liming timing?

[Derek Reese 29]

Here's a picture of the field as of this morning...it is wettest down through the middle and closest to the bottom of the picture and driest up towards the top left..the green and yellowish stuff in the top/middle left is the rye and there is some RCG at the bottom..I should be able to get the lime spread tomorrow

 

[yoderjac]

Here's a picture of the field as of this morning...it is wettest down through the middle and closest to the bottom of the picture and driest up towards the top left..the green and yellowish stuff in the top/middle left is the rye and there is some RCG at the bottom..I should be able to get the lime spread tomorrowView attachment 41422

I would stay off a wet field with equipment. You will do more harm than good. I'd wait for dry condition to apply lime. You will be better off in the long run.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I would stay off a wet field with equipment. You will do more harm than good. I'd wait for dry condition to apply lime. You will be better off in the long run.

there are springs all over the top right and near side of this field, so dry conditions are very rare, but I could wait until it freezes back up early next week and spread it then..
my wheeler is only a 300 cc as well but it does sink in at the top sometimes

 

[yoderjac]

there are springs all over the top right and near side of this field, so dry conditions are very rare, but I could wait until it freezes back up early next week and spread it then..
my wheeler is only a 300 cc as well but it does sink in at the top sometimes

Yes, when the ground is frozen solid, it is a great time to lime a normally wet area. Of course in an area that is wet most of the time, I'd be reluctant to put a food plot. If so, T&M perennials is the way to go so it it planted very infrequently.

 

[TreeDaddy]

I would stay off a wet field with equipment. You will do more harm than good. I'd wait for dry condition to apply lime. You will be better off in the long run.

you mean like this?

bill

 

[Wild Thing]

Thanks for that note! This field currently has lots of rye and thistles and a little bit of RCG that survived last year's burn and spraying in it. I am debating whether or not to frost seed clover or wait and spray before adding some alsike and MRC and oats later this spring. It started out at a pH of 5.7 and I added ~250 lbs of lime last year and will add 320 lbs more soon. Hoping this gets the soil pH up higher and will help make the undesirable plants a bit less viable.

You only added 250# of lime when your pH was 5.7? How much did the lab recommend that you add? I am guessing at least 2 tons/acre! 250# is like using a band aid when you really need a tourniquet! Go back to the mill and buy some more lime - at least a pallet full! Just jerking your bobber a little here Derek but don't be surprised if your next soil test doesn't show very little improvement in your pH.

I have almost always used regular bulk ag-lime and applied when I could till it in in the past but with only a small field and partial wetland you are probably better off broadcasting pell lime. In those situations your 3 Pt Cyclone fertilizer spreader works very well for applying pelletized lime. It does create a lot of white dust but it doesnt take long to get it spread.

 

[yoderjac]

you mean like this?View attachment 41438

bill

Actually I was thinking of the soil damage like clay compaction. Of course, if it is wet enough, you can have bigger problems like these.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

You only added 250# of lime when your pH was 5.7? How much did the lab recommend that you add? I am guessing at least 2 tons/acre! 250# is like using a band aid when you really need a tourniquet! Go back to the mill and buy some more lime - at least a pallet full! Just jerking your bobber a little here Derek but don't be surprised if your next soil test doesn't show very little improvement in your pH.

I have almost always used regular bulk ag-lime and applied when I could till it in in the past but with only a small field and partial wetland you are probably better off broadcasting pell lime. In those situations your 3 Pt Cyclone fertilizer spreader works very well for applying pelletized lime. It does create a lot of white dust but it doesnt take long to get it spread.

maybe the field looks bigger than it actually is in the picture, but the area I planted was only about 1/3 of an acre...so it will be 250 lbs last year+320 lbs this year on 1/3 of an acre...which to me comes out to ~1500 lbs/acre..so i think there will be a little progress anyway ;)

 

[Wild Thing]

maybe the field looks bigger than it actually is in the picture, but the area I planted was only about 1/3 of an acre...so it will be 250 lbs last year+320 lbs this year on 1/3 of an acre...which to me comes out to ~1500 lbs/acre..so i think there will be a little progress anyway ;)

OK - So if we are looking at 1/3 acre instead of 4/10 acre and the soil test calls for 2 ton (4,000#) per acre you would still need at least 1,320# of lime (4,000 X 0.33 = 1,320). 250# would not have moved your pH very much. Just sayin…you might want to consider giving your soil the appropriate amount that is called for.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

OK - So if we are looking at 1/3 acre instead of 4/10 acre and the soil test calls for 2 ton (4,000#) per acre you would still need at least 1,320# of lime (4,000 X 0.33 = 1,320). 250# would not have moved your pH very much. Just sayin…you might want to consider giving your soil the appropriate amount that is called for.

