Lime Question

[yoderjac]

If you havent already done so, at least consider the possibility of apply for some NRCS funding. It could provide some very attractive alternatives, especially for those younger areas dominated by maple.

We used a USDA contract and our logging contract was part of the USDA plan. USDA paid most of the cost of putting in firebreaks, applying herbicide, and conducting the controlled burn. They did not cover anything related to the logging itself, but covered the cost of many of the non-commercial things that benefitted wildlife.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[White Birch Farm]

They have money available for many different practices. I have contracts for everything from forestry mowing invasives to forest stand improvement to conducting seed tree harvests to replanting fields and hedge rows in trees and shrubs.

 

[H20fwler]

The OP is discsussing the use of lime in a plot that he presumes has a low PH. Gipson is not anternative product to lime for that purpose.

You quoted my initial post where I stated what I personally do, I responded.
I agree the OP may not even need lime at all but gypsum is still a benefit regardless.

 

[White Birch Farm]

I agree the OP may not even need lime at all but gypsum is still a benefit regardless.

If gypsum could be beneficial, chances are Lime would be a superior product for him anyways. Not only will lime adress the Ca deficiency that gypsum is used to address, it would also correct the low PH which in the vast majority of cases coexists with low Ca levels, which gypsum can not adress at all. To the extent he is in need of additional sulphur, as many soils now are, there are a multitude of options to adress that without the need for gypsum, including applications of additional sulphur at the time he fertilizes.

 

[White Birch Farm]

You quoted my initial post where I stated what I personally do

Btw...What is the basis upon which you determined that you need to alter your Ca/Mg ratios but not your PH? For example, what is your PH and what are your Ca and Mg saturation ratios?

 

[SD51555]

For my situation it most definitely is an alternative to lime. I do not have an issue with my PH and I don't want one that could be caused by the use of lime, my soil is loamy clay and gypsum is the perfect fix for my needs. I do want the calcium along with sulfur along with the other benefits of using it.
Gypsum is about 200 times more soluble than lime, does not create large swings in PH in my soil, helps soften my clay and any compaction I may have while helping my soil retain water letting it sink in, great source of calcium and sulfur for plant nutrition and intake, helps keeps nutrients in my plots , improves acid treats aluminum toxicity, improves overall soil structure helping plant root growth, improves water filtration and that helps surface water runoff and possibility of erosion.
Overall it helps what I am planting for wildlife clovers/chicory/brassicas/fruit&nut trees/conifers/native grasses all take in micro nutrients better and it helps my soil overall without the risk of putting a little to much of it on and throwing something out of whack.

So like I said that is why I switched from messing around with lime to using gypsum personally. By all means a PH test should be run before anyone uses lime or fertilizers on their plots/farms especially any unknown or new ground. I use gypsum for more of a soil maintenance thing every few years on food plots.

Here's a guy that gets it. Gypsum can be that missing component that ties it all together. I put it on every year. Nothing flipped the switch on clover consumption better than gypsum. I get October-like pressure on my clover all year where I apply it.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

SD51555 - ^^^ What do you mean by gypsum "flipped the switch on clover consumption" ?? The deer ate more clover ?? I know gypsum will help break up clay - I got that info from multiple sources concerning soil health, water drainage, "tilth" & structure of soil, etc.

EDIT :This is a genuine question - not a shot at SD51555. I'm always looking to learn something new. Just wondering what the connection is.

Our deer hammer clover all year until it goes dormant in the late fall / early winter here.

 

[yoderjac]

They have money available for many different practices. I have contracts for everything from forestry mowing invasives to forest stand improvement to conducting seed tree harvests to replanting fields and hedge rows in trees and shrubs.

Yes, they have all kinds of programs and you just need to figure out what fits you. We looked into the conservation practices programs and could not make any work financially, but the EQIP program we used was a huge benefit. Whether they have a program that fits a particular situation just depends, but it is definitely worth looking into. Just having one more free biologist come out and make recommendations was useful to us.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SD51555]

SD51555 - ^^^ What do you mean by gypsum "flipped the switch on clover consumption" ?? The deer ate more clover ?? I know gypsum will help break up clay - I got that info from multiple sources concerning soil health, water drainage, "tilth" & structure of soil, etc.

EDIT :This is a genuine question - not a shot at SD51555. I'm always looking to learn something new. Just wondering what the connection is.

Our deer hammer clover all year until it goes dormant in the late fall / early winter here.

Our property was covered in clover from day one. Deer never showed any signs of eating it. I planted some anyway, and I put down everything, the right lime, P and K, and a nurse crop. I had the nicest clover that never got eaten.

Checked my soil test and realized I had 0 sulfur in my soil. Sulfur is the flavor nutrient. Where I put down gypsum (which is 14-17% sulfate) the deer began eating it immediately and never stopped. Anyone can test this on their clover for a $6 bag of gypsum (40-50lb). Most never will, or even pay the $5 extra to test for sulfur, and they're gonna lose out for it.

 

[White Birch Farm]

Checked my soil test and realized I had 0 sulfur in my soil..

Yes, of course addressing severe nutrient deficies increasing attractiveness. However, suggesting that gypsum is the only way to address a sulphur deficiecy is a red herring. There are many ways to address sulphor deficiencies without gypsum that dont also add substantial amounts of calcium/ reducing magnesium, which may not be needed or wanted.

 

[H20fwler]

Here's a guy that gets it. Gypsum can be that missing component that ties it all together. I put it on every year. Nothing flipped the switch on clover consumption better than gypsum. I get October-like pressure on my clover all year where I apply it.

