Telemark
5 year old buck +
That's what I figured based on what I read. Is that a problem for deer? Will they eat the beans off the ground, or will the beans rot before the deer get to them?
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Habitat out loud
- Thread starter SD51555
- Start date
That's what I figured based on what I read. Is that a problem for deer? Will they eat the beans off the ground, or will the beans rot before the deer get to them?
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Heck if I know but i'd think they'd go bad relatively quick?
SD51555
5 year old buck +
It's all bad. You're asking for a pHD in soil organic chemistry and physics with that question. If this was easier to explain, no land manager would ever touch a disc to soil ever again.
Short version: You get compaction, lose OM, lose carbon, lose residual nitrogen and biological nitrogen production, you lose pore space, you kill earth worms, beneficial fungi, you become extremely vulnerable to drought and heat, you'll have phosphorus deficiency, you'll touch off a boom of response weeds, and more.
TreeDaddy
5 year old buck +
Increased O2/oxidation is jet fuel to copiotrophic bacteria and they will " burn down the house" ie your OM
bill
SD51555
5 year old buck +
I think rolling (not crimping) the plots was a really big breakthrough this year. My goal has always been to do the most with the least while also being as resistant to disaster (drought, weed explosions, etc) as possible. I was sure I'd have to bring in imox around year 5 to clean up these plots. After seeing how this turned out, I'm very bullish on this system lasting even longer than 5 years, and being nothing less than the absolute highest quality forages because that system has run unbroken for years. I'm talking about achieving elite levels of brix going past year 3 and beyond.
The plots do look like hell in July, and it takes a lot of faith to trust the plan. Even so, there is still more to be done to watch how other grasses respond to this. It doesn't work with all of them. So far, I've found canary grass laughs at rolling and keeps on producing. Sedge is another. Brome is a third. Brome seems to leave some kind of exudate that just shuts down the good stuff. So the work goes on.
But for the rest, they're not only no longer a problem, they are volunteer residue, volunteer carbon producers, and free diversity to drive nutrient cycling, site matched by the Lord himself. What's also left to be seen is how the winter trit will do next year. I do not expect a bumper crop. Frankly, I'd be stunned if the stand even hits a third of a pure stand. But what the trit is supposed to do, these other grasses are also doing.
One last hole someone could punch in this is tonnage. Those plots ain't gonna put out giant tonnage per acre like a corn plot, 80 bushel beans, or softball sized turnips. That being said, I don't need to feed deer in spring and summer, or even early fall. I need them there when I'm hunting, and when my neighbors are hunting. For me, clover and chicory takes center stage starting around October first. I want those deer to stay off the plots as long as possible so the food is there when I need it most. So, for 46 weeks a year, that plot maintains itself, and 6 weeks it's there to serve the deer.
After deer season, I want the deer to rely on browse like they're supposed to. Outside of starting these plots with demolition, liming, gypsum'ing, seeding, dragging, and packing, it doesn't take even a half a day to do all of my plots and maybe a gallon of gas. I spend more time driving to each one with the packer than actually rolling and seeding them. Where I do spend an immense amount of time and labor is on forest management. I'm not trained in it, but I've learned a lot by trial and error and after a number of years, I've gotten ahead of the deer on browse.
The plots do look like hell in July, and it takes a lot of faith to trust the plan. Even so, there is still more to be done to watch how other grasses respond to this. It doesn't work with all of them. So far, I've found canary grass laughs at rolling and keeps on producing. Sedge is another. Brome is a third. Brome seems to leave some kind of exudate that just shuts down the good stuff. So the work goes on.
But for the rest, they're not only no longer a problem, they are volunteer residue, volunteer carbon producers, and free diversity to drive nutrient cycling, site matched by the Lord himself. What's also left to be seen is how the winter trit will do next year. I do not expect a bumper crop. Frankly, I'd be stunned if the stand even hits a third of a pure stand. But what the trit is supposed to do, these other grasses are also doing.
One last hole someone could punch in this is tonnage. Those plots ain't gonna put out giant tonnage per acre like a corn plot, 80 bushel beans, or softball sized turnips. That being said, I don't need to feed deer in spring and summer, or even early fall. I need them there when I'm hunting, and when my neighbors are hunting. For me, clover and chicory takes center stage starting around October first. I want those deer to stay off the plots as long as possible so the food is there when I need it most. So, for 46 weeks a year, that plot maintains itself, and 6 weeks it's there to serve the deer.
After deer season, I want the deer to rely on browse like they're supposed to. Outside of starting these plots with demolition, liming, gypsum'ing, seeding, dragging, and packing, it doesn't take even a half a day to do all of my plots and maybe a gallon of gas. I spend more time driving to each one with the packer than actually rolling and seeding them. Where I do spend an immense amount of time and labor is on forest management. I'm not trained in it, but I've learned a lot by trial and error and after a number of years, I've gotten ahead of the deer on browse.
matinc
5 year old buck +
SD great observations, when I saw my plots in July it wasn't pretty I'm so glad you kept my faith up through that time period. I know my plots aren't a 10th of what you have now but I am seeing progress. What really surprised me was seeing 3 feet of thick grass that I crimped and after two crimping passes looked stout and unbroken. 3 weeks later they were smooshed when I got back. I couldn't believe it. Your system is so quick to implement, saves fuel and wear and tear on the equipment. I wish others would change their ways and eliminate any need for herbicides. I will never move dirt again nor would I spend time and money on a drill and tractor. Kuddos to those who do it but not for me. I truly thank you for your inspiration and vast knowledge. I am so grateful for your help.
SD51555
5 year old buck +
Thanks for the kind words man. There is still a time and place for iron and chems, and I don’t fault anyone for having to use them periodically, I even used them in my new plot this year.
I just hope to keep it to a minimum and keep my little 40 as clean as I can for the critters. I enjoy the process of discovery and also enjoy sharing what works, and even what doesn’t. Quack grass is one of those that also needs the juice. I just haven’t found a way to get rid of it without gly.
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SD, I've been following along for quite some time. If you don't mind me asking, are you fundamentally opposed to crimping? If so, why? Or do you just find it unnecessary that a roller will do the trick for your needs? To me, it seems like potentially an effective means to minimize chemical intervention (which I would like to do in the future but not there yet).
I laid down a "failed plot" with a pass of the back blade snowplow on my tractor late this summer to prevent an excess of weed seed generation, and was pleasantly surprised to notice some chicory and clover poking through last week. I'm doubtful that it's an impressive stand of forage from a tonnage perspective, but I saw enough popping up to get me thinking nonetheless.
You may have touched on this already, but one thing that comes to my mind when reading your threads and seeing your impressive results is ensuring you have the appropriate plant selection/blend for your plots. I'd venture to say, no till/throw mow/drill etc. is relatively easy if you layer on a coat of herbicide prior to planting, but to achieve successful outcomes without chemical intervention (or minimal chem) I think implementing a thoughtful seed/plant selection is increasingly important. I know what you plant, and that it will vary across geographic locations, but how do you think about species selection? Any general principles you follow, or just trial and error and leaning on the plants that have produced well for you historically?
I laid down a "failed plot" with a pass of the back blade snowplow on my tractor late this summer to prevent an excess of weed seed generation, and was pleasantly surprised to notice some chicory and clover poking through last week. I'm doubtful that it's an impressive stand of forage from a tonnage perspective, but I saw enough popping up to get me thinking nonetheless.
You may have touched on this already, but one thing that comes to my mind when reading your threads and seeing your impressive results is ensuring you have the appropriate plant selection/blend for your plots. I'd venture to say, no till/throw mow/drill etc. is relatively easy if you layer on a coat of herbicide prior to planting, but to achieve successful outcomes without chemical intervention (or minimal chem) I think implementing a thoughtful seed/plant selection is increasingly important. I know what you plant, and that it will vary across geographic locations, but how do you think about species selection? Any general principles you follow, or just trial and error and leaning on the plants that have produced well for you historically?
SD51555
5 year old buck +
The only problem with crimping is that it's too effective. I only base this on three things.
First, @S.T.Fanatic took a crimper to a plot that had chicory in it, and it killed the chicory.
Second, I took a plain packer to mine and didn't kill the chicory.
Third, I don't want the grasses to die.
They are like senior citizens. They have all the wealth, all the real estate, they don't cause trouble, and they go to bed early. Keeping those old grasses alive is preventing new grass from having a chance, but it is also laying down and letting sun in.
Proper seed selection isn't optional. If you choose wrong, this will not work. I'm 100% against all white clover. It's not a bad forage, it just never gives up. The secret to all of this working is that these plants all have predictable ends to their life cycle, whether that's winter, or next summer. My blend is a combo of stuff that self terminates, and stuff that doesn't, but allows other things to grow with it.
Other questions to answer:
Will it broadcast germinate?
Will it tolerate 6-8" of fluffy sun blocking residue?
Will it grow into something useful?
Will it draw deer at the right time?
What happens if I roll it?
Is it worth the effort?
I like the way you think.
Interestingly enough, I chose to lean on white clover for the exact reason you lean away from it. I'm aiming for forage that is easily established (broadcast germ), long lasting (perennial), provide adequate draw, and able to suppress weeds. Essentially, easy to grow with low maintenance. In my experience, white clover checks a lot of those boxes for me right now. I will continue to tinker with various blends, but white clover definitely carries a pretty large focus in my plots, although I'm not as far along the journey as you are. I've been converting overgrown fields to plots to improve deer use of my property and have found the tenacity of white clover to be pretty effective in doing so. Once these clover stands peter out I may change tune and try something else, I suppose time will tell.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom on here, I enjoy following along your land tour. Good luck this season
SD51555
5 year old buck +
White clover is a solid B forage. Once the beans, brassicas, alfalfa, and corn are gone, white clover is king alongside chicory in my country.
The one thing I have not tried, is rolling white clover. I would be curious to see what 16” Dutch white or ladino would do after being pressed flat. I’m sure it would stand up at some point, but how fast? Would it Stay down long enough for a cereal grain to punch thru? I don’t know.
There are guys with drills that can get it to punch thru, but I don’t know if it’d stay down long enough in a throw and roll. It’s also very hard to get seed to soil thru standing thick white clover. It’s like 16” of spaghetti standing up out there. But if you pressed it Flat, I bet the roots could reach even if it germinated in mid air.
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SD51555
5 year old buck +
Bill
Administrator
No, it put out small seed heads but the rye was sparse and none over 2 foot tall. And I drilled at the rate I put on bare fields that grow thick. Last year was my first try. Maybe I should try again.
Brian662
5 year old buck +
I broadcast rye into white perennial clovers and get good rye germination. It usually seems to take a 2-3 day rain event to get it going but we always catch that at least some point in the fall. The last two years it was post Oct 15 in my area but the rye comes on stronger in the spring when the clover is weak and withered before thickening up.
SD51555
5 year old buck +
I had a little luck broadcasting winter trit in one of my plots in mid october last year. The idea was to seed it after growth stopped and the deer were certain to be busy taking the clover down. It worked to an extent in that what came up grew very well this year, but it was very patchy and not widespread. Not enough to say it was a good idea.
Brian662
5 year old buck +
Keep in mind I'm somewhere nearby 2 growing zones south of you. For a $14 bag of rye, it's worth a shot. Either get a cereal on the clover or fight the grasses the following year.
