Let him go so he can grow…

Just to add a different perspective, we often can get too focused on antler size. As I said in an early post, from a hunting perspective, fooling the senses of a mature deer, especially with archery equipment, is really quite the accomplishment, regardless of his antler size. To that end, I've added a jawbone display to any mounts I've done in recent years.

Also, from a QDM perspective, antler size is not my goal, it is a measure of progress. My objective from this perspective is to improve, to the extent possible, and maintain, a high quality deer herd. That means keeping the herd balanced in age class, sex ratio, and with the habitat. Antler size and body weights are simply metrics to measure progress toward that objective.

From a recreational perspective, it is important to give hunters an opportunity to harvest bucks. When hunters are required to pass nice quality bucks that are mature but not "mature enough", hunter interest and participation, in general, declines. This can make it more difficult to manage the herd and can also play into hunter attrition. To that end, I like the idea of setting buck harvest goals based on the current herd composition. Targeting the top 10% age class make be targeting a different age class in one area than another. While Dr. Harper's work suggests that poorer quality soils can produce large antlered bucks, it does not support them in the same density as highly fertile ground.

Also, consider that the scale of land controlled requires sufficient scale for trigger restraint to have the desired impact. Again, hunters passing decent bucks contributes to dissatisfaction without favorably impacting age structure when that buck class is being harvested on adjoining ground. Another reason the top 10% approach works well.

Finally, and perhaps the most important, is introducing new hunters to the sport. All of us have gone through those "stages" of hunting from shooting the gun, to harvesting something, to harvesting many, to harvesting biggest, to just enjoying the experience with or without harvest, to giving back to the next generation, or are somewhere on that journey. Consider what impact antler restrictions have on newer hunters in the earlier stages of development.

Antlers are really cool things and great eye candy, but we should not get too wrapped up in them.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Just to add a different perspective, we often can get too focused on antler size. As I said in an early post, from a hunting perspective, fooling the senses of a mature deer, especially with archery equipment, is really quite the accomplishment, regardless of his antler size. To that end, I've added a jawbone display to any mounts I've done in recent years.

Also, from a QDM perspective, antler size is not my goal, it is a measure of progress. My objective from this perspective is to improve, to the extent possible, and maintain, a high quality deer herd. That means keeping the herd balanced in age class, sex ratio, and with the habitat. Antler size and body weights are simply metrics to measure progress toward that objective.

From a recreational perspective, it is important to give hunters an opportunity to harvest bucks. When hunters are required to pass nice quality bucks that are mature but not "mature enough", hunter interest and participation, in general, declines. This can make it more difficult to manage the herd and can also play into hunter attrition. To that end, I like the idea of setting buck harvest goals based on the current herd composition. Targeting the top 10% age class make be targeting a different age class in one area than another. While Dr. Harper's work suggests that poorer quality soils can produce large antlered bucks, it does not support them in the same density as highly fertile ground.

Also, consider that the scale of land controlled requires sufficient scale for trigger restraint to have the desired impact. Again, hunters passing decent bucks contributes to dissatisfaction without favorably impacting age structure when that buck class is being harvested on adjoining ground. Another reason the top 10% approach works well.

Finally, and perhaps the most important, is introducing new hunters to the sport. All of us have gone through those "stages" of hunting from shooting the gun, to harvesting something, to harvesting many, to harvesting biggest, to just enjoying the experience with or without harvest, to giving back to the next generation, or are somewhere on that journey. Consider what impact antler restrictions have on newer hunters in the earlier stages of development.

Antlers are really cool things and great eye candy, but we should not get too wrapped up in them.

Thanks,

Jack
I agree 100 percent. A 5 year old deer with a 100” rack went through some difficult experiences to get that old. These old, but inferior antlered bucks can be a real challenge. Our hit list includes as many “cull” type bucks - I know, many dont like the use of the word cull - because we dont have enough 150” bucks to go around. Folks I hunt with like to kill a deer and they like to eat deer meat. We dont kill many does because of extremely low fawn recruitment and the neighbors kill more than their fair share - so we kill 100”, 5 yr old bucks when we get the chance.
 
Serious question for the jawbone guys. If you had a pretty special buck running your woods, a 5 yr old with an above average rack for your area, and he walked by you with a whole antler busted off, would still shoot him for the venison and the jawbone? I personally would not, but there is no right or wrong answer.
 