Exact same thing here made my food plots green up faster and they just look even more lush. Anything that can help the soil and help my plots take in more micro nutrients along with helping get through dryer spells is a win for me. For my soil type it most definitely works.
The first year I put it on I noticed more wildlife activity in my plots and unlike lime there isn’t the risk of throwing my PH that is already good out of whack.
Only experience I have with it is in heavier soil I have no idea how it is with sandier ground. State biologist that I work with recommended it to me about five years ago. I had always used a form of it my lawn that is mostly clay and after a couple years of use I could see the property lines in the grass on both side of my yard by how much greener my lawn is, especially during dry months.
It is very popular here for farm use.

For correcting a PH imbalance lime is definitely the way to go along with the benefit of calcium, for calcium-sulfur and micro nutrient intake gypsum.

 

[SD51555]

Checked my soil test and realized I had 0 sulfur in my soil..

Yes, of course addressing severe nutrient deficies increasing attractiveness. However, suggesting that gypsum is the only way to address a sulphur deficiecy is a red herring. There are many ways to address sulphor deficiencies without gypsum that dont also add substantial amounts of calcium/ reducing magnesium, which may not be needed or wanted.

I’d challenge ya to find a better way. There’s one, but only one.


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[Mortenson]

I'd say elemental sulfur, but I don't think that's right. Probably gets into the revolving door too much.

 

[SD51555]

I'd say elemental sulfur, but I don't think that's right. Probably gets into the revolving door too much.

There are plenty of ways to do it.

Ammonium sulfate: good that it's in sulfate form, bad that it's gonna drop nitrogen on your grasses and broadleaves and compete with your clover.
Elemental sulfur: good that it's only sulfur, but it has to convert to sulfate before it's plant-available. Lots of variance in the rate at which that happens. It's also going to drop your pH over time.
Epsom salt: If you've got high calcium, this is a great way, but good luck finding it in any quantity that is affordable.
K-Mag: Good luck finding it. Fertilizer guys in my region don't even know what it is. It's potassium with magnesium and sulfate. It'd be a miracle for low Mg soils, but again, good luck finding it.

If you have your soil cations in balance, gypsum should be a great way to do it long term. Lots of calcium gets used in the growing process, and it doesn't take much gypsum to get a good sulfate addition each year. It's also a very soil stable form of sulfate. One and done for the year. If your calcium does start to creep over time, I'd just put back some dolomitic lime to correct. You'd probably be due for a little lime anyway.

 

[White Birch Farm]

There are plenty of other options besides Gypsom, several of which are prefered over Gypsom.

....
http://passel.unl.edu/pages/informa...rmationmodule=1130447045&topicorder=6&maxto=7

“Gypsum is an effective sulfur source, but NOT popular as a sulfur fertilizer because of the low sulfur content.”

“Other sulfur sources include fertilizers listed as nitrogen, phosphorus, or potassium fertilizers. Nitrogen-sulfur materials include ammonium sulfate (21-0-0 +24S), ammonium nitrate-sulfate (30-0-0 + 15S), ammonium phosphate-sulfate (13-39-0 +7S), and ammonium phosphate-nitrate (27-12-0+4.5S). Potassium-sulfur fertilizers include potassium sulfate (0-0-50+18S) and potassium magnesium-sulfate (0-0-22+22S). “

 

[SD51555]

There are plenty of other options besides Gypsom, several of which are prefered over Gypsom.

....
http://passel.unl.edu/pages/informa...rmationmodule=1130447045&topicorder=6&maxto=7

“Gypsum is an effective sulfur source, but NOT popular as a sulfur fertilizer because of the low sulfur content.”

“Other sulfur sources include fertilizers listed as nitrogen, phosphorus, or potassium fertilizers. Nitrogen-sulfur materials include ammonium sulfate (21-0-0 +24S), ammonium nitrate-sulfate (30-0-0 + 15S), ammonium phosphate-sulfate (13-39-0 +7S), and ammonium phosphate-nitrate (27-12-0+4.5S). Potassium-sulfur fertilizers include potassium sulfate (0-0-50+18S) and potassium magnesium-sulfate (0-0-22+22S). “

I wouldn't prefer any of those, even if they were cheaper. The last thing I would want to do is dump nitrogen on a legume crop. It may help a little in soybeans, but most of us don't have the weed control options of soybean farmers. One of my biggest focuses in clover management is using up surplus nitrogen produced by the clover to stave off the grass invasion. That's still a work in progress, but it pays to mind it. Your going to end up with a nitrogen user in a bed of nitrogen producers. I would not speed that up by dumping any additional nitrogen on it.

 

[White Birch Farm]

If you never rotatate your forages, and you refuse to use Nitrogen, Phoshoporous or Potatsium fertilizers all of which are available with sulfur then there is nothing more to say.

 

[White Birch Farm]

“Add Ammonium Sulphate to your perenial clover plots”

Notice, John didnt say “Add Gypsum”.

 

[SD51555]

“Add Ammonium Sulphate to your perenial clover plots”

Notice, John didnt say “Add Gypsum”.

Well that's just the cold hard truth then isn't it. Let's whip 'em out and measure clover pics.

Never seen a cleth treatment.


June browse pressure.


Near complete shade. Solid clover. Team gypsum.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I don't mind doing a soil test for sulfur. But just for the hell of it, I'll try a bag of gyp. on part of a perennial clover plot this spring. I'll monitor how that area compares to the rest of the plot, including deer use. Our soil is a clayish loam - not solid, heavy clay.

Thanks for the info guys ! Always learning.