Dog sniff test.

[shawnv]

I would like to see multiple dogs with more attempts run. Interesting read through. If you just took this article as gold then cover scent works as well as an ozone machine and the money we spend on sprays and soaps are not doing a whole lot for us.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/artic...-control-products-and-practices-vs-a-drug-dog

 

[John-W-WI]

Lots to read there as you drill down into the tests..... Thanks for sharing.

-John

 

[UP Powers]

very cool.

 

[Fall guy]

Quote:

I would like to see multiple dogs with more attempts run. Interesting read through. If you just took this article as gold then cover scent works as well as an ozone machine and the money we spend on sprays and soaps are not doing a whole lot for us.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/artic...-control-products-and-practices-vs-a-drug-dog

I have had seen some good results with cover scents both hunting or just doing some video. Although I still put stand location #1 based on wind and weather conditions.


First some background on myself. I patented a system for training detection dogs 11 years ago. I primarily worked with explosives dogs. It is currently used by over 800 agencies (military, police, DHS here in US)and 28 countries around world. I also trained multiple tracking dogs during past 25 years. During this time period I worked with some great people and trainers. I also have observed well over 1000 different dogs in training and certification in both tracking and detection work.


When people compare dogs to deer one must keep in mind a deer and a dog are both subject to behavior conditioning and the environment they operate in.

Cover scents can work. Example drugs were being placed inside of box of Tide and dogs would struggle to locate. Solution begin training dog on multiple boxes and quantity of tide and reinforcing behavior once dog learns to isolate that individual odor from the most abundant odor being Tide. Lots of things have been tried but most can be overcome with added training until dog is conditioned to respond correctly to a individual odor accompanied by others. Obviously no deer gets this kind of conditioning he is going to react to his past experience and the most obvious and abundant odor he has been conditioned to.

Environment. Both dogs and deer are subject to environment they operate in and mentally map both odors and visual signs. Example was very common when initially training explosives dog to put a odd ball odor out in parking lot full of cars and have dog respond strongly and alert on new odor. They notice any thing out of place do to prior conditioning in that environment. Have a protection type dog just move your garbage can to new area and watch his first response when leaving house for first time.. Need to stop a deer on trail just scuff up a soft wood branch with knife it will get checked out.

Odor Intensity. Both dog and deer use this to tell direction of a track travel or location of odor source with amazing accuracy. I have watched dogs when training in large open area searches pick up odor from 300 hundred yards plus with good conditions. I have also seen them struggle or even fail during poor conditions such as rising thermos and high temps, dry ground, low humidity or extremely windy conditions.

Odors . Dogs during initial training and testing at Auburn University were shown to respond typically to the two most abundant odor vapor elements presented. I saw this with out question during initial training also. Another good example the most abundant and longest lasting odor the tracking dog uses is the disturbed vegetation.

I mainly use cover scent to get me to and from stand or when I am really pushing edge of scent cone to deer travel. I place a dab of coon urine on each boot before heading out, in another area my go to is fox urine as they are always mingling with deer. I got burnt on that when juvenile fox followed in screamed clearing field on me this past year. My goal is to make cover scent more abundant then human element. It works I have watched deer check my trail and continue on. My scent control is simple, take nothing extra with, clean camo stored in container put on at location, drink green tea on stand and above all wear carbon face mask of some type to, from, and on stand add a dab of cover scent (common for area) to boots. Note your breath is the most abundant odor (loaded with bacteria) and sticks to everything thing do to moisture.

PS
I own a Scent-lok suit because it was on sale and had camo pattern I wanted.
Do I think ozone machines work yes if conditions are perfect such as in blind and not to windy.
Will I own one for hunting no.

 

[shawnv]

Quote:


I have had seen some good results with cover scents both hunting or just doing some video. Although I still put stand location #1 based on wind and weather conditions.


First some background on myself. I patented a system for training detection dogs 11 years ago. I primarily worked with explosives dogs. It is currently used by over 800 agencies (military, police, DHS here in US)and 28 countries around world. I also trained multiple tracking dogs during past 25 years. During this time period I worked with some great people and trainers. I also have observed well over 1000 different dogs in training and certification in both tracking and detection work.


When people compare dogs to deer one must keep in mind a deer and a dog are both subject to behavior conditioning and the environment they operate in.

