How Would You Approach This Clover Field?

[MilkweedManiac]

Hey Folks,

I'd love some feedback on this as I am new to establishing clover and would love some advice. Here are the details:

This is a one acre clover plot I did throw n' mow to last fall with some Ladino and Cereal Rye mixed in. It was a cattle pasture previously so there are lots of unedibles left trying to keep the party going. The clover came in wonderfully and I terminated the rye about a month ago. Now the fun part begins. I have oxalis, daisy, black-eyed susan, and ironweed identified so far. Obviously, the ironweed has not bloomed yet, but the others have. I'm not sure if their seeds are fully developed yet or if mowing again would prevent this. I'm in a bit of a drought right now, so I probably shouldn't mow until it rains (should be next week).

I have wondered how often I should be mowing to suppress weeds? I just don't want to stress out the clover during this dry period.

Another thought is Butyrac 200, which I am willing to try if others think this is a good plan. This clover is in my apple orchard and will be used for helping with pollination and maybe some light bee keeping.

Any help appreciated.

 

[Native Hunter]

The Ironweed is a perennial, so it will come back from roots each year. Depending on how much of it you have, you might just take a hand sprayer and spot spray it. The others you mention are not that competitive and should not be a big threat to your clover if you do occasional mowing. Black Eyed Susan is a plant I see heavily browsed in the spring before it flowers. Broadleaf plants that get tall are generally easy to control with mowing. They can even be a plus in the summer by providing shade. Just mow them before the go to seed or if they are shading too much.

Your primary, long term threat with clover plots is going to be perennial grasses emerging. Spraying with a grass selective herbicide can help and extend the life of the plot. I personally would not worry about those weeds you have mentioned, and would keep them in check with some strategically timed mowing and spot spraying.

 

[yoderjac]

Given it was a pasture that had noxious weeds, I may have focused on weeds for a year or so before planting perennial clover. You'll have to make a judgement call on the weeds. It may be less expensive to start over than to try to deal with the weeds and keep the clover going. I just throw this out there as an alternate.

Mowing will control many annual broadleaf weeds but does nothing for grasses or perennial weeds. Given where you are, that is where I would start. I would mow based on your weeds and not worry too much about what happens to the clover. I would consider the clover as part of a weed suppression program as a primary and deer food secondarily. Mowing height is more important than mowing frequency. I would not mow lower than 8". I'd drive frequency based on the weeds. For example, if you mow some annual weeds early in the year, they will just learn to grow short and develop viable seeds. If you let weeds like this grow and mow just before they go to seed later in the year, they have expended all their energy and don't have enough time to grow back enough to produce seed.

This fall, I'd just accept it as is for the season. I'd start over next spring. I would hit the field hard with whatever herbicides you need to deal with your noxious weeds when they are young and susceptible. I would then plant a throw and mow crop of buckwheat or mix it with sunn hemp. These are pretty quick to germinate and should compete well with weeds. Reevaluate the field for weeds next fall. That gives you another chance to use broader spectrum herbicides before your fall plant. If you think you can control the noxious wees well by then, you can repeat your WR/Clover plant next fall. If you think it needs more work, consider fall annuals like WR again and skip the clover. Let the WR grow in the spring to smother and then apply herbicides and buckwheat late.

What it really boils down to is this. Is the effort and cost of trying to preserve the existing clover for the next 5 years with selective herbicides more than starting over?

One more option that I mentioned on another thread. Ladino is fairly short. Using a wicking bar allows for greater application rates of herbicide on weeds taller than the clover using herbicides that would otherwise kill clover. That might be an alternative that preserves your existing clover.

Just trying to provide options for you to consider...

 

[MilkweedManiac]

Thank you to both of these replies! Incredibly informative.

This is kind of a long-term project, so I think I'll let the clover ride for now. The wicking bar idea is awesome and I will look into that. Spot spraying, as suggested is also a viable option for the ironweed, as I do not have nearly as much of that as I do the Black E Susan and Daisies.

If I may ask, how do I know when a flower has viable seeds in it? They are so tiny I'm not sure when they are in the dough stage and when they are able to support new plants.

 

[yoderjac]

Thank you to both of these replies! Incredibly informative.

This is kind of a long-term project, so I think I'll let the clover ride for now. The wicking bar idea is awesome and I will look into that. Spot spraying, as suggested is also a viable option for the ironweed, as I do not have nearly as much of that as I do the Black E Susan and Daisies.

If I may ask, how do I know when a flower has viable seeds in it? They are so tiny I'm not sure when they are in the dough stage and when they are able to support new plants.

I think it really depends on the particular plant. I wish I was more knowledgeable about specific weeds. Really, the only ones I know well are the weeds that have been a problem for me. The subject is so broad, it is hard to get a handle on unless it is your profession. My approach has been to grab problematic weeds and take them to the coop. They can typically identify them for me and make initial management recommendations. I then start googling around on the specific weed for other management ideas.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SD51555]

As long as you don't have a single weed running wild and choking everything out, I wouldn't worry about it. Those non-clover broadleafs are doing a job. Their presence, while not magazine worthy, can serve a few unique benefits. They can tell you what soil problems you may have (i.e. dandelions = compaction / cocklebur = calcium deficiency / sedge = wet / fern = acidic), and most biennials and perennials go deep and bring up minerals that clover can't reach.

