Lime Question

[Wny Hunter]

I am located in WNY , right along the PA border in Ripley , NY. I am going to be having my property logged over the next 2 years. One of the projects that will be put in the contract for the logger is to clear cut a 3 acre parcel of woods for a food plot/apple orchard and to remove all stumps , along with all the tree tops . Upon speaking with the forester , I told him no work can be done during deer season. He suggested that I should then give the loggers a 2 year window to complete the project. My question is after I get a soil test done, can I begin to apply lime to the food plot area? Even though the trees have been yet to be cut. I wasn’t sure if with the logging and stump removal I would be wasting my time. I don’t mind if doesn’t adjust the PH as well as if it was already logged and cleaned up, I just would hate to dump tons of lime with no effect.

 

[roymunson]

I'd think you'll move the needle and get things rolling the right direction, albeit, you may not get complete efficiency like you would if the trees were gone and the ground were not disturbed. Lime's generally a slow release, so I'd say, while you may not get total bang for your buck, the sooner you get things started, the better the ground will be when it comes to being ready to plant.

 

[yoderjac]

I am located in WNY , right along the PA border in Ripley , NY. I am going to be having my property logged over the next 2 years. One of the projects that will be put in the contract for the logger is to clear cut a 3 acre parcel of woods for a food plot/apple orchard and to remove all stumps , along with all the tree tops . Upon speaking with the forester , I told him no work can be done during deer season. He suggested that I should then give the loggers a 2 year window to complete the project. My question is after I get a soil test done, can I begin to apply lime to the food plot area? Even though the trees have been yet to be cut. I wasn’t sure if with the logging and stump removal I would be wasting my time. I don’t mind if doesn’t adjust the PH as well as if it was already logged and cleaned up, I just would hate to dump tons of lime with no effect.

Don't get ahead of yourself. The first thing you need to do is specify everything in your contract. Here are some keys for logging decks (probably what they will use your plot for):

Specify in the contract they must remove and save all top soil, clear the deck and use it, decompress it, re-apply the top soil on top and seed it with Winter Rye not fescue. This will put you years ahead of worrying about lime.

Once they are done you can go in and lime. Winter Rye will produce good deer food even in infertile soil with poor pH.

2 years is pretty standard around here for a timber sale. Also include language to have the properly repair and grade logging roads with water bars and such.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Wny Hunter]

Thanks for the responses.
Jack
The three acre parcel that I’m having clear cut, the intention was not for a logging deck. I wanted it for a apple orchard/food plot ( not much food besides acorns on my property, and not much Ag for miles unless vineyards are considered Ag). I do have one old logging deck on my property and another newer one that butts up to my property that I can use. But now u got me thinking, should I have it put in my contract that the 3 acre parcel cannot be used for a logging deck? When you talk about, “Specify in the contract they must remove and save all top soil, clear the deck and use it, decompress it, re-apply the top soil on top and seed it with Winter Rye not fescue.” , that seems like a lot of demands on the logger and I don’t want to scare potential bidders away by putting that in the contract. Can I avoid all that by simply stating 3 acre parcel cannot be used for logging deck? I don’t mind planting the winter rye myself, I actually planned on it to try and get some organic matter back into the soil. I planned on then doing apple treees the following year, followed by a fall planting of clover/chicory and some strips of brassicas.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the responses.
Jack
The three acre parcel that I’m having clear cut, the intention was not for a logging deck. I wanted it for a apple orchard/food plot ( not much food besides acorns on my property, and not much Ag for miles unless vineyards are considered Ag). I do have one old logging deck on my property and another newer one that butts up to my property that I can use. But now u got me thinking, should I have it put in my contract that the 3 acre parcel cannot be used for a logging deck? When you talk about, “Specify in the contract they must remove and save all top soil, clear the deck and use it, decompress it, re-apply the top soil on top and seed it with Winter Rye not fescue.” , that seems like a lot of demands on the logger and I don’t want to scare potential bidders away by putting that in the contract. Can I avoid all that by simply stating 3 acre parcel cannot be used for logging deck? I don’t mind planting the winter rye myself, I actually planned on it to try and get some organic matter back into the soil. I planned on then doing apple treees the following year, followed by a fall planting of clover/chicory and some strips of brassicas.

