreme weather and naturally go dormant when the weather turns. I would then bring them in after a dormancy period and allow them to begin growing inside alongside the seeds that required cold stratification.
Property where the trees will reside is in Zone 5a, I live south of the property in Zone 6a so the trees will get outside and begin hardening up sooner than they would up at the property. I have an enclosed trailer to transport them north when the weather warms up at the property. My dad lives near the property and is able to water and tend to the seedlings on a weekly basis during the growing season. My dad and I were able to grow out and plant 20 chestnut and red oak trees using more traditional growing methods outside in 1-gal black fabric bags. After reading about everyone's experiences and now attempting to capitalize on the great advice, we want to up our seedling numbers to 50 3-gal planted next year. We plan to start with with 200 18s, culling to 100 1-gal RM, and 50 3-gal RM. I would like to transplant the 50 culled 1-gal seedlings into 50 3-gal black fiber bags and sell them to help recover some of the initial start up cost of buying all the RM trays and pots.
Are the Express 18 w/Shuttle trays worth the extra expense over the standard 18 tray or 18 tray pull-apart? The trays will be used for no more than five seasons.
Are the RBII 1-gal (RB1) (216 cubic in) worth the extra expense over the original RMI-1R 1-gal (190 cubic in)? The price is nearly double for 10% more cubic space. Pots both 1-gal and 3-gal will be used for no more than five seasons.
Are the RBII 3-gal (RB3) (864 cubic in) worth the extra expense over the original RMI-3 3-gal (600 cubic in)? Again, the price is nearly double, BUT there is significantly more cubic space, 30%, and there is likely benefit to the flat bottom for the entire diameter of the pot when it comes to transplanting them at their final destination.
I will begin propagation inside in my basement using a similar table, fan, humidification, and shop light set up that has been shared with the group before.
the seeds will be cold stratified and acclimated to indoor ambient temperature at the first of the year. Seeds will spend 12 to 16 weeks in 18s before being transplanted into TBD 1-gal in April.
The seedlings will spend 12 to 16 weeks in the 1-gal before being transplanted into TBD 3-gal in August.
The seedlings will spend the rest of the growing season until they go dormant in the 3-gal before being transplanted in their final destination.
Has anyone transplanted seedlings into 5-gal and then grow them out until the following fall to have more influence on the seedlings for two growing seasons or could the seedlings root ball be constricted by a 5-gal in the second season and transplanting in final destination would need to come sooner than dormancy?
White oaks send out radicals in fall before winter, of course, so I will get them in the TBD 18 trays as soon as possible. How long can I keep them inside in the basement before I should force them to go dormant in my garage? I assume that I can't expect the white oaks to just send out a radical, establish a fall root system and then go right into sprouting a stem and leaves. Or should I start them in my garage and allow them protection from extreme weather and naturally go dormant when the weather turns. I would then bring them in after a dormancy period and allow them to begin growing inside alongside the seeds that required cold stratification.
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
Bill booted Jack off the site so I doubt he’ll answer. Maybe someone else can comment. I’d rather direct seed than mess with transplanting between root builder containers.
Angus 1895
5 year old buck +
I think suppressing the tap root is counterproductive , especially if one is considering increasing risk of drought.
Hoytvectrix
5 year old buck +
I can't really speak to the root maker system. I know Jack was quite a fan of it. What I think is kind of interesting is that there are very few professional nurseries that are actually using that system. The vast majority use a gravel bed for growing out seedlings. I have built two, both of which use sand as the media instead of pea gravel. I have a small one at my house and a larger one at my farm.
I actually started a document that will eventually become a post for this forum that details all of the things that I've learned from growing trees from seed indoors. I've grown about four species of oak, multiple hazelnuts, persimmon, and three or four species of chestnut. I tried using root pruning pots and found them very frustrating. I feel like most of the root pruning pots dry out too quickly for my work schedule. I did not use the root makers because I started doing all this during COVID and it was essentially impossible to find the pots or the trays. I have been using just simple propagation pots that are 4"x4"x8". I think these pots work just fine so long as the trees do not get too big and eventually get root bound. So timing is critical for understanding when to start them in the fridge, when to pull them out, and when they could maximize growth before moving outdoors without getting root bound. My suggestion is to be slightly conservative and have smaller seedlings indoors because they will eventually catch up once you take them out side.