Nearly all the broadleaves in my clover are unintended and they are welcomed. Most are flowers and just make appearances here and there. The bees love 'em. The deer eat most of them to some degree at some point, even curly dock. As long as they aren't marching across your plot and choking it out, they'll make it more resilient. I would get some wheat or rye going in there this fall. The grass is coming, you might as well pick which one it's gonna be.

 

[Bill]

I agree with Everyone here. But if you want a get out of jail free card (for now because I don’t have long term experience with it and it’s a quick fix). Imox herbicide has really impressed me. It’s expensive you’re looking at $100 for two treatments in your situation. But it bought me at least a year or more. I had some crappy looking clover fields that might be magazine ready next spring.

Long term it’s obviously not the answer to nature. Can’t fight nature forever but it’s fun trying..

 

[MilkweedManiac]

As long as you don't have a single weed running wild and choking everything out, I wouldn't worry about it. Those non-clover broadleafs are doing a job. Their presence, while not magazine worthy, can serve a few unique benefits. They can tell you what soil problems you may have (i.e. dandelions = compaction / cocklebur = calcium deficiency / sedge = wet / fern = acidic), and most biennials and perennials go deep and bring up minerals that clover can't reach.

Nearly all the broadleaves in my clover are unintended and they are welcomed. Most are flowers and just make appearances here and there. The bees love 'em. The deer eat most of them to some degree at some point, even curly dock. As long as they aren't marching across your plot and choking it out, they'll make it more resilient. I would get some wheat or rye going in there this fall. The grass is coming, you might as well pick which one it's gonna be.

Great perspective. I haven't seen any browse on the oxalis, black-eyed susan, or daisies yet, but I do agree that their heights is providing needed shade for the clover during this dry spell. I will probably hit with some rye this fall!

 

[MilkweedManiac]

I agree with Everyone here. But if you want a get out of jail free card (for now because I don’t have long term experience with it and it’s a quick fix). Imox herbicide has really impressed me. It’s expensive you’re looking at $100 for two treatments in your situation. But it bought me at least a year or more. I had some crappy looking clover fields that might be magazine ready next spring.

Long term it’s obviously not the answer to nature. Can’t fight nature forever but it’s fun trying..

Thank you for the recommendation. I will file that away for future usage as this particular project is a slow one. I have planted norway spruce around 3 acres or so and planted about 20 fruit/nut tree varieties. So it will be a few years before I'm ready to try the "magazine" look. :)

 

[yoderjac]

As long as you don't have a single weed running wild and choking everything out, I wouldn't worry about it. Those non-clover broadleafs are doing a job. Their presence, while not magazine worthy, can serve a few unique benefits. They can tell you what soil problems you may have (i.e. dandelions = compaction / cocklebur = calcium deficiency / sedge = wet / fern = acidic), and most biennials and perennials go deep and bring up minerals that clover can't reach.

Nearly all the broadleaves in my clover are unintended and they are welcomed. Most are flowers and just make appearances here and there. The bees love 'em. The deer eat most of them to some degree at some point, even curly dock. As long as they aren't marching across your plot and choking it out, they'll make it more resilient. I would get some wheat or rye going in there this fall. The grass is coming, you might as well pick which one it's gonna be.

This is where knowing your weeds comes in. I've evolved toward great weed tolerance in clover. An normally my recommendation would be the same as this one. I'm probably making some assumptions based on the original post, but I think an active pasture may be different. Cattle will eat most everything a deer will eat, and a lot more stuff. I'm presuming that over the years, the cattle have have changed the normal distribution of broadleaf weeds and those that are left have little if any wildlife value.

I'm thinking that the seed bank is full of noxious weed seeds and that is one reason I like the idea of throw and mow where we are not bringing weed seed up to the germination layer. My thought is that it could be hard to get rid of some of the noxious weeds with herbicides that won't kill clover. I think by starting with as clean of a field as possible, planting clover with best practices will help bring things back to a more normal distribution of broadleaf weeds.

This may or may not be necessary, but it worth considering. Only the OP knows enough about his field to make a good decision about this.

However, if the weeds are close to a normal distribution for the area or when the OP gets the field to that point, I could not agree more with this SDS weed tolerance recommendation!

The "magazine look" is for selling product and making hunters feel like they are accomplishing something, not efficiently managing for deer and other wildlife.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

Thank you to both of these replies! Incredibly informative.

This is kind of a long-term project, so I think I'll let the clover ride for now. The wicking bar idea is awesome and I will look into that. Spot spraying, as suggested is also a viable option for the ironweed, as I do not have nearly as much of that as I do the Black E Susan and Daisies.

