Don't shoot deer you don't have tags for...

[S.T.Fanatic]

You are right, JFK52 was wrong to put it that way. However, just as he knows nothing about the Amish people in your area, you know nothing about the Amish people in his area. I'm ASSUMING even in his area there are more good Amish than bad. We have plenty of them in S.E. MN. as well and what JFK52 says is echoed by many of the people around here as well. It by no stretch of the imagination means that they are all bad but maybe disproportionately more so than what you are accustomed to.

My wifes uncle was killed in an accident caused by an Amish buggy that never paid a single cent in highway use tax. Obviously an extremely small percent of accidents caused but......

The Amish in your neck of the woods aren't paying highway use tax either.

Again just playing Devils advocate here.

 

[roymunson]

I understand the rules/regulations just fine but again its a grey area in my mind. I wore my seat belt on the way to work and used my turn signal but didn't set my cruise control.

Just to clear up one thing which is FACT. The hunter didn't break a single LAW. (at least none that the article mentioned)

I'm not trying to condone what he did, just expressing an opinion on the matter. This is more me having way to much time on my hands this time of year than anything.

In my area of Minnesota rifles are also illegal. Unless, the barrel is under 15" of course then shoot away. So again to ME if my neighbors shot a deer with a "traditional" rifle BFD.

I see you working. And there is probably room for nuance and gray areas. I completely get an ethic and moral divide on something. I have no problems shooting deer over bait, but i see the argument on both sides.

In ohio tho,the bag limit is 1 buck. He'd already shot, recovered, and checked his 1 buck. Thus breaking the law by shooting another.

 

[roymunson]

You are right, JFK52 was wrong to put it that way. However, just as he knows nothing about the Amish people in your area, you know nothing about the Amish people in his area. I'm ASSUMING even in his area there are more good Amish than bad. We have plenty of them in S.E. MN. as well and what JFK52 says is echoed by many of the people around here as well. It by no stretch of the imagination means that they are all bad but maybe disproportionately more so than what you are accustomed to.

My wifes uncle was killed in an accident caused by an Amish buggy that never paid a single cent in highway use tax. Obviously an extremely small percent of accidents caused but......

The Amish in your neck of the woods aren't paying highway use tax either.

Again just playing Devils advocate here.

I think we both need work to be more stressful today. hahaha

That was my point. I didn't see anything in his post stating "many of the amish in my area". I saw him lumping them all into 1 category and that's what irked me.

There are catholic priests that should be drawn, quartered, and shot, but you need to qualify that there are bad catholic priests, not say that they're all bad. Probably a terrible analogy, but I think you get my point.

There are absolutely some dark and terrible things that happen in the Amish community, but they're not all like that. That was my point. To say otherwise is untrue and ignorant.

 

[Telemark]

Where the hell did he get 30k cash?

Funny, I was just complaining about some of the Amish in the Holmes/Coshocton area, in terms of treatment of animals and pooling of funds. I couldn't have scripted a better vindication. However, as has been mentioned, it would be foolish to lump them all together. Some of them are excellent people, but some of them are scum.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Where the hell did he get 30k cash?

Just speculating, I'm guessing they have a bank account for no other reason than for cashing checks.

 

[roymunson]

Where the hell did he get 30k cash?

Funny, I was just complaining about some of the Amish in the Holmes/Coshocton area, in terms of treatment of animals and pooling of funds. I couldn't have scripted a better vindication. However, as has been mentioned, it would be foolish to lump them all together. Some of them are excellent people, but some of them are scum.

i'd agree with your last sentence for sure.

One positive thing they know how to do is be part of a group/community and organize. You've never seen as much support and helping in a community as when someone in their church has a traumatic experience (death in the family, house fire, etc). Funding is just 1 part of it, but they certainly know how to band together to help a neighbor in need.

 

[Buckly]

I agree with most here. I’ve lived amongst the Amish for 50 years. There’s good, bad and indifferent. As far as I know they pay property tax same as everyone and pay sales tax on most things like everyone else. Income tax, I’m sure it’s some but, they do mostly deal in cash and that has benefits... Actually because they are larger landowners they pay pretty heft tax and have become very interested in school budget discussions and they do vote on those. Younger Amish don’t have much but they do acquire good sums over the years. I know several millionair Amish. Gas wells, Timber, construction. They don’t have a lot of expenses. They used to be and to some extent still are hard on the deer but after a few have been cited they realize this puts them in a bad light in the community. I’ve seen quit a turnaround with the Amish and deer hunting. They seem to embrace hunting technology and some are now into QDM. I don’t think they will ever completely abandon summer deer but it’s a lot better than it used to be especially because they know they’re being watched by the law.

 

[JFK52]

roymunson, you are correct. I should have said that the Amish in the area of Wisconsin that I am familiar with are not someone I would want for a neighbor. I was wrong to lump all Amish into one group. MEA CULPA!
I also got off target with the thread as it was about poaching a giant buck. You obviously have one view of the
Amish community and I have another. I was incorrect about Amish paying property taxes.

 

[weekender21]

$30k seems like pretty serious punishment to me, seriously doubt you'll see a fine for a single deer like that in NC...ever. I agree with others, he should have lost his privileges for more than one season.

