Making dirt

[swat1018]

I think the difference is volume. In a garden, you can use an extremely high amount of mulch (OM). When you till it into a food plot, you are destroying the soil tilth and introducing oxygen into the soil. The oxygen vastly speeds up action of the aerobic microorganisms and you can actually burn more OM than you are adding. If you have a very high volume of compost to incorporate and do it only once, you may have a net gain.

Personally, I think it is better to build OM from the top down applying it in lesser amounts more frequently. You can introduce manure or compost if you have the time, money, and inclination, but I would top dress it without incorporation. I prefer to grow the OM. This attracts and feeds deer while you are building OM. By using a good choice of crops, you can incorporate the OM without introducing oxygen or disturbing the soil tilth. Plant roots like WR add OM below the surface while the top growth adds OM to the top when it dies. Crops like GHR can add even more OM at deeper levels. Mixing these with clover can help introduce N into the soil. Buckwheat is known as green manure because it scavenges nutrients and decays so quickly releasing them and building OM.

Each year, my crops get better with this approach and I'm using less and less fertilizer.

Thanks,

Jack

In deep mulch gardening, you don't till.l

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, you are recommending he make a 2ft tall mound the length of his plot instead of putting it level with the surface (2ft down)?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Nope. I'm not recommending anything. I'm saying that when you incorporate via tillage, you introduce oxygen which speeds the consumption of OM. If you are not careful, you can consume more OM than you are adding. In addition, the tillage destroys the soil tilth.

I prefer a method that doesn't require adding compost or other external OM. It can be used if you like but you only top dress with it a little each year. I like to grow the OM. Generally my objective is to feed deer or attract them during the season. I can accomplish this improving the quality each year while at the same time improving the soil health. This allows the plant themselves to naturally incorporate the OM over time.

My personal preference is to first do as little damage to what I have and improve from there. I'm not suggesting there are not extreme cases where one has to do some damage to correct past sins. For example when I reclaim logging decks for food plots, I use a sub-soiler. I feel the damage done by the sub-soiler to soil tilth is less than the benefit of relieving the compression caused by the heavy logging equipment with my soil.

Each place is different and so are soils. Without knowing a lot of details, I can't really make a recommendation. Instead, I'm happy to describe what I do and why I prefer it for consideration. There may be other considerations in individual situations that are higher priority.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

In deep mulch gardening, you don't till.l

That is even better. I've also know folks to work very high amounts of decaying matter into gardens. Essentially they are creating a new medium of sorts. I have seen that work well, but there was so much organic matter applied that the bed was raised a couple feet. I think letting it decay top down is a better approach.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Barndog56]

what type of compost

This is a very important question to ask. When compost is done right it's a mixture of carbon and nitrogen, its aerated well, kept moist, and turned at proper intervals. When done right not only will weed seeds be killed but harmful bacteria and fungi will be killed as well, while beneficial bacteria and fungi will flourish. If you can get ahold of that type of compost it can be added in much smaller amounts as it's the bacteria and fungi that are the most important part. Just 1 or 2 tons per acre would be plenty, broadcast on the surface.

 

[Catscratch]

Nope. I'm not recommending anything. I'm saying that when you incorporate via tillage, you introduce oxygen which speeds the consumption of OM. If you are not careful, you can consume more OM than you are adding. In addition, the tillage destroys the soil tilth.

I prefer a method that doesn't require adding compost or other external OM. It can be used if you like but you only top dress with it a little each year. I like to grow the OM. Generally my objective is to feed deer or attract them during the season. I can accomplish this improving the quality each year while at the same time improving the soil health. This allows the plant themselves to naturally incorporate the OM over time.

My personal preference is to first do as little damage to what I have and improve from there. I'm not suggesting there are not extreme cases where one has to do some damage to correct past sins. For example when I reclaim logging decks for food plots, I use a sub-soiler. I feel the damage done by the sub-soiler to soil tilth is less than the benefit of relieving the compression caused by the heavy logging equipment with my soil.

Each place is different and so are soils. Without knowing a lot of details, I can't really make a recommendation. Instead, I'm happy to describe what I do and why I prefer it for consideration. There may be other considerations in individual situations that are higher priority.

