How much are you willing to spend for fertilizer on your plots this year?

[homerj1]

Some of the more successful farmers that I know.....have a stake in poultry or hog operations.....and have a very limited need for nitrogen. I sure wish I had started down the no-till path a few more years ago.....and I wish there was some sources for manure in the forest lands of Northern MN. I sure would like to get some poultry litter. Like most things......I gotta learn it the hard way. Grin.

Here you go https://www.cropfertilityservices.com/bulk-chicken-manure-pellets/

Ya, I know it's not the same as getting a few truckloads of fresh litter.

 

[Foggy47]

Here you go https://www.cropfertilityservices.com/bulk-chicken-manure-pellets/

Ya, I know it's not the same as getting a few truckloads of fresh litter.

Has anyone here had any experience with this? Cost / load? Doesn't appear to have very high n/p/k values.

 

[sandbur]

Some of the more successful farmers that I know.....have a stake in poultry or hog operations.....and have a very limited need for nitrogen. I sure wish I had started down the no-till path a few more years ago.....and I wish there was some sources for manure in the forest lands of Northern MN. I sure would like to get some poultry litter. Like most things......I gotta learn it the hard way. Grin.

My neighbor brought over enough aged chicken manure for the garden in his side by side. I gave him some apple wood for smoking meat.

The tators will probably go in next week. All 4-6 hills.

I till the manure in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I've spread chicken bedding back when we had birds. I don't recommend hauling it in the back of a pickup, both for your sake and those traveling behind. It did show some benefit, but not enough to make it worthwhile for me. If I had a drill I'd be more tempted to compost it and run it through with my seeds.

Wife frost seeded some pollinator seeds last fall in the area next to the coop. Think I might process some and spread it there.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

For your new plots I think getting your pH right is priority 1. If your pH isn't somewhere near neutral it won't make much difference how much fertilizer you apply.

I opened up 10 acres of new food plots in 2013 after a timber harvest. In 2014 I applied ag-lime (26 tons) a little heavier than recommended. I applied fertilizer pretty much as recommended by soil tests. In 2016 I went 100% no till. The past 2 years I have used less than recommended fertilizer inputs. All of my plots are in the 6.9 - 7.5 pH range and this will be my first year of applying zero synthetic fertilizers. No question in my mind that the no-till practice and cover cropping has helped my soil a lot.

Initially my cover crops were usually just rye or in some cases rye and clover. The past few years my cover crops have been a blend of 8-12 different plants and I believe this has helped tremendously.

You have the right idea.

Got soil test results back yesterday. They didn’t list nitrate contents?

Anyways, looks like I have some work to do. @Wild Thing do you have any old soil tests to show the level of improvement?

 

[Wild Thing]

Got soil test results back yesterday. They didn’t list nitrate contents?

Anyways, looks like I have some work to do. @Wild Thing do you have any old soil tests to show the level of improvement?

View attachment 42602

I do have some older soil test reports on my home computer WG but I am out of town this week. I will try to remember to look them up when I get home.
Yes - your soil does need some help as many of our soils have when we first opened up new plots. As I mentioned previously, the most important input at this point is to get your pH closer to neutral (7.0), so getting that headed in the right direction would be my first priority. I would get the ag-lime worked into your soil ASAP, and then apply the recommended amounts of P and K. Then sample your soil again next year to monitor your progress.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I do have some older soil test reports on my home computer WG but I am out of town this week. I will try to remember to look them up when I get home.
Yes - your soil does need some help as many of our soils have when we first opened up new plots. As I mentioned previously, the most important input at this point is to get your pH closer to neutral (7.0), so getting that headed in the right direction would be my first priority. I would get the ag-lime worked into your soil ASAP, and then apply the recommended amounts of P and K. Then sample your soil again next year to monitor your progress.

For clarification I was not planning on working the majority of my soil at all. I’m aware that it takes longer for the lime to go to work if I’m just broadcasting on the surface but is it that big of a difference?

 

[Wild Thing]

For clarification I was not planning on working the majority of my soil at all. I’m aware that it takes longer for the lime to go to work if I’m just broadcasting on the surface but is it that big of a difference?