good call..math is not my strong point...i just found my old test results now..all of the nutrients were midline and it did call for 2500-3750 lbs/acre..which would put it right under the 2 ton mark....this is a field I am not totally dependent on for attraction (It's my front yard) and I have a better plot above my house which is a former hayfield and grows just about anything very well, I just wanted to have some things growing in it so the RCG and thistles won't overtake it....I do think that RCG likes wetter and poorer pH soil so adding more lime might help with that too....I think for now I'll add the 320 lbs now, then add another 400 in the fall afterI see how the plot turned out....if it's looking ok I dont need to nuke it and start over but if there's alot of weeds and not alot of growth I can always do another round of rye/some annual clovers...

 

[Bassattackr]

you mean like this?View attachment 41438

bill

Move along, nothing to see here..

 

[Mortenson]

Rock back n forth in the seat and that should come right out.

 

[Bassattackr]

OK - So if we are looking at 1/3 acre instead of 4/10 acre and the soil test calls for 2 ton (4,000#) per acre you would still need at least 1,320# of lime (4,000 X 0.33 = 1,320). 250# would not have moved your pH very much. Just sayin…you might want to consider giving your soil the appropriate amount that is called for.

Hang on there a second..

@Derek Reese 29 - Are you spreading pelletized lime? Most soil tests are typically based on Ag lime. Pelletized lime has a much better ENM than most sources of Ag lime due to its particle size. Most references say around 1:10 ratio, albiet this is a shorter term solution with pelletized lime.

So, if your soil test says 2 tons (4,000#) - they are typically assuming a ENM of 2,000 (maximum rating). My local lime has an ENM of around 780 for example. So, if I'm using..

Ag Lime: 4,000# * 2,000 Max ENM / 780 Actual ENM = 10,256# / Ac
Pell Lime: 4,000# * 0.1 = 400# / Ac

Like below:



Now the long term effectiveness of pelletize lime vs Ag lime is also quite different. 1-2 years max for pelletized lime, but 5-7 years for Ag lime. It will depend on the CEC rating of your soil, annual rainfall, etc..

Spread the next time the ground is firm enough your tires don't sink in. Let fly.

 

[yoderjac]

Neither is better in general. There is a lot of factors depending on the soil type to how fast and how long lime has the desired impact. Particulate size is only one. I'm no soil scientist, but I have talked to several and the chemistry is not real simple.

As a broad generalization, I'd says:

- Ag lime is generally much less expensive as a raw product for a comparable CCE.
- When doing significant acreage that has easy access, purchasing applied Ag lime is probably the best bet.
- Transport and application costs and effort can vary a lot.
- Small plots that are hard to access may be good candidates for pelletized lime that can be spread with any old broadcast spreader.
- If you are energy rich and cash poor, small plots can be done picking up Ag lime yourself and using a couple guys with shovels and a pickup.
- I've found that in my area, renting a lime buggy (specifically designed for applying Ag lime) works well for smaller plots. It only holds about 3-4 tons, so multiple trips to the lime source may be needed for larger fields that need significant amendment. I find it great for maintenance lime.

Which lime and application method you choose is less important than getting pH in the right ball park.

 

[Wild Thing]

Hang on there a second..

@Derek Reese 29 - Are you spreading pelletized lime? Most soil tests are typically based on Ag lime. Pelletized lime has a much better ENM than most sources of Ag lime due to its particle size. Most references say around 1:10 ratio, albiet this is a shorter term solution with pelletized lime.

So, if your soil test says 2 tons (4,000#) - they are typically assuming a ENM of 2,000 (maximum rating). My local lime has an ENM of around 780 for example. So, if I'm using..

Ag Lime: 4,000# * 2,000 Max ENM / 780 Actual ENM = 10,256# / Ac
Pell Lime: 4,000# * 0.1 = 400# / Ac

Like below:

View attachment 41451

Now the long term effectiveness of pelletize lime vs Ag lime is also quite different. 1-2 years max for pelletized lime, but 5-7 years for Ag lime. It will depend on the CEC rating of your soil, annual rainfall, etc..

Spread the next time the ground is firm enough your tires don't sink in. Let fly.

Depends upon who you believe Bassattacker…Michigan State University research says otherwise:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjRxbm0rpj2AhWFoFsKHUbJDAwQFnoECDoQAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.canr.msu.edu%2Ffield_crops%2Fuploads%2Farchive%2Fpell_lime_cssi_series.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3lQhm46-1L1QI6a-ACubSI

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I am spreading pelletized lime.

