Lime Question

[SD51555]

I don't mind doing a soil test for sulfur. But just for the hell of it, I'll try a bag of gyp. on part of a perennial clover plot this spring. I'll monitor how that area compares to the rest of the plot, including deer use. Our soil is a clayish loam - not solid, heavy clay.

Thanks for the info guys ! Always learning.

If you get a 40-50lb bag, mark off and treat a spot about 5400 square feet (1/8th acre) (or less), and make sure you have a hard line where you stop. I will mail you $6 if you don't see a difference.

 

[TreeDaddy]

I don't mind doing a soil test for sulfur. But just for the hell of it, I'll try a bag of gyp. on part of a perennial clover plot this spring. I'll monitor how that area compares to the rest of the plot, including deer use. Our soil is a clayish loam - not solid, heavy clay.

Thanks for the info guys ! Always learning.

Bout to google up gypsom now............

bill

 

[White Birch Farm]

I don't mind doing a soil test for sulfur. But just for the hell of it, I'll try a bag of gyp. on part of a perennial clover.

If you want to do a real test, add gypsum in one section and in another use AMS and also be sure to fertilize with potasium in the fall and to frost/oversees any thin spots in the spring, which are the basic steps that be should be taken for maintaining perenial clover plots. I can assure you, the well maintained/AMS side of the plot will far exceed the production of the gypsum only plot.

Here is a good refresher on perenial plot maintaince.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gr...g-Your-Food-Plot-Clovers-and-Perennials?_amp_

 

[White Birch Farm]

[/QUOTE]

Let's whip 'em out and measure clover pics.

I can assure you, comparing my clover plantings to yours is a pointless venture.

 

[SD51555]

I can assure you, comparing my clover plantings to yours is a pointless venture. [/QUOTE]
Can't be too pointless. I think managing grass encroachment without herbicide and preventing bald spots is a noteworthy goal. A maintained plot shouldn't need to be reseeded or have K added each year. It's not like it's getting baled up and hauled away. I haven't reseeded or added anything other than gypsum to my clover since it was planted, and some of it is pushing 6 years old this year and doesn't have a bald spot.

The big dividend in clover is that if well fed and managed, you don't need cleth and a continual addition of seed to try to keep ahead of the grass you keep dumping nitrogen on.

That link didn't go to anything either.

It's all for fun guy. Used to be this is how research became science. An idea would be posed, and all would try to shoot holes through it. If it stood up to it, it became science. Everybody wins with rich debate.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Just for clarity - we don't dump nitrogen on clover. No need. We fertilize with 0-20-20 usually, or if that's not available, 5-20-20 or 5-10-10. Sometimes the "0" stuff isn't in stock for whatever reason.

White Birch - I'll try the AMS as well. Gonna do some soil tests in the perennial clover just for the hell of it & see what they show. $$$ well spent on the tests.

 

[White Birch Farm]

Used to be this is how research became science. An idea would be posed, and all would try to shoot holes through it.

I think the thing you are missing is that you are posting random facts, and information about your personal biases and not realizing that they have little to do with already proven scientific facts about optimizing clover plot growth (honestly, it seems that your whole point of view is that are you not interested in optimizing your plots, which i fine, yet you are writting as if your advice is intended to help people do just that (optimize), which is not as it misleads the very people you claim to be educating). If you want to have a fact based discussion about supplementing soil with Sulphur that starts with a discussion of PH, base saturation levels and posting actual soil samples. Something I have asked the gypsum proponents to do and to discuss, and something not one has done.

 

[SD51555]

I think the thing you are missing is that you are posting random facts, and information about your personal biases and not realizing that they have little to do with already proven scientific facts about optimizing clover plot growth (honestly, it seems that your whole point of view is that are you not interested in optimizing your plots, which i fine, yet you are writting as if your advice is intended to help people do just that (optimize), which is not as it misleads the very people you claim to be educating). If you want to have a fact based discussion about supplementing soil with Sulphur that starts with a discussion of PH, base saturation levels and posting actual soil samples. Something I have asked the gypsum proponents to do and to discuss, and something not one has done.

K

I don't know what's been random about my facts. I thought it was pretty on point. My clover is clean without herbicide, doesn't need annual shots of K and nitrogen, and doesn't need to have seed added each year. I don't know what else I can provide you with from here. And whose science are you citing? Some dork hustling food plot seed? That's not exactly university research.