OK - I believe your plots had already been in ag for some time so it probably isn't necessary to level them out and remove rocks and stumps like I had to do on all of my plots when i opened them up? In my case it was no big deal to disc in the ag-lime after I spread it, which is probably the fastest way to incorporate it. The lime will eventually find its way into the soil if you just spread it on top, but it will take longer than it would if you lightly disced it in. Your call on that. I can see why you wouldn‘t want to work the soil at this point as it would destroy at least some of your Organic Matter, which at 3.0 is fairly good. Being a firm believer in No-Till myself I would likely just spread it on top and take a look at how much it raised your pH by next year. I wasn't faced with that decision so it was easy for me to just spread the ag-lime and then disc it in. You could also consider using pelletized lime but that would be much more costly.

Maybe somebody else here has spread ag-lime without working it into the soil and they can chime in?

 

[PatinPA]

OK - I believe your plots had already been in ag for some time so it probably isn't necessary to level them out and remove rocks and stumps like I had to do on all of my plots when i opened them up? In my case it was no big deal to disc in the ag-lime after I spread it, which is probably the fastest way to incorporate it. The lime will eventually find its way into the soil if you just spread it on top, but it will take longer than it would if you lightly disced it in. Your call on that. I can see why you wouldn‘t want to work the soil at this point as it would destroy at least some of your Organic Matter, which at 3.0 is fairly good. Being a firm believer in No-Till myself I would likely just spread it on top and take a look at how much it raised your pH by next year. I wasn't faced with that decision so it was easy for me to just spread the ag-lime and then disc it in. You could also consider using pelletized lime but that would be much more costly.

Maybe somebody else here has spread ag-lime without working it into the soil and they can chime in?

I hand spread bags of the pulverized lime last year and there are still clumps on the surface where a small pile ended up. I do not recommend and if you do it wear old shoes and make sure you take them off before you go in your house or your wife will be pissed.

 

[BrushyPines]

OK - I believe your plots had already been in ag for some time so it probably isn't necessary to level them out and remove rocks and stumps like I had to do on all of my plots when i opened them up? In my case it was no big deal to disc in the ag-lime after I spread it, which is probably the fastest way to incorporate it. The lime will eventually find its way into the soil if you just spread it on top, but it will take longer than it would if you lightly disced it in. Your call on that. I can see why you wouldn‘t want to work the soil at this point as it would destroy at least some of your Organic Matter, which at 3.0 is fairly good. Being a firm believer in No-Till myself I would likely just spread it on top and take a look at how much it raised your pH by next year. I wasn't faced with that decision so it was easy for me to just spread the ag-lime and then disc it in. You could also consider using pelletized lime but that would be much more costly.

Maybe somebody else here has spread ag-lime without working it into the soil and they can chime in?

I can chime in a little. First and foremost, it is a marathon and not a sprint with lime. My soil test 2 years ago was a PH of 5.0 and recommended to apply 3 tons of lime an acre disced in or 1.5 tons an acre applied on top. I applied on top due to starting TnM method and it raised it to 5.3 in a year. I'm thinking it would have raised the PH a little more by discing it in, but the benefits of TnM outweigh discing in lime IMO.

 

[bigboreblr]

Got soil test results back yesterday. They didn’t list nitrate contents?

Anyways, looks like I have some work to do. @Wild Thing do you have any old soil tests to show the level of improvement?

View attachment 42602

Wind Gypsy, your camp is near some decent AG areas. Maybe hire a company to broadcast the lime, and disc what you can. 5.7 isn't great, but in sandy soil you probably dont need more than 1 ton/acre to get that in a good spot. I got similar looking soil to work with. I reguarly lime lightly and it looks great. Year 3 after liming shows in fertility. But, my maitnenance is to apply 3 bags of lime to 1 bag of fertilizer every other year, and it been going good for awhile.

IF you can afford to have them come in and lime what you will do and what you'd like to do in the next 3 years. One and done. doing it yourself will be alot of work. Also, places you can rent a trailer filled with lime / or lime / fertilizer mix. I can rent a 3 ton one near my home.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Wind Gypsy, your camp is near some decent AG areas. Maybe hire a company to broadcast the lime, and disc what you can. 5.7 isn't great, but in sandy soil you probably dont need more than 1 ton/acre to get that in a good spot. I got similar looking soil to work with. I reguarly lime lightly and it looks great. Year 3 after liming shows in fertility. But, my maitnenance is to apply 3 bags of lime to 1 bag of fertilizer every other year, and it been going good for awhile.