 

[Bszweda]

I'd say the Amish are pretty wealthy. It's pretty easy to accumulate wealth when you don' want material and flashy things, work hard, and only buy things with cash. They also as a community support themselves very well. I think 30K seems like reasonable punishment.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I'd say the Amish are pretty wealthy. It's pretty easy to accumulate wealth when you don' want material and flashy things, work hard, and only buy things with cash. They also as a community support themselves very well. I think 30K seems like reasonable punishment.

I don't care what the fine was. What is the state going to do with the money? How will it be used to right the wrong that was done? The hunter may never do something like that again but what about the hunters/land owners that had a deer of that magnitude taken from them?

How may Amish folks have their big bucks put in "the book"? I'm guessing few if any. Many people in my area don't tell a soul about a big harvest for several years. Entering it in "the book" yeah right.

 

[yoderjac]

Yes, everyone breaks the rules. Driving is a great example. There are also times when personal ethics may cause one to break the law. For example, if you were out of buck tags, bowhunting in the suburbs, and small spike walks under your stand with an arrow sticking out of his back clearly infected, would you shoot him? I probably would, but I'd also call the game warden and turn myself in and accept the consequences.

There is a difference between someone who misunderstands complex regulations and makes a mistake and someone understands what he is doing is illegal, makes the decision to do it, and then takes actions to avoid getting caught. That is why we have trials. From the reported information, this guy clearly falls into the latter. I see no grey area here.

Whether you call it poaching or use some other term, according the reporting he intentionally and knowingly broke the regulations and took deliberate actions to avoid getting caught. The "book" and size of the antlers don't come into play from my perspective. If the first deer was a spike, and the second a 4-point, he would have been guilty of the same thing.

When I'm speeding and get pulled over, I don't say to the officer, "everyone does it, don't give me a ticket". I say "Thanks for your service, I deserve the ticket. If you did not stop me, tomorrow I would have driven just a little faster. Eventually I would have had an accident and things would have been much worse for me than the ticket." I pay the ticket (and higher insurance) and move on.

That is my take for what it is worth.

Thanks,

jack

 

[roymunson]

I don't care what the fine was. What is the state going to do with the money? How will it be used to right the wrong that was done? The hunter may never do something like that again but what about the hunters/land owners that had a deer of that magnitude taken from them?

How may Amish folks have their big bucks put in "the book"? I'm guessing few if any. Many people in my area don't tell a soul about a big harvest for several years. Entering it in "the book" yeah right.

I'm not plugged into everyone, but I know of several booners that have been shot, and not 1 has been entered.I wouldn't enter one either. I enjoy hunting for the personal challenge, my weener is big enough without having to enter it into a book. Just me.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

That's quite the story. He was fined a little over $800 on the 5 counts against him. The remainder of that $29k was a "restitution" fine. I wonder if the fine would have been the same if the 2nd deer he killed was a 4 pointer or a doe for example?

 

[yoderjac]

That's quite the story. He was fined a little over $800 on the 5 counts against him. The remainder of that $29k was a "restitution" fine. I wonder if the fine would have been the same if the 2nd deer he killed was a 4 pointer or a doe for example?

Good point. I guess that makes sense. I thought the fine was excessive, but I can see how a judge could say that deer, shot legally by a hunter, could have economic value given the hunting industry. I think one can dispute the harshness of the punishment, but I see no grey area when it comes to the crime.

Thanks,

jack

 

[MickT]

TN has a similar law now. It allows judges that are so inclined to levy a fine that is a true deterrent. We had a trespassing/ road hunting case here a few years ago that netted a fine in excess of $10k.


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[Natty Bumppo]

Good point. I guess that makes sense. I thought the fine was excessive, but I can see how a judge could say that deer, shot legally by a hunter, could have economic value given the hunting industry. I think one can dispute the harshness of the punishment, but I see no grey area when it comes to the crime.

Thanks,

jack

I agree. No grey area at all. I, too, thought the fine was excessive. I know we are all passionate about this stuff, but after all, these are only misdemeanors.

 

[H20fwler]

I think the restitution fines are more in line with the industry standards.
How much is the cost of a high fenced deer of the same caliber? Or trophy fees on a guided hunt? That’s how they came up with the value on it. I think it should make poachers think twice, I would also like to see trespassers hit harder too the $500 Ohio charges is to low.

As far as the Amish issue I’ve seen both sides, we have lots of Amish in my area and 90% plus are great, like all groups it’s the trespassing poachers that give the rest a black eye.
I’ve got a friend that had bad ones move next door to him and he has had nothing but trouble with them hunting on him non stop shooting everything.
And Ohio has had huge problems with the Amish running fenced deer farms not keeping good records breaking the law and spreading disease to our wild herd just so they can make more money.

 

[ksgobbler]

Here any deer with a 16" inside spread automatically triggers a minimum $5k fine

Then we have the trophy formula.
This formula is defined as: (gross score - 100)² x $2. For example, if you illegally kill a deer with a gross score of 160, the restitution fine would be $7,200.00

 

[roymunson]

And Ohio has had huge problems with the Amish running fenced deer farms not keeping good records breaking the law and spreading disease to our wild herd just so they can make more money.

I work and live about 3 miles as the crow flies from that outfit. To be fair, they've never had CWD spread into a wild deer. And theres a sentiment, right or wrong, that they DNR is being over the top in order to prevent CWD into the wild. I guess i'd rather that than be too lax and have it get into the wild population, but CWD isn't a wild deer issue, today.