Thanks,

Jack

If this is where I think it is, it's river bottom sand and hasn't grown anything (other than a few sticker plants) in decades. There probably is no way to work from the top down and truthfully there is nothing to damage... just sand. I also suspect that it floods periodically, washing away most of his efforts. I think he has one of those extreme cases you mentioned.

Buckdeer1 - I keep thinking of hugelkultur gardens with your idea here. Dig your strip pit, fill the bottom with cottonwood logs, cover it with your manure/topsoil mix, inoculate with a mycorrhizae kit (maybe... I'm not convinced the fungi in the kits can out-compete native species), and sit back to see what happens. I would think within a year it would be a substance with it's microbiome smoothed out and ready to grow stuff.

 

[Northwoods Whitetails]

I think this is becoming a growing interest. I would add David Brandt to the list of people to watch on YouTube. I have watched many of those folks and have received quite an eye opening in a short time. I have read Gabe Browns book ( twice) and would highly recommend it to anyone doing any kind of planting.
To the original question: We use a lot of high biomass plants in the spring like rye, sorghum, oats and some legumes like peas and crimson clover to start building organic matter. In August it’s flattened ( I built a roller crimper) and rye, oats and more crimson clover is planted.
That’s our start in sandy soils.

 

[yoderjac]

If this is where I think it is, it's river bottom sand and hasn't grown anything (other than a few sticker plants) in decades. There probably is no way to work from the top down and truthfully there is nothing to damage... just sand. I also suspect that it floods periodically, washing away most of his efforts. I think he has one of those extreme cases you mentioned.

Buckdeer1 - I keep thinking of hugelkultur gardens with your idea here. Dig your strip pit, fill the bottom with cottonwood logs, cover it with your manure/topsoil mix, inoculate with a mycorrhizae kit (maybe... I'm not convinced the fungi in the kits can out-compete native species), and sit back to see what happens. I would think within a year it would be a substance with it's microbiome smoothed out and ready to grow stuff.

You could be right. I don't know enough about the specifics in this case. I often try to address a subject more broadly giving the OP principles and things to consider knowing that there are a lot of folks reading the thread and trying to apply the information. In the 95% case, I think top down is the way to go. I would contend that if you're right, the periodic flooding may be more of an issue than the sand. That takes us back to the bigger picture of whether the location is really where you want to put a food plot in the first place.

Things go best when we bend nature slightly to achieve our objective. The more we try to bend it, the less success we have at a higher cost.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Barndog56]

inoculate with a mycorrhizae kit (maybe... I'm not convinced the fungi in the kits can out-compete native species), and sit back to see what happens. I would think within a year it would be a substance with it's microbiome smoothed out and ready to grow stuff.

Here's a way to come up with your own mycorrhizae kit. Take a walk around your property in the spring and find any plants or trees that are growing very vigorously. Take a shovel full of dirt from the root zone of the plant and throw it in a bucket. Fill a few bucket fulls and then mix that in with your manure/compost. The higher the variety of plants you take soil from, the higher variety of beneficial biology you'll have.

 

[Catscratch]

Here's a way to come up with your own mycorrhizae kit. Take a walk around your property in the spring and find any plants or trees that are growing very vigorously. Take a shovel full of dirt from the root zone of the plant and throw it in a bucket. Fill a few bucket fulls and then mix that in with your manure/compost. The higher the variety of plants you take soil from, the higher variety of beneficial biology you'll have.

Awesome! Do you do this? I have my doubts that adding mycorrhizae to soil (in most cases) does anything as fungi tend to colonize very well where they can. I also suspect established fungi will out-compete introduced fungi pretty much every time. Where I think a difference can be made is if you have land that has had a fungi kill-off due to fungicide or tillage. ie - I think it would be wise to do what you described around apple trees that get regular fungicide treatments just to make sure the soil keeps it's beneficial mycorrhizae. I'm curious what your thoughts are on this. I believe fungi is very important to soil but think it's already everywhere (except where there is a reason it has died out).

 

[H20fwler]

I'm a fan of old straw and hay bales that are no longer useful being used as a heavy top cover on poor soil and left to compost, just break them up and lay out the squares. They can be had for next to nothing or free, then spread your manure over top of that it will all break up by following spring. Second year broadcast clover seed over it early spring and let it do its thing.