If I may ask, how do I know when a flower has viable seeds in it? They are so tiny I'm not sure when they are in the dough stage and when they are able to support new plants.

If you don’t have specific information on a plant, the best approach is to mow a little early rather than waiting too late. With most plants, if you mow just after the seed head first starts developing, that’s early enough and you’ve taken care of it. Also, tall broadleaf plants have a hard time rebounding if you let them get that close to setting seed and then mow them fairly low.

As I mentioned earlier, perennial plants will come back from the roots and can be a problem. I will also mention that most soil seed banks continue to hold unwanted plant seed and can be hard to exhaust. I’ve personally seen plants used for cover crops come back out of the seed bank after being absent for 30 years. Once I saw a plant (Passion Flower) take over a field when fescue was eradicated, and an 80 year old farmer had not seen any Passion Flower in that field in his entire life. In fact, that field had been in fescue for around 60 years or more, and other plants were chocked out during that time. A seed company found out about the Passion Flower and wanted the seed. The owner let the plant grow and go to seed on this 5 acre field. The seed company sent 7 people to harvest the seed, and they worked for two days picking the pods by hand. They filled up two big horse trailers and two standard bed pickup trucks with passion flower seed off of that 5 acre field. That was 12 years ago, and I don't recall seeing a single passion flower in that field since that time.

Therefore, you have to keep after unwanted weeds over time. Some seed can remain viable in the soil for decades and then suddenly pop up when you least expect them. And new seed, such as pilewort or marestail can easily blow in from the surrounding area. However, the job of plot management usually does become easier as the seed bank becomes more exhausted of unwanted plant seed. Good luck.

 

[SD51555]

The weed seed bank is a tricky one. There is a research farm out here that has been doing multi-year trials on weed seed viability. What they're finding is the exact opposite of what we've been taught. They found turning the soil over doesn't just bury weed seeds, it preserves them. When a weed see lays on the soil surface it remains exposed to seed predators (beetles and others) and other modes of degradation or consumption not found in the subsoil. That seed lays on top of the most active fraction of the soil and is eventually broken down to non-viability, or never gets an opening or stimulus to germinate, provided no opening is created (spraying or tilling).

Dwayne Beck has a good talk on the youtube about it. He had a great one-liner at the end of his presentation. "If tillage were effective at eliminating weeds, there'd be no weeds." Get your clover plot blend into balance and the weed problems should go away simply because they're not needed.

This talk is mostly about designing cash crop rotations to increase profitability over a multi-year span vs looking at single year profit/acre. But the gems are in there.

 

[Native Hunter]

As long as there are highways, and as long as the highway departments keep doing what they have always done, there will continue to be an abundance of unwanted weed seed. Right now in my state the highway roadsides are covered with Canadian Thistle, Poison Hemlock and a multitude of other noxious weeds just going to seed. If that isn't enough - they are now sewing Serecia and have even developed special cultivars of it - such as "Interstate" - what a cute name indeed. I'm sure it will stay on the Interstate and never escape into farmer's fields to plague them.

Also keep in mind that some of the modern crap that is being preached just doesn't hold water. These people are just like politicians - they need to come up with some new lies to keep the mill turning and the research money rolling in. For instance, thistles will not just magically disappear after a certain time, and they don't exist there because of some soil problem. They exist because they were introduced in some way and as long as a seed can find a hole to the dirt, they will continue to exist. If you want to learn about plants and farming, talk to someone who has actually done it instead of someone setting behind a desk eating Vegan Wafers and Chinese Water Chestnuts.

Good luck with your plots.

 

[SD51555]

Also keep in mind that some of the modern crap that is being preached just doesn't hold water.

Would you share an example? Not combatting, just curious.

 

[Native Hunter]

Would you share an example? Not combatting, just curious.

An example would be where someone says that thistles are present due to some problem with the soil, and that when the problem is corrected in some way that the thistles will just disappear. That isn't true. It is true that thistles and other annuals will be less abundant when sod forming perennials limit their ability to reproduce by taking up ground space. It is also true that as natural succession takes place that annuals like thistles will disappear as briers, pioneering species and eventually climax species take control, but thistles don't just appear because there is a problem with the soil, and they don't disappear because some problem is fixed.

It is also true that some plants are unusually sensitive to PH and may disappear when something is done to change the PH. A good example is Andropogon Virginicus. It thrives in soils with low PH and cannot survive when the PH is changed to favor more desirable pasture grasses. However, is low PH really a problem with the soil? The answer to that question depends on what you want to be growing. If it is palatable pasture grasses, it is a problem, but if it is chestnuts and oaks, it is not a problem. So, low PH is not a problem unless what you are trying to grow doesn't do well in soil with a low PH.

I've heard people say in recent years that if you are having problems with some unwanted plant that you just need to fix some soil problem, and that will be the cure. That could be true for just a few plants (like my example above) but not for most. If someone can get rid of Johnson Grass by amending or improving the soil and still have anything else worthwhile growing, I'm all ears, but I'm not holding my breath.

Thanks, and have a great day.