IF you can afford to have them come in and lime what you will do and what you'd like to do in the next 3 years. One and done. doing it yourself will be alot of work. Also, places you can rent a trailer filled with lime / or lime / fertilizer mix. I can rent a 3 ton one near my home.

I'm going to call around to see what's available, reached out to the extension too.

I might not be able to get a buggy into my one plot. If it works out that way my game plan is to beg Foggy to rent his sweet ez flow spreader or try to find one for myself.

 

[FarmerDan]

For clarification I was not planning on working the majority of my soil at all. I’m aware that it takes longer for the lime to go to work if I’m just broadcasting on the surface but is it that big of a difference?

Is that a big difference? Yes. No. Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on a lot of factors, soil characteristics, weather, and type of lime (screen size, etc) being major factors. The general rule(s)-of-thumb are guides only.
Couple of ideas have merit and others not so much. I can't tell the difference.

Is it better to work lime into the soil or leave it on top? There's much debate. Again, generally, mixing it in means into the top six inches of soil which, for talking purposes, weighs 2-million pounds. So a ton of lime into 2-million lbs? Second, mixing it in might improve soil pH to that depth, but where are the majority of the plant roots? Probably close to the surface.

My esteemed agronomy professor said (kinda like the Internet - if it's there it must be true) surface applied lime will move into the soil two or three inches every six months. As it moves deeper into the soil some of it vacates the upper surface inches. Point being, if you need a lot of pH boost - like requiring over 1 1/2 tons do a split application six-months apart, the theory being you have a consistent pH thru the "plow" layer.

Common knowledge says it takes a long time for lime to affect soil pH. What's likely happening? It takes the lime a long time to move into the soil...BUT here's the thing. On the soil surface after applying lime with no incorporation the pH begins to change immediately and can move into the 1-inch profile rather quickly slowing down as it goes deeper. So, for a new plant just germinating where are the roots? In the top 1 to 2 inches. Now your ton of lime is affecting not 2-million pounds of soil but only one-third or less of that amount. That's a HUGH boost to the situation!

Is it a big difference? Frankly, I prefer split applications of surface applied lime - if I need that much.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I'm going to call around to see what's available, reached out to the extension too.

I might not be able to get a buggy into my one plot. If it works out that way my game plan is to beg Foggy to rent his sweet ez flow spreader or try to find one for myself.

That looks like the U of MN soil testing report - I have a pile of those sitting at my house and it is interesting to see how they change over the years. As stated by others, I would start by adding lime and also P & K. I'd have to look back at my notes, but i thought P should be around 30+ and K should be 150 ppm. I'd put add a couple hundred pounds per acre of fertilizer high in those two nutrients.

You can apply nitrogen based on the crop you are planting. For brassicas I typically add 100-200 pounds of urea (44-0-0 I believe) per acre. You don't need any nitrogen for soybeans, more nitrogen for corn and less for rye/triticale. That's what I have done and it works for me. Over time my organic matter and nutrients have increased despite the fact that I use tillage!

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Is that a big difference? Yes. No. Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on a lot of factors, soil characteristics, weather, and type of lime (screen size, etc) being major factors. The general rule(s)-of-thumb are guides only.
Couple of ideas have merit and others not so much. I can't tell the difference.

Is it better to work lime into the soil or leave it on top? There's much debate. Again, generally, mixing it in means into the top six inches of soil which, for talking purposes, weighs 2-million pounds. So a ton of lime into 2-million lbs? Second, mixing it in might improve soil pH to that depth, but where are the majority of the plant roots? Probably close to the surface.

My esteemed agronomy professor said (kinda like the Internet - if it's there it must be true) surface applied lime will move into the soil two or three inches every six months. As it moves deeper into the soil some of it vacates the upper surface inches. Point being, if you need a lot of pH boost - like requiring over 1 1/2 tons do a split application six-months apart, the theory being you have a consistent pH thru the "plow" layer.

Common knowledge says it takes a long time for lime to affect soil pH. What's likely happening? It takes the lime a long time to move into the soil...BUT here's the thing. On the soil surface after applying lime with no incorporation the pH begins to change immediately and can move into the 1-inch profile rather quickly slowing down as it goes deeper. So, for a new plant just germinating where are the roots? In the top 1 to 2 inches. Now your ton of lime is affecting not 2-million pounds of soil but only one-third or less of that amount. That's a HUGH boost to the situation!

Is it a big difference? Frankly, I prefer split applications of surface applied lime - if I need that much.

Interesting. I read this article https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/articles/2033-considerations-for-liming-no-till-fields and it had me convinced that I should disc it in as they claim the K State study showed no impact on pH below 2-3" after 5 years with surface lime application. What you're saying makes sense though.

I may have to try both in different sections of a plot.

 

[Nightvision]

I have to fertilize my alfalfa so I did. I may do it again this fall.

Still undecided if I’ll fertilize the fall plots. We had a late frost that stomped our acorns so our plots are going to be a hot commodity this year and will probably need fertilizer just to keep up.

 

[Nightvision]

Blueberries like acidic soil so you know that plot is going to need some lime for sure.

What am I missing here? Adding lime will make the soil less acidic.

 

[FarmerDan]

Interesting. I read this article https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/articles/2033-considerations-for-liming-no-till-fields and it had me convinced that I should disc it in as they claim the K State study showed no impact on pH below 2-3" after 5 years with surface lime application. What you're saying makes sense though.

I may have to try both in different sections of a plot.

It is an interesting article! Thanks for providing the read! There are so many variables involved in all of this - in all of growing stuff - all we can hope for is to get somewhere close to something that works. Without dissecting the article / research, what's their bottom line?

"The bottom line is that there are beneficial effects of surface application of limestone to acidic no-till soils even though the immediate effect may only be in the top 1 to 2 inches."

They leave that conclusion unexplained. The position I've taken (and I've been at this nearly 50-years) is 1) I'd sure like to believe I can mix a bunch of lime into the top 6-inches and get a uniform pH. What I've learned is there is no such thing - not across the length and breadth of a field nor in depth. The foot-by-foot variation is crazy! 2) If i could achieve the ideal it would be expensive in terms of time and money. 3) Then I question the return on all that time and money. If a plant can't reach the nutrition provided what's the point? I'm not dismissing the soil layer below 3-inches, not at all. It has important contributions to make in terms of what's available - but later in the plants life. 4) When is nutrition most critical and where are the roots at that time? It depends. But the critical time is early in the plants life - at germination when conditions tend to be less favorable (cold and wet or hot and dry). And where are the roots? I'd guess 80% - 90% or more are in the top two or three inches. I'm content that surface applied lime is more than adequate and the returns to the investment, be it your time or my money are enormous - just by keeping it simple.

 

[SD51555]

A few years ago, I started digging small ponds (water holes really) on my place. I spread these soils out on my food plots. In some places, I've got 30" of this subsoil. I got the wild idea to sample my subsoil beings that this was all of a sudden my new topsoil.

I went to one of my dig sites and pulled cores from the 24-30" depth because that was about the mid point of my dig. I was blown away at how different the subsoil was compared to the topsoil a mere 12-18" away. It was when I saw this I quit worrying about working lime in, and I quit adding magnesium. For comparison, the upper test is the topsoil from this same spot.



Far as roots go, I think that really depends on your practices. A no-till/no-kill perennial system is going to have multi-year root channels that go very deep and can be explored by roots very quickly. If you also have robust mycorhizal fungi, your root mass can be 100X larger than a some-till/some-kill system, and that renders these root zone considerations a non factor as the roots can just reach past a trouble spot to get nutrients.

I believe that is why nearly all soils were growing things just fine before us. We unknowingly knock out the mycorhizal fungi in the conversion to food plot process, which is unavoidable, and suddenly we're stuck in that acidic zone only, and we gotta throw the kitchen sink at it to get it working again. In reality, we just got to plug back into the MF network. There's nothing we can do other than not prohibit it from rebuilding itself.

 

[FarmerDan]

I know I'm risking being overinvolved in this, but as the Latins say, Carpe Diem!
We need to talk about soil sampling in depth....but, later.

If you realize the effects of the lime you are applying are reaching only 2 -3 inches, which is where a disproportionate share of you applied nutrients are also found, how deep are you going to go to get you sample?

And, then, how are you going to collect a representative sample of a million pounds of soil over an acre?