If they don't use it as a logging deck, you can skip the decompression step. You may be able to skip this step anyway depending on your soil type. I have heavy clay that compresses to the point nothing will grow if not relieved. You are right that some loggers may not bid on it the more requirements you put in the contract. That will be the first thing a forester will tell you. It all comes down to balance. Many individual that sell timber don't think about all the things up front. Most (but not all) foresters are concerned with the profit from the sale and timber value much more than wildlife. What if the loggers have a major spill of diesel or something else? Who is responsible for cleanup? What happens if improperly graded roads cause significant runoff and there are water quality issues? The folks who buy the timber may not be the ones who log it. Can they subcontract out the logging? Do you have any say in the matter?

So, it boils down to how you want to balance things between timber value an wildlife. If you lean toward timber value you may not want to put any restrictions on the logger. If you lean more toward wildlife value, you may want to include more restrictions related to wildlife. This may result in fewer bidders and lower prices so it is a balance. If you are talking about a large tract of timber close to a mill with good paved road access, you will have more flexibility. Timber companies love these because their cost of moving equipment and transporting logs is lower. The smaller your tract and the further from a mill and the more difficult access to paved roads, the less flexibility. Even with no restrictions you may not get a bidder. All of this is also scaled by the demand for the type of timber you have at the time as well.

You will have to evaluate your situation and decide accordingly. In our case, the timber company was required to seed something to help with erosion by the state. We did not want to deal with killing fescue, so we specified no fescue. They didn't really care what seed they were applying.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Wny Hunter]

In speaking with the two foresters that have come and walked the property (92 acres) with me ( I will be having a third forester coming out at some point within the next week or so) , I stressed the number one reason I am having this property logged is to manage this property for wildlife habitat. The profits from the timber are secondary. I know that kinda stinks for them, but tough, I feel like this is my one shot to turn this property into a year round destination for deer , rather then just passing through when the acorns are dropping. I believe, from what I remember what both foresters stated, I am in decent spot as far as distance from the mills. I have a large tract of tulip poplar that although not as valuable as other variety’s , they are light enough to get a full load on their trucks for transport to the mills. The one hang up I have is I need a logging road repaired to get to some of my maples that are “down below”. The road repair was estimated to cost about 5-6 k , which might lead to less bidders but I need it done before I am unable to get my quad down to certain areas. Both stated I need to cut the woods a lil harder then a selective cut due to it being a somewhat young forest, that wasn’t properly managed for many years (50 + years). I’m hoping this will lead to better regen. Thank you for mentioning the grading and repairing of the logging roads, I def need to have that put in the contract.

 

[H20fwler]

I switched to using gypsum over lime a few years ago, I think it can be used by plants a little faster. I'm in a very high ag area and gypsum in bulk can be had pretty reasonable.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Wny Hunter - Something to maybe look into - are there any other folks close to you (within 5 or 6 miles) that are thinking of logging or have plans to log ?? This may make your logging job more attractive and give you a little leverage for restrictions. Our one logging job at camp became more attractive because we found out another camp about 5 miles up the road was having logging done by the one logger we were getting a bid from. He didn't have to move their equipment very far after he finished the other property, so our bid got better. We also specified that grades and woods roads had to be returned to original condition. It was no problem.

So maybe check around your area. Make some calls, put out some "feelers", stop by and ask neighbors. Ask any loggers you are considering using if they have any jobs near your place. You may end up the better for the effort.

 

[White Birch Farm]

There is no need to restrict wood cutting in the season. First, the deer are likely to be attracted to it. Second, developing a property takes years. If you allow things like that to delay you a year you will never make good progress in a reasonable period.

 

[yoderjac]

We excluded deer season from our contract and I'm very glad we did. I've got a wireless game camera network running 24/7/365. While deer continued to use our food plots during the harvest, the big encroachment in human presence made deer much more nocturnal during a time of year when they normally are not. When done well, timber harvests can really improve wildlife habitat and even hunting in the long run, they can be very disruptive in the short-run. Deer behavior will continue to change for several years after the harvest. This is not bad, but hunting history becomes less valuable.

Here is an example. We had about 20 acres of low quality hardwoods clear cut for bedding and had about 100 acres of pines thinned. We then sprayed herbicide in the clear cuts and conducted controlled burns in both areas. Prior to the harvest, our normal deer pattern was to see lots of deer during archery season. As things progressed to our muzzleloader season, daytime deer sightings dropped slightly as hunting pressure increases were offset by the rut. As we move into firearm season, daytime deer sightings drop dramatically. Firearm season pressure is the highest and dog hunting for deer is permitted in our general area.

In the first hunting season after the harvest deer behavior became very random. With in 2 years, deer patterns were almost reversed. We now see much fewer deer during archery season, about the same during muzzleloader, and many more during firearm season. Here is what happened:

Previously bedding areas and quality food were well defined with bedding on neighboring properties and most of the quality food in our plots. Deer moved back and forth. Now there is a lot of quality native food in cover in the fall as both the clear cuts and the pine understory has responded. So, during archery season, deer are very responsive to hunting pressure. It takes very little pressure for them to simply stay in the cover eating native quality foods until after dark when they use the plots. During muzzleloader season, sex is the driver and all bets are off. Coincidently with our timber management, dog hunting for deer in our area has steadily been reducing, presumably through attrition and lack of suitable land. For the first time this year, I did not see or hear any deer dogs use our farm. So, without pressure from dogs, food becomes a greater driver later in the year. By gun season, quality native foods are beginning to dry up but food plots are planted with crops to provide food throughout the season and beyond.

This is not bad or good, just different. The upside is that the carrying capacity of our land has greatly increased as a result of the management. Deer on your property may respond quite differently, but deer will respond to both the activity of timber harvest as well as the changing habitat afterward.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[White Birch Farm]

Jack,

I suspect your experience is much different than what we see in the Northeast. The increase in available browse on the ground can make an immediate impact in deer use on a property in our fall seasons. Also, from the sounds of it, the OP is not working with an established property. As a result, the longer he puts off the most basic work like logging, the longer it will be before he can do any advanced work, which quickly means taking years to have any meaningful effects increasing his population. Finally, the more time that passes before his basic plans are implemented the longer it will before he will have experience with his deer’s reaction to those improvements meaning further delays before he can fine tune his improvemts.

In short, with a new property, I believe a habitat manager is far better off biting the bullet and getting their basic plans implemented sooner rather later even if it means a short term disruption in their hunting. After all, if they are going to be succesful improving their habitat, the hunting opportunities they may give up this season should be relatively poor when compared to the opportunities they will have after they implemented the majority of their habitat improvement plans.

I too run cams all year, and I can you tell from experience that the long term benefits of the in-season work I have done has far, far outweighed the short term impact they had on my deer’s movement.

 

[White Birch Farm]

I switched to using gypsum over lime a few years ago, I think it can be used by plants a little faster. I'm in a very high ag area and gypsum in bulk can be had pretty reasonable.

Gypsum is not an alternative to Lime. It is generally used instead to alter Ca to Mg ratios. Until the OP knows what his PH and base saturation ratios are, there is no way to know whether the use of gypsum would be warranted.

Presumably though, given his location he will need at least some meaningful applications of either calcitic or dolomitic lime. More than likey the correct application of either will preclude the need for changing Ca/Mg ratios via a secondary application of gypsum.

 

[White Birch Farm]

My question is after I get a soil test done, can I begin to apply lime to the food plot area?

The short answer is no. More than likely you will need several tons of lime per acre to correct your PH. If the fields are not clear just applying that amount of lime is fairly impractical. Even if you can, without an ability to incorporate the lime you are generally limited to applying 2 tons calcium carbonate equivelent an acre at a time. I suspect you will need more than that....Instead, you are better off clearing the land and applying the lime when you have some ability to incorporate it, idealy through some deep method such as plowing or alternatively shallower via disking. Keep in mind the most cost effective means is getting a load of Lime from someone like Baker, which is around 24 tons. Of course, they would need to be able to access the plot. If they can, even if you only need half that amount on your field, it still may be cheaper than alternatives such as bagged pelletized lime.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,

I suspect your experience is much different than what we see in the Northeast. The increase in available browse on the ground can make an immediate impact in deer use on a property in our fall seasons. Also, from the sounds of it, the OP is not working with an established property. As a result, the longer he puts off the most basic work like logging, the longer it will be before he can do any advanced work, which quickly means taking years to have any meaningful effects increasing his population. Finally, the more time that passes before his basic plans are implemented the longer it will before he will have experience with his deer’s reaction to those improvements meaning further delays before he can fine tune his improvemts.

In short, with a new property, I believe a habitat manager is far better off biting the bullet and getting their basic plans implemented sooner rather later even if it means a short term disruption in their hunting. After all, if they are going to be succesful improving their habitat, the hunting opportunities they may give up this season should be relatively poor when compared to the opportunities they will have after they implemented the majority of their habitat improvement plans.

I too run cams all year, and I can you tell from experience that the long term benefits of the in-season work I have done has far, far outweighed the short term impact they had on my deer’s movement.

I had access to a property in the suburbs that was overpopulated and being developed. There was a 6' browse line. The deer were so in need of food that when the dozers fired up, the deer would come running.

How deer react can be very different depending on the local drivers. That is why I didn't make a recommendation as to what the OP should do but simply related my experience. Depending on his conditions, there may or may not be a reason for him to restrict harvest times. My main point is that deer behavior will be changed by the large scale logging operation. How it will change will vary.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[H20fwler]

Gypsum is not an alternative to Lime. It is generally used instead to alter Ca to Mg ratios. Until the OP knows what his PH and base saturation ratios are, there is no way to know whether the use of gypsum would be warranted.

Presumably though, given his location he will need at least some meaningful applications of either calcitic or dolomitic lime. More than likey the correct application of either will preclude the need for changing Ca/Mg ratios via a secondary application of gypsum.

For my situation it most definitely is an alternative to lime. I do not have an issue with my PH and I don't want one that could be caused by the use of lime, my soil is loamy clay and gypsum is the perfect fix for my needs. I do want the calcium along with sulfur along with the other benefits of using it.
Gypsum is about 200 times more soluble than lime, does not create large swings in PH in my soil, helps soften my clay and any compaction I may have while helping my soil retain water letting it sink in, great source of calcium and sulfur for plant nutrition and intake, helps keeps nutrients in my plots , improves acid treats aluminum toxicity, improves overall soil structure helping plant root growth, improves water filtration and that helps surface water runoff and possibility of erosion.
Overall it helps what I am planting for wildlife clovers/chicory/brassicas/fruit&nut trees/conifers/native grasses all take in micro nutrients better and it helps my soil overall without the risk of putting a little to much of it on and throwing something out of whack.

So like I said that is why I switched from messing around with lime to using gypsum personally. By all means a PH test should be run before anyone uses lime or fertilizers on their plots/farms especially any unknown or new ground. I use gypsum for more of a soil maintenance thing every few years on food plots.

 

[Buckly]

Just a couple things to consider. You may be better off financial wise just to have the land logged and then clear the food plots later instead of putting too many restrictions and conditions on the logging contract. It seems very hard these days to even get somebody and enough bids for logging on these smaller properties. I wouldn’t put any restrictions on the time of logging. (deer season). The only condition I would put in is not to be logged when the ground is really wet. Either dry or frozen ground. Do you have a wildlife management plan? I would suggest that instead of a 3 acre plot/orchard that you put in several smaller plots in locations that not only enhance food but, that aid in making the place more huntable. Lastely, in my opinion putting any lime down before stump removal is just wasting time and money. After the plots are cleared there are many things you can plant in them that will grow just fine as your adjusting the ground.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I can vouch for something White Birch Farm said in post #11. Deer moved into the tops the same night the first trees were dropped at our camp. The amount of tracks and browsed twigs was crazy. 2nd day - more logging. 2nd night - even more deer in there eating & bedding. Tops on the ground = deer chow, and they find it immediately.

 

[White Birch Farm]

For my situation it most definitely is an alternative to lime.

The OP is discsussing the use of lime in a plot that he presumes has a low PH. Gipson is not anternative product to lime for that purpose.

 

[Wny Hunter]

Thanx for all the responses. I will discuss with the foresters about allowing access to the land during hunting season and see what their thoughts are about speeding up the process of finishing the project , or at the very least getting a higher bid. From the feedback I’m getting , I think I’ll hold off on applying lime till after it’s opened up and soil test is done

 

[White Birch Farm]

If you havent already done so, at least consider the possibility of apply for some NRCS funding. It could provide some very attractive alternatives, especially for those younger areas dominated by maple.