Serious question for the jawbone guys. If you had a pretty special buck running your woods, a 5 yr old with an above average rack for your area, and he walked by you with a whole antler busted off, would still shoot him for the venison and the jawbone? I personally would not, but there is no right or wrong answer.
No way. I hunt for antlers and don’t apologize. Everything I do on my property and with my management philosophy is to increase antler size naturally, not animal husbandry like feeding supplements, etc. A larger antlered free ranging buck is the pinnacle of North American wildlife. Sure I would love to wait until they are 6.5, 7.5 but realistically if they have met my personal antler requirements based on what is attainable for my area, they are on my list. Additionally the idea of judging a deers age on the hoof is noble but generally wrong. We can show a pic of a known aged deer on here and probably get ages from 2.5 to 6.5! It’s just too hard unless you have history, especially guessing after 2.5 to about 5.5. Good luck on that in the field.
 
I agree 100 percent. A 5 year old deer with a 100” rack went through some difficult experiences to get that old. These old, but inferior antlered bucks can be a real challenge. Our hit list includes as many “cull” type bucks - I know, many dont like the use of the word cull - because we dont have enough 150” bucks to go around. Folks I hunt with like to kill a deer and they like to eat deer meat. We dont kill many does because of extremely low fawn recruitment and the neighbors kill more than their fair share - so we kill 100”, 5 yr old bucks when we get the chance.
You're right "culling" is a loaded word. Many use it for an excuse to shoot a young buck which is foolish. Nothing wrong with shooting a young buck if you want, but don't deceive yourself that it is in come way improving the herd genetics. I would say that if a 5 year old buck, regardless of antler size, is in your to 10% it is very reasonable to shoot it. The only possible case for "culling" would be in a highly overpopulated area where food is highly limited. Even then, you are not affecting the genetics, simply removing one mouth from the current cohort.

Serious question for the jawbone guys. If you had a pretty special buck running your woods, a 5 yr old with an above average rack for your area, and he walked by you with a whole antler busted off, would still shoot him for the venison and the jawbone? I personally would not, but there is no right or wrong answer.

If 5 year old deer were in our top 10% age class, regardless of antlers, I'd shoot it if I wanted to. Especially with a bow. If the 5 year old deer was not in our target age class, I would not shoot it.

THanks,

Jack
 
Yoder, if you are personally targeting an age class for the health of your herd, and a 180" typical who called your farm "home" a lot of the time, came within range but he had shed his antlers already, would you shoot him?

I think you actually nailed it when you said "if I wanted to." It should be about what we want, and a lot of us want a nice rack, but up above you stated they're eye candy and to not get wrapped up in them. Would you let a brand new youth hunter shoot the shed out 180"? Would seem rather silly to me, but different strokes!
 
Yoder, if you are personally targeting an age class for the health of your herd, and a 180" typical who called your farm "home" a lot of the time, came within range but he had shed his antlers already, would you shoot him?

I think you actually nailed it when you said "if I wanted to." It should be about what we want, and a lot of us want a nice rack, but up above you stated they're eye candy and to not get wrapped up in them. Would you let a brand new youth hunter shoot the shed out 180"? Would seem rather silly to me, but different strokes!

Well, the second question is easy for me. We let novice hunters shoot any deer on our property. The value of introducing the next generation to hunting is much greater to me than the value of any rack or deer.

We each have our own objectives and priorities and usually more than one that compete with each other. In my previous post, I intentionally broke it out by different perspectives. Some, like Howaboutthemdawgs, have a different objective which is to shoot trophy bucks. Where "trophy" is equal to big antlers. There is nothing wrong with that. That is what is commonly called TDM or trophy deer management. It is just not important to me, and when most folks think about it, it is more of an "it would be nice to shoot..." but it is not the end all and be all for them.

In answer to your first question, "it depends". With a bow, I would likely shoot him. With a firearm, I'd probably pass unless I was quite hard up for venison. In general, most of my venison comes from doe harvests. We have liberal limits on does and we need to keep our population in check. Why would I pass? Shooting that deer would be less of a trophy with a firearm than at 20 yards with a bow. I'd probably prefer to take the chance he would present an opportunity in the future with a bow.

That is all just personal preference.

Thansk,

Jack
 
Yoder, if you are personally targeting an age class for the health of your herd, and a 180" typical who called your farm "home" a lot of the time, came within range but he had shed his antlers already, would you shoot him?

I think you actually nailed it when you said "if I wanted to." It should be about what we want, and a lot of us want a nice rack, but up above you stated they're eye candy and to not get wrapped up in them. Would you let a brand new youth hunter shoot the shed out 180"? Would seem rather silly to me, but different strokes!
In our case, we would not shoot a shed out, mature deer that had 180” antlers - but we would shoot a shed out, mature deer that had 100” antlers. We wouldnt let out 8 year old grand daughters shoot a shed out 180” deer. There are plenty of other deer in the woods to shoot. A 180” deer in our area is a once in several lifetimes deer. And not just a 180 - we would t shoot a shed out 120” deer. That type deer is just too uncommon at our place. When you have 60 deer on your place - and three quality antlered bucks - we would choose something else
 
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Something to consider. On page 1 of this thread some guys were talking about the biggest jump being from 3.5 to 4.5 and they are absolutely correct.