 

[Bassattackr]

Depends upon who you believe Bassattacker…Michigan State University research says otherwise:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjRxbm0rpj2AhWFoFsKHUbJDAwQFnoECDoQAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.canr.msu.edu%2Ffield_crops%2Fuploads%2Farchive%2Fpell_lime_cssi_series.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3lQhm46-1L1QI6a-ACubSI

That article is assuming an extremely high ENM/NM for ag lime. If that's the case, they should be a lot more similar. My local Aglime values aren't anywhere close to 1800 ENM / 90 NM. Not even half that, so it takes a LOT more ag lime for me than pell lime. It's all dependent on your local Aglime options, and the quarries they pull from.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I frost seeded this field on 3/11 with crimson, MRC and Dutch white clover and am already seeing some small sprouts...still a fair amount of small weeds and lots and lots of rye (its the only green field in the neighborhood, besides my upper food plot which exploded this past week with warm temps and was seeded on 3/3)..if the clover does well I will probably just overseed some purple top turnips and rape and maybe some strawberry clover (supposed to be good in wet conditions?) later in the summer...

 

[4wanderingeyes]

This may not be a popular opinion with some of you hardcore plotters, but for the most of us, it is just a hobby, and we enjoy doing it.

For food plotting, keep it fun, dont "math" if you dont want too. We arent trying to live off of our plots, no need for exact measurements, and amendments. Adding some lime per year is helpful, and will get you to where you need to be. Most things we plant will grow fine at 5.7-6.5, so if he added a portion every couple years, he will still be in the zone. I try to keep my plots between 6.3-6.7. I think soil tests are a good way to see what your soils are at in the beginning, then just add some of what it needs to improve your soil, then retest every 5 years or so. Now if his soils were 4.7, then I would say dump a bunch on it, to get it to where stuff will actually grow on it, but at 5.7, he can grow most food plotting plants in that with what he has now, and adding amounts each year is a good way to maintain, and slightly improve the numbers.

Now if he was farming, and dependent on the income from the land, then I would say get the numbers to were they need to be asap, and test every other year until you get the soil where you need it, and figure out the amendments needed to maintain ideal numbers. But it is a food plot, and done on spare time, and spare money, and as a hobby, which should be kept to be fun.

Dont overthink it!

 

[Derek Reese 29]

This may not be a popular opinion with some of you hardcore plotters, but for the most of us, it is just a hobby, and we enjoy doing it.

For food plotting, keep it fun, dont "math" if you dont want too. We arent trying to live off of our plots, no need for exact measurements, and amendments. Adding some lime per year is helpful, and will get you to where you need to be. Most things we plant will grow fine at 5.7-6.5, so if he added a portion every couple years, he will still be in the zone. I try to keep my plots between 6.3-6.7. I think soil tests are a good way to see what your soils are at in the beginning, then just add some of what it needs to improve your soil, then retest every 5 years or so. Now if his soils were 4.7, then I would say dump a bunch on it, to get it to where stuff will actually grow on it, but at 5.7, he can grow most food plotting plants in that with what he has now, and adding amounts each year is a good way to maintain, and slightly improve the numbers.

Now if he was farming, and dependent on the income from the land, then I would say get the numbers to were they need to be asap, and test every other year until you get the soil where you need it, and figure out the amendments needed to maintain ideal numbers. But it is a food plot, and done on spare time, and spare money, and as a hobby, which should be kept to be fun.

Dont overthink it!

Thanks for the comments! I totally do this for fun and have limited cash available (ok if you ask my wife, that's not what she would say) and I am always experimenting and taking notes...last year for me at home was more of a tree planting year and I just added the lime because I knew it was needed...and I added more this year just to keep on the same kinda track...I am always amazed what will grow and where (I have a friend with terrible 4.7 pH pine-woods soil with limited nutrients and he still has lush green plots every year that is helped along by correct plant/variety selection and yes with tons of liming).....I think at this stage of the game (even though I am still pretty "young" by some standards) I most look forward to seeing what the deer and turkeys are eating and when and how can I help them get through the hard times. I'm not saying I wouldn't shoot if a good critter stepped out, but the number of animals I have let walk in the past few years has gone up alot. I certainly appreciate all the advice given on this forum and I don't take anything personally. We all have similar goals for our properties and if you can't take a little fun ribbing when it's dished out then that's too bad. One thing I did have to realize was that we are all from different regions and that what works for people down south (Durana-tried this and ouch, it was bad and planting later in the fall-we might have snow by the time some others are just getting seeds in) may not work for us further up north. Thanks again fellas!