I have direct seeded some, but only into a gravel bed, and not in their final location. Part of the reason why I grow plants indoors is because it's a nice winter hobby and I think it's good for the mental health. I have grown several hundred trees from seed for the last two Winters. I think the gravel bed is the way to go. Especially if you can keep them watered at both locations. Grow them indoors in pots and get them into the sand or gravel as soon as the threat of frost is passed, and you have had a chance to harden off the seedlings. I have some chestnut seedlings that have grown four feet in the first year in the gravel bed. You can transplant them anytime throughout the year to the field, but they work best when they are dormant.
I actually started a document that will eventually become a post for this forum that details all of the things that I've learned from growing trees from seed indoors. I've grown about four species of oak, multiple hazelnuts, persimmon, and three or four species of chestnut. I tried using root pruning pots and found them very frustrating. I feel like most of the root pruning pots dry out too quickly for my work schedule. I did not use the root makers because I started doing all this during COVID and it was essentially impossible to find the pots or the trays. I have been using just simple propagation pots that are 4"x4"x8". I think these pots work just fine so long as the trees do not get too big and eventually get root bound. So timing is critical for understanding when to start them in the fridge, when to pull them out, and when they could maximize growth before moving outdoors without getting root bound. My suggestion is to be slightly conservative and have smaller seedlings indoors because they will eventually catch up once you take them out side.
I have direct seeded some, but only into a gravel bed, and not in their final location. Part of the reason why I grow plants indoors is because it's a nice winter hobby and I think it's good for the mental health. I have grown several hundred trees from seed for the last two Winters. I think the gravel bed is the way to go. Especially if you can keep them watered at both locations. Grow them indoors in pots and get them into the sand or gravel as soon as the threat of frost is passed, and you have had a chance to harden off the seedlings. I have some chestnut seedlings that have grown four feet in the first year in the gravel bed. You can transplant them anytime throughout the year to the field, but they work best when they are dormant.
Hoytvectrix
5 year old buck +
I am now moving to using large cone-tainers for all seedlings that I'm growing indoors. I found that you need to grow two to three times the amount of seedlings for the amount of plants you want in the end. Many just develop weird stems or branching patterns and it's really easy to thin them out and save time and space throughout the process. Root makers, Root trapper bags, and other air pruning pots, all take up too much space in my opinion. Purchasing the seeds is relatively inexpensive. I think it's better to have many seedlings growing to be able to choose the best ones to invest time and future space towards.
I’m pretty interested in this gravel/sand bed. Any resource you can provide to explain more in depth?
Hoytvectrix
5 year old buck +
Gravel Beds | The UFOR Nursery & Lab
I have built two. Mine are meant for much smaller seedlings (1-3 year olds), so they are not quite as deep. I typically only go about 12-18" of depth. I went with sand for both of mine, mostly because of cost and accessibility. The premise behind the gravel beds is that you can quickly establish and transplant trees without damaging roots. The media (pea gravel or sand) allow for root growth. I feel like with sand you get a little better water holding capacity but you damage a few of the younger roots when transplanting. I pretty much never water trees in either bed, but occasionally I have spoon fed with fertilizer to push their growth a little bit.
Here are some photos:
We had a number of power line poles that were sitting around and decided to use these for the walls. The finished depth of the sand in this bed is around 18" because we dug down in and then put a weed barrier.
We use this one for bare root trees from Missouri conservation that we couldn't get into the ground. We got behind on finding homes for trees and many are between 6-10 feet.
The catalpas and redbuds are trees that each around 4-5 years old and will have to be cut down.
Three year old persimmon and chestnut oaks.
This is the gravel bed I made out of a raised garden bed at my house. I use it for some of this year's seedlings that I don't know if I can get in their permanent spot or not.