How did they come up with this?
 
Serious question for the jawbone guys. If you had a pretty special buck running your woods, a 5 yr old with an above average rack for your area, and he walked by you with a whole antler busted off, would still shoot him for the venison and the jawbone? I personally would not, but there is no right or wrong answer.

I would shoot that deer without hesitation.

Where I hunt, I don't have the luxury of letting a mature buck walk. Chances are that will be my one opportunity for a rather long time. If I hunted somewhere that offered me the luxury of passing on mature bucks, I might change my tune, but probably not. I might have weird tastebuds, or maybe I'm extra careful with processing bucks, but I think the best meat comes from big mature bucks shot before the rut.
 
Cleared for takeoff!

Nobody here is setting a record. And never would if left to grow older.

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Yes, I have a 4 pt 4/5 yr old deer. If the deer doesnt have reasonable antlers at 3.5 - 100” plus - I have never seen a sub standard buck at 3.5 become a great buck anytime later in life. But, you have to know your deer and be realistic about your expectations. I killed a 6 yr old ten point last year that was an 11 pt 5 yr old. Our deer often start down hill after 5 - I know a lot of deer on better ground keep improving on up to 7 or 8 yrs old. Not on my ground
 
It says right in there, from research from the MSU deerlab

It says where but not how. What was their methodology. Is there and abstract on their website?
 
It says where but not how. What was their methodology. Is there and abstract on their website?
I'm not sure. You're welcome to check it out.

 
Saw this today and thought it was relevant to the conversation regarding mature bucks and their antlers growth if given additional year(s) to grow.
The research discussed in this study was taken on a ranch adjacent to mine. We also have 24 years of observing the antler growth/age correlation. One thing this study doesn't acknowledge is the varying rates of growth in different sub species. It is well documented that the northern strain of whitetail reach peak antler growth earlier than the southern strain or South Texas strain used in this study. It is why Deer breeders like to include a % of northern blood in breeding because the deer get big faster.

Nonetheless it is absolutely true that some ( most ) bucks continue to get bigger past 5... even a lot bigger. We followed a buck from 4 to 10 very closely . At 4 he was in the 190's. From there he was up and down depending on climatic conditions as much as 20". I shot him at 10 yrs old scoring 205 with double drops { was the first time he ever had double drops}. Just last year we took a 210" 6 yr old that was a 155" 8 pt the year before. From both my farm in La as well as the ranch in the brush country what I see is that growth is somewhat linear till 4. Then it can vacillate up and down from then on based on countless factors being somewhat unpredictable. But the very best bucks tend to get bigger past 5. Overall we don't chase top end bucks anywhere till they or 7 or 8 which 'tends' to be the peak...usually.

My takeaway from all this for those interested in top end deer is if a buck rings your bell, take him. One buck doesn't make or break a deer herd. And there are countless things that could happen to a buck every year. However its always cool to swing for the fence and see how a buck progresses as they mature into later life.
 
The research discussed in this study was taken on a ranch adjacent to mine. We also have 24 years of observing the antler growth/age correlation. One thing this study doesn't acknowledge is the varying rates of growth in different sub species. It is well documented that the northern strain of whitetail reach peak antler growth earlier than the southern strain or South Texas strain used in this study. It is why Deer breeders like to include a % of northern blood in breeding because the deer get big faster.

Nonetheless it is absolutely true that some ( most ) bucks continue to get bigger past 5... even a lot bigger. We followed a buck from 4 to 10 very closely . At 4 he was in the 190's. From there he was up and down depending on climatic conditions as much as 20". I shot him at 10 yrs old scoring 205 with double drops { was the first time he ever had double drops}. Just last year we took a 210" 6 yr old that was a 155" 8 pt the year before. From both my farm in La as well as the ranch in the brush country what I see is that growth is somewhat linear till 4. Then it can vacillate up and down from then on based on countless factors being somewhat unpredictable. But the very best bucks tend to get bigger past 5. Overall we don't chase top end bucks anywhere till they or 7 or 8 which 'tends' to be the peak...usually.

My takeaway from all this for those interested in top end deer is if a buck rings your bell, take him. One buck doesn't make or break a deer herd. And there are countless things that could happen to a buck every year. However its always cool to swing for the fence and see how a buck progresses as they mature into later life.
Certainly all caveats apply and this is just one study. Most believe for wild ranging deer that maturity is 4.5 years old but that certainly doesn't mean it will carry the most inches at 4.5.
 
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