 

[buckdeer1]

It is sand for sure,luckily it doesn't flood where I am looking at and there is some NWSG growing on it.I wonder what would happen if I planted say turnips in spring and let them die and rot.I like the hay idea also and have all I want

 

[yoderjac]

It is sand for sure,luckily it doesn't flood where I am looking at and there is some NWSG growing on it.I wonder what would happen if I planted say turnips in spring and let them die and rot.I like the hay idea also and have all I want

I would not start with turnips. They are an N seeking crop and the biomass is almost completely on top. (Yes, I said build top down, but that is shorthand for not incorporating). Something like WR will put some of the biomass above the soil and a good amount in the root system. It works well with clover which can provide N. The balance of C and N over time helps. You can rotate legumes and grasses or mix them like WR and an inexpensive clover. WR can handle pretty infertile soil. When you do go to brassica, I would choose something like GHR where more of the tuber is below the soil.

If you want to start in the spring, I'd consider throw and roll buckwheat. It can also handle infertile soil. Given your description, you might want to leave the NWSG since it is performing. You could broadcast the buckwheat and roll/crimp the NWSG leaving the root system intact and letting it bounce back. NWSG can have a pretty deep root system.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[JFK52]

On the advice of the farmer who rents my fields, I signed up for a DNR program the very first year I bought my land. I get loads of paper mill sludge delivered for free from the paper mills in Wisconsin Rapids. There is a complicated formula that takes what is grown on the fields that year versus nitrogen credits and determines how often and how much paper mill sludge I can have applied to my fields. It works out that about every three to four years is when I get the product. It was applied this year and was put on pretty thick also. I have these fields mostly no till planted with RR soy beans or corn.
When I did not have the money to plant all large fields into food plots I let the fields go fallow and mowed the weeds on it twice a year. Even that seemed to help the soil. When I rented a 12 acre field, I chose the farmer who wanted to plant alfalfa on it as opposed to the other farmer who was going to plant field corn year after year.

 

[Big Snow Man]

Jk what’s the minimum size field for delivery of sludge? Do you pay the trucking ?

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Id go with Sun Hemp if I was you. Plant early June and and do a TNM cereal plot late August. Sun Hemp is well suited for sandy soil, grows well over ph of 5 and produces a large amount of biomass above and below ground. It is a legume so there will be no need for additional inputs for your TNM cereals come fall.

I would experiment with a TNM Sunn Hemp plot the following mid to late June.

 

[yoderjac]

Id go with Sun Hemp if I was you. Plant early June and and do a TNM cereal plot late August. Sun Hemp is well suited for sandy soil, grows well over ph of 5 and produces a large amount of biomass above and below ground. It is a legume so there will be no need for additional inputs for your TNM cereals come fall.

I would experiment with a TNM Sunn Hemp plot the following mid to late June.

That is a great choice.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Jk what’s the minimum size field for delivery of sludge? Do you pay the trucking ?

I had it applied to my fields as well and it didn't cost anything. The DNR oversees the program to make sure it is spread in the correct locations in the correct dose. That sludge also raises the pH which saves some money there as well. The sludge looks a lot like spitballs, so if you see a field with a bunch of whitish gray stuff on it this is probably it.

 

[JFK52]

Ben.MN/WI is correct. The program costs nothing but there is paper work involved. I have it spread on 26 acres that makes up 5 fields. I had to get written approval from a neighbor who lives within 500 feet of a spread field and she gave it to me . The description of fields being covered with whitish grey stuff is as accurate as I could describe it.
The paper mill sludge is actually spread by a third party who contracts for this job. In my case, the company wants to spread closest to Wisconsin Rapids first and then to outlying areas. This is to keep their transportation costs down. This program has worked great for me. It was spread this spring. My RR ag soybean field that I leave up for the deer looked better and had taller stalks with more pods than most farmers who are growing them as cash crops.

 

[JFK52]

The drawback I see to Sunn Hemp is the cost of the seed especially to do any larger acreage. I looked into it and could not justify how much it cost.

 

[MickT]

The drawback I see to Sunn Hemp is the cost of the seed especially to do any larger acreage. I looked into it and could not justify how much it cost.

Go with a lighter rate or plant it in a mix with buckwheat, sunflower, cowpeas, and some millets. Diversity is the best way to build soils.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk