Good blood, then nothing
- Thread starter 4wanderingeyes
- Start date
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
And maybe that is a big difference in our opinions...Where we hunt. Penetration has never been an issue, even back when I was shooting and old martin scepter that was quite slow by todays standards and with expandables. The only time penetration has ever been an issue for me is on an errant shot, for whatever reason. It is rare for a deer I've shot not to run at least 80 yards and 150 is not uncommon. These are deer shot through the thoracic cavity. In the thick woods I hunt in, blood trails are key to recover. Blood trails and low exit wounds are key for me. I can certainly see how folks hunting in more open areas that can use more vision for recovery may have different approaches.
Angus 1895
5 year old buck +
A deer running at 60 mph that runs for 3 seconds goes less than 300 feet.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
My deer live a lot longer than 3 seconds. I've occasionally shot bucks during rut and never hit a bone. Some have jumped and ran a few feet then stopped and started waling like they didn't even know what happened. After much more than 3 seconds, they staggered a bit and fell over dead. Deer can react in very strange ways, but it is clear to me deer live a lot longer than 3 seconds. Bucks, in general, travel much further than does and in my habitat, recovery is the biggest issue,
Angus 1895
5 year old buck +
I usually get em done in under 3 seconds.
If they last longer I probably missed my mark.
Mule deer, Whitetail, Elk…..either sex, does not seem to matter.
It seems females have more will to evade recovery.
If they last longer I probably missed my mark.
Mule deer, Whitetail, Elk…..either sex, does not seem to matter.
It seems females have more will to evade recovery.
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Well, you're a better man than I. Here is a quote from a Petersons's article which is very consistent with my personal experience:
" Even when shot through the heart or both lungs, a mortally wounded deer can live six to 10 seconds, which means it can easily cover 200 yards. However, it may not run that far, particularly if it was relaxed when you shot."
Angus 1895
5 year old buck +
I start counting…..one thousand one etc…….
rarely get to three.
but there you go 200 yards.???
U must live in the jungle with quick sand if you can’t radial search 200 yards W/O a blood trail.
rarely get to three.
but there you go 200 yards.???
U must live in the jungle with quick sand if you can’t radial search 200 yards W/O a blood trail.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
As I say, you're a better many than I.
Angus 1895
5 year old buck +
That will be the day.
BTW 60 mph is 88 feet per second.
10 seconds is 880 feet.
Do the math.
BTW 60 mph is 88 feet per second.
10 seconds is 880 feet.
Do the math.
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cavey
5 year old buck +
Everyone talks wound size entry hole dia and the benefits of a larger cut, but they tend to forget that "depth" of wound as in penetration cumulatively may equal or exceed the overall damaged area of the latter and tissue damage via the depth of the corridor of the arrow passing through is just as important as punching a big hole.
My goal is always a double lung pass through - does not always happen but I love tracking a deer thats blowing out two holes . In either case shot placement is the number one factor getting the broadhead into the right spot regardless - as long as all the cards line up.
I have no doubts this same argument existed around campfires a 1000 years ago.....
Angus 1895
5 year old buck +
Slowing an arrow by adding weight will often increase KE. As heavier arrows absorb more energy from the “ launch.”
Often a double lung will cause blood out the nostrils and pharynx.
If they live that long.
Often a double lung will cause blood out the nostrils and pharynx.
If they live that long.
cavey
5 year old buck +
So.... your telling us everything you shoot dies in 3 seconds or less????? cuzzz I can drop a unicorn in under 2 seconds ... I personally arrow piled deer a with a 50 yard gut shot and have blown the heart out of one with a 12ga slug and had it run almost a 100 yards with zero cardiac output and almost everything in between but to say everything I shot drops and kacks in 3 seconds flat or I missed especially ELK and that does and cows die harder.... Up is down down is up........cats and dogs living together....... and I dont need a beer right now.....
cavey
5 year old buck +
I will agree with you there though...
Angus 1895
5 year old buck +
Now imagine the effect on an arrow passing through tissues. Tissues are more solid than air. They have a greater density. Their resistance to an object’s passage is higher. Visualize the effect as an arrow’s velocity increases from 150 feet per second (a fairly typical velocity from a mid-draw weight traditional bow) to 300 feet per second (as from a top line compound bow).
Let us now assume an arrow weighing 700 grains for the slower bow (150 fps is easily achievable with that weight arrow and a ‘traditional’ bow) and a 390 grain arrow for the faster bow (the advertised velocity rating for one of the newest compound bows on the market, using that weight arrow). The slower arrow has 0.466 slug feet per second of disposable net force. The faster arrow has 0.519 slug feet per second.
Lets also assume these two arrows are of same materials, have equal physical external dimensions (easily achievable), and both have perfect flight characteristics. The tissue’s resistance increase is totally dependant upon the velocity of the arrow.
The lighter arrow has 10.22 percent more disposable net force (and 123.2 percent more kinetic energy) than the heavier arrow but, because of its higher velocity, it is met by four times the resistance to penetration. Which arrow will penetrate further in real tissues? Empirical evidence from the outcome studies provides an overwhelmingly definitive answer. Both the frequency and degree to which the heavier, slower, arrow out-penetrates the lighter one is of such a magnitude that it must be viewed as the norm.
According to this article I am wrong about KE.
But I think truly chronographs of shots will show improvement of energy transfer with heavier arrows/bolts.
Let us now assume an arrow weighing 700 grains for the slower bow (150 fps is easily achievable with that weight arrow and a ‘traditional’ bow) and a 390 grain arrow for the faster bow (the advertised velocity rating for one of the newest compound bows on the market, using that weight arrow). The slower arrow has 0.466 slug feet per second of disposable net force. The faster arrow has 0.519 slug feet per second.
Lets also assume these two arrows are of same materials, have equal physical external dimensions (easily achievable), and both have perfect flight characteristics. The tissue’s resistance increase is totally dependant upon the velocity of the arrow.
The lighter arrow has 10.22 percent more disposable net force (and 123.2 percent more kinetic energy) than the heavier arrow but, because of its higher velocity, it is met by four times the resistance to penetration. Which arrow will penetrate further in real tissues? Empirical evidence from the outcome studies provides an overwhelmingly definitive answer. Both the frequency and degree to which the heavier, slower, arrow out-penetrates the lighter one is of such a magnitude that it must be viewed as the norm.
According to this article I am wrong about KE.
But I think truly chronographs of shots will show improvement of energy transfer with heavier arrows/bolts.
Angus 1895
5 year old buck +
If you re read the post……
If it takes longer than that time I missed my mark.
I figure a deer can cover 100 fps max. 3 seconds = 100 yards.
And perhaps when I count one thousand one it’s longer than a second?
I am stating this observation in how I recover game.
I wait 15 to thirty minutes…..and only search close….if it is not close…I missed my mark…
It may need more time to expire. And that’s how I proceed.
If in doubt
Back out.
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Pass-thru is even more important. If you don't have an exit wound, you don't have a blood trail. For me, penetration is a non-issue. on a well placed shot. I've often had poor or non-existent blood trails to follow. I completely agree, shot selection is key. After many years, my discretion with shot selection and distance are largely why penetration is largely a non-issue for me.
4wanderingeyes
5 year old buck +
A little update, I have talked to a couple neighbors, no one has seen him. I haven’t been out hunting since. I may put the bow away and just get a crossbow for next season. I am taking the experience pretty hard.
I have bow hunted since I was strong enough to pull back a bow, which would have been about 14, back in the mid 80’s. I have lost a few deer through the years, and while I would feel bad, it has never affected me like this. I have also slug hunted, and rifle hunted about the same amount of time.
I have seen where I would hit the heart with a 12ga slug and take about a 1 inch slice from it, and I tracked it a half mile. I have exploded the heart with a rifle and seen them run 50 yards. I have also had many drop in their tracks.
The most memorable one was a buck hot on the tracks of a doe during rut, the doe walked through, and about 5 minutes later the buck walked through snorting with his nose on the ground, I shot him with a 12 ga, and he jumped, and bucked, then went right back to sniffing the ground and back to trailing that doe. He dropped about 75 yards away, I thought I missed, but I had split his heart in half. They are tough critters.
Rifle season starts next weekend, I assume I may hear about him after that.
I have bow hunted since I was strong enough to pull back a bow, which would have been about 14, back in the mid 80’s. I have lost a few deer through the years, and while I would feel bad, it has never affected me like this. I have also slug hunted, and rifle hunted about the same amount of time.
I have seen where I would hit the heart with a 12ga slug and take about a 1 inch slice from it, and I tracked it a half mile. I have exploded the heart with a rifle and seen them run 50 yards. I have also had many drop in their tracks.
The most memorable one was a buck hot on the tracks of a doe during rut, the doe walked through, and about 5 minutes later the buck walked through snorting with his nose on the ground, I shot him with a 12 ga, and he jumped, and bucked, then went right back to sniffing the ground and back to trailing that doe. He dropped about 75 yards away, I thought I missed, but I had split his heart in half. They are tough critters.
Rifle season starts next weekend, I assume I may hear about him after that.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Don't take it too hard. It is part of the game. Having said that, I hunted with a compound for most of my bowhunting career and loved it and the challenge. I began transitioning to a crossbow when the combination of arthritis and cold weather made a compound problematic. Over the years, I've moved more an more to a crossbow. I'm over 90% crossbow now. While the experience is different, and slightly less challenging, I think I now enjoy it just as much. Crossbows have extended my bowhunting career significantly. I probably would have stopped bowhunting altogether a few years ago if it was not for the crossbow. The risk of losing deer was increasing as my personal performance became much less consistent with a compound under hunting conditions. Not only has the consistency of my form under hunting conditions degraded, my eyesight is not what it once was. The scope on a crossbow is very helpful in that area.
Best of luck,
Jack
bueller
Moderator
Hang in there. I went through a similar event a couple years ago, with a crossbow. He did eventually show up on camera. That gun season I told myself it's him or nothing. I didn't see him and held to that but honestly I think being "trigger shy" also played a role in the deer I let walk that season. The following October I shot my 2nd largest buck to date and that healed the wound from the big one, mostly.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
KE is mass times (velocity squared). That means there are two factors involved. The first is that velocity is a much bigger factor than mass as the term in the equation is squared. The second factor is how much of that velocity is retained down range. That is where added weight (mass) can help a little. For me, bowhunting is a short range sport. 30 yards is a long shot for me. Even though I can shoot bullseyes at 50 yards at a range, too much can go wrong under hunting conditions. One big one for me, and why I like 20 yard shots much more than 30 yard shots, is the identifying small branches on saplings or low hanging branches that don't have leaves becomes quite problematic at 30 yards and beyond. It takes little to deflect an arrow from the kill zone to a wounding.
Keep in mind that KE is usually discusses with respect to firearms where the purpose is to transfer that energy to the animal kill it primarily by hydrostatic shock and system shutdown. KE plays a different role in bowhunting. It is a factor in penetration, but not the only one. Again, with good shot selection and a modern compound or crossbow, getting full pass-thru shots, even when both side ribs are hit, is not a challenge with well designed 1 1/2 inch 3 blade expandables. (I'm writing this knowing that newer bowhunters will be reading this thread).
Shooting larger game is a different ball game where penetration my become much more important. I certainly understand adding weight. There is also a difference between a compound and crossbow in terms of energy absorption by the arrow as a compound does not have a rail to reduce arrow flex. Energy absorption is also a function of the cams. When energy is applies slowly at first and faster at the end end, there is less arrow flex and more energy absorption.
Since I don't have the superpower of others to kill deer in 3 seconds with a bow, and I don't hunt in open pastures where I can easily find deer that have run a couple hundred yards, having a good blood trail with a larger exit wound that is lower in the chest cavity to prevent pooling, is much more important to me.
Thanks,
Jack