Here's my soil test on my clover pre-gypsum from this spring. You can see my pH, base saturation, need for sulfur, and no presence of an oversupply of calcium. So now you have my latest soil test, what else do you want to know?

The larger question here is this. Why are you so hostile towards gypsum? I haven't even heard of half the fertilizers you posted, and can't imagine what they cost vs gypsum or how hard they are for the average guy to source.

 

[H20fwler]

Gypsum is NOT for balancing PH, the calcium and sulfur come along with a lot of other good things that gypsum can do for the soil (I listed many earlier) and that helps any plant that feeds from it.
Many people (not all) especially folks messing with small plots over nitrogen then over lime and load their soil up and actually ending up doing the exact opposite of what they wanted to do in the first place and plots are thin or don't grow the way they expected. With gypsum it is almost fool proof and would be extremely hard to ever over apply it. I myself would much rather after getting my dirt where it needed to be try and use the natural elements that are there for the plant life finding a good balance and a more economical solution than the cycle of fertilizer lime all the time. For me here gypsum has filled that niche for now...I only put it on every couple years for soil maintenance now.

Is gypsum a magic bullet for plotting...no, but it could be for some. It is way cheaper than constantly buying fertilizers and lime for me because it helps plants use what is there better and I don't need to fertilize near as much if at all.

 

[H20fwler]

Found this on the web and thought I would share for anyone that would like to learn more about the use of gypsum, it is very thorough has a lot of external links and facts and should answer any questions anyone has about it.

https://www.usagypsum.com/gypsum-pr...bR7yInwnaBW0Ctsv9famONjppwLFUohIaAoYaEALw_wcB

 

[TreeDaddy]

.......not sure you fellas wanna anger SD51555......

..........check his avatar


bill

 

[White Birch Farm]

Some dork hustling food plot seed?...

...I haven't even heard of half the fertilizers you posted.

The facts that the guy you are a calling a dork has more knowledge about this subject than you could imagine, and that you don’t even know the available methods by which to supplement Sulphur in a food plot, but are trying to lecture people about doing so, pretty much says all that needs to be said.

P.S. both of your plots identified in the post above would benefit from lime if you are intent on raising your calcium levels.

 

[H20fwler]

No one is lecturing anyone, unless it is you being anti gypsum for some reason. How would you know what is "best" for me on my farm? When I know what has worked and is working. And you are wrong in saying that gypsum is not a good source of calcium...wrong.

To me you come off like someone who is in the fertilizer/lime bussiness that derives some part or all of their income from selling lime and and fertilizer and are somehow threatened by any alternative PROVEN methods that don't aline with your way of thinking. To totaly just discredit the benifits that can be obtained by doing something a different way that works doesn't even make any sense.

 

[White Birch Farm]

No one is lecturing anyone, unless it is you being anti gypsum for some reason. How would you know what is "best" for me on my farm? When I know what has worked and is working. And you are wrong in saying that gypsum is not a good source of calcium...wrong..

Your post makes it very clear that you completely lost sight of the subject matter. This post is not, and never was about you, your farm or anyone being anti-anything.

This thread is about a man in NY who thinks he has a low PH and wants to lime it. You responded implying that gypsum was a practical alternative for his needs. As was stated at the start of this thread. Gypsum is in no way a useful product for raising PH.

Then, the thread derailed from there as you and SD made a series of statements that either had no basis in fact (implying an agronomist with decades of experience was unknowledgable about sulphur) or were unsupported by commonly accept fact (implying that lime and sulphur are inferior products to gypsum for a soil with a PH below 6.5, an Mg base saturation level below 15% and a Ca base saturation below 75%, when the owner is specifically trying to raise the level of available Ca.)

Quite simply, it is about shedding light on the facts....if you are anti-facts, then that may explain why you are trying to label the facts as anti-gysum.

In summary, unless you have sodic soils, a PH above 7, or a plant based need to maintain PH below 7 while increasing Ca (ex. blueberry plants) there is little reason to advocate Gypsum blindly over lime for Ca purposes. Additionally, if Sulphur supplements are required there are numerous readily avialable sources of it precluding the need to be beholden to the application of gypsum when Lime is a more desirable source of calcium.

 

[White Birch Farm]

https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Ca_Basics.htm

“Gypsum is recommended for two primary purposes. They are:

1.)To remove excess sodium (Na)
2). To build soil calcium (Ca) levels when a pH change is not desired.”
....

Just so you don’t have to take my word for it.

(And, highlight what should be obvious, in the context of the article when they say “a PH change is not desired”, they are discussing the desirability from a scientific perspective not a “because I want it that way regardless of facts” perspective.

 

[White Birch Farm]

To me you come off like someone who is in the fertilizer/lime bussiness that derives some part or all of their income from selling lime and and fertilizer and are somehow threatened by any alternative PROVEN methods that don't aline with your way of thinking. To totaly just discredit the benifits that can be obtained by doing something a different way that works doesn't even make any sense.

Actually, to repeatedly make 100% completely basis statements on the internet, as you have repeatedly done (I find the fact that you somehow concluded that I must be in the lime/fertilzer business ridiculously funny. That is very liberal conspiracy theorist of you! Lol), because you are baised against the facts being presented to by an observer who is trying to prevent the spread on misinformation on a website that is intented specifically to help educate its members is what makes no sense at all.

(For anyone who is interested in reality, my input is based on the fact that I have applied more calcium and sulphur on my own heavy, often wet, silt loam soils in most recent years than most food plotters will in their entire lifetime (ex. far in excess of 100,000 lbs of Ca.)

 

[SD51555]

The facts that the guy you are a calling a dork has more knowledge about this subject than you could imagine, and that you don’t even know the available methods by which to supplement Sulphur in a food plot, but are trying to lecture people about doing so, pretty much says all that needs to be said.

P.S. both of your plots identified in the post above would benefit from lime if you are intent on raising your calcium levels.

Wait a minute now. You still haven't sited any credentials for said dork. Now you're just telling us he's super duper smart. The guys I posted from my youtube video are world renowned university trained agronomists that also farm and continue researching every single year.

Just because some of the products you posted have sulfur in them, does not make them best products for adding sulfur. You didn't answer my question about how much they cost or where the average guy can find them.

Your snip saying there are only two uses for gypsum is #Fake News. Here's the rest of it.



Here's the truth from THE Ohio State University, page 8, second column, top of page.
https://fabe.osu.edu/sites/fabe/files/imce/files/Soybean/Gypsum Bulletin.pdf

PROVED

I know I need lime. I hadn't applied any since the beginning. Probably get a little shot of dolomitic pell lime on this year to pave the way for...

...wait for it...

...more gypsum.

I yield the remainder of my time in leiu of any statements of absolute certainty about you, needed to bail me out of further rebuttals.

 

[H20fwler]

https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Ca_Basics.htm

“Gypsum is recommended for two primary purposes. They are:

1.)To remove excess sodium (Na)
2). To build soil calcium (Ca) levels when a pH change is not desired.”
....

Just so you don’t have to take my word for it.

(And, highlight what should be obvious, in the context of the article when they say “a PH change is not desired”, they are discussing the desirability from a scientific perspective not a “because I want it that way regardless of facts” perspective.

That is awesome! You pull two things from dozens and dozens of FACTS in the link I provided that you think somehow substantiate your rant when the whole link contradicts a lot of the things you think you know.

Please excuse me I thought the OP was asking what kind of things he could do now early to start amending his soil and getting nutrients ready for future food plots.....and it still looks like that to me.

When did I say gypsum was ever a good way to change PH? Oh that’s right I didn’t , I said it is a good way to apply calcium....because it is,along with a lot of other positive benefits. You have been the only one crowing about PH.

The liberal thing is just funny, you seem to be the one triggered by anyone saying “gypsum”. If being liberal is being open minded OK then I’m liberal, I’m always ready to learn something new. That you think your opinion on the topic is the only one that matters because you have used a bunch fertilizer and lime is nice...maybe your not the only one, maybe I have to and farmed a couple thousand acres for thirty plus years.

You need to step back and take a few breaths.

 

[SD51555]

Love a good discussion!

 

[White Birch Farm]

Your snip saying there are only two uses for gypsum is #Fake News.

Actually the “Fake News” is you misqouting the direct qoute I posted and then claiming it was “Fake News”.