Cover scents can work. Example drugs were being placed inside of box of Tide and dogs would struggle to locate. Solution begin training dog on multiple boxes and quantity of tide and reinforcing behavior once dog learns to isolate that individual odor from the most abundant odor being Tide. Lots of things have been tried but most can be overcome with added training until dog is conditioned to respond correctly to a individual odor accompanied by others. Obviously no deer gets this kind of conditioning he is going to react to his past experience and the most obvious and abundant odor he has been conditioned to.

Environment. Both dogs and deer are subject to environment they operate in and mentally map both odors and visual signs. Example was very common when initially training explosives dog to put a odd ball odor out in parking lot full of cars and have dog respond strongly and alert on new odor. They notice any thing out of place do to prior conditioning in that environment. Have a protection type dog just move your garbage can to new area and watch his first response when leaving house for first time.. Need to stop a deer on trail just scuff up a soft wood branch with knife it will get checked out.

Odor Intensity. Both dog and deer use this to tell direction of a track travel or location of odor source with amazing accuracy. I have watched dogs when training in large open area searches pick up odor from 300 hundred yards plus with good conditions. I have also seen them struggle or even fail during poor conditions such as rising thermos and high temps, dry ground, low humidity or extremely windy conditions.

Odors . Dogs during initial training and testing at Auburn University were shown to respond typically to the two most abundant odor vapor elements presented. I saw this with out question during initial training also. Another good example the most abundant and longest lasting odor the tracking dog uses is the disturbed vegetation.

I mainly use cover scent to get me to and from stand or when I am really pushing edge of scent cone to deer travel. I place a dab of coon urine on each boot before heading out, in another area my go to is fox urine as they are always mingling with deer. I got burnt on that when juvenile fox followed in screamed clearing field on me this past year. My goal is to make cover scent more abundant then human element. It works I have watched deer check my trail and continue on. My scent control is simple, take nothing extra with, clean camo stored in container put on at location, drink green tea on stand and above all wear carbon face mask of some type to, from, and on stand add a dab of cover scent (common for area) to boots. Note your breath is the most abundant odor (loaded with bacteria) and sticks to everything thing do to moisture.

PS
I own a Scent-lok suit because it was on sale and had camo pattern I wanted.
Do I think ozone machines work yes if conditions are perfect such as in blind and not to windy.
Will I own one for hunting no.

You're right, no getting around #1. Your exact comment about conditioning is a reason why I wonder how long it will take before deer associate ozone machines with danger. I hunt one high pressure farm and anything new is considered dangerous by the mature does and it didn't fool them. I tried it a few times there as a test and on some Iowa public ground and had the same experience so I took the unit back.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I always take a couple apples in my pack so while on stand ( in a tree ) I can eat them and at least for a while my breath hopefully smells of apples. ( We have apples & crab trees all around the camp property ). I also chew teaberry gum - we have wintergreen growing on the forest floor - so that scent is native also. I don't know if it works every time, but I do get deer to approach within 10 yds. of me in archery season.

Great info, Fall Guy. Thanks for posting.

 

[bueller]

I personally don't put much credibility into any of the dog vs deer scent detecting comparisons. These dogs are highly trained in scent detection and once given the command they go to work. They are not just roaming around 24/7 "working" with their nose. Not to mention that I've seen some dogs that are very good at their job, and others that flat out suck. Deer on the other hand are not trained by humans, nor are they following any set of commands. I agree with the idea that anything that smells "different" to the deer could cause them to react either negatively or positively.

 

[Fall guy]

Brownsucks: I always take a couple apples in my pack so while on stand Me too.
bueller: I've seen some dogs that are very good at their job, and others that flat out suck Me too x 10.

 

[Buckly]

I personally don't put much credibility into any of the dog vs deer scent detecting comparisons. These dogs are highly trained in scent detection and once given the command they go to work. They are not just roaming around 24/7 "working" with their nose. Not to mention that I've seen some dogs that are very good at their job, and others that flat out suck. Deer on the other hand are not trained by humans, nor are they following any set of commands. I agree with the idea that anything that smells "different" to the deer could cause them to react either negatively or positively.

And this brings up a question. What makes deer determine human scent is a threat? The vast majority of time humans are of no threat to deer at all, what makes them afraid of us? Is it because it's a human scent or just a new or intense scent to them?

 

[bueller]

And this brings up a question. What makes deer determine human scent is a threat? The vast majority of time humans are of no threat to deer at all, what makes them afraid of us? Is it because it's a human scent or just a new or intense scent to them?

And because of this I believe that deer become a heck of a lot more tolerant of our presence/smell than many think. Once the deer begin getting hunted by humans (September in WI) I'm sure they become less tolerant of human presence/smell. But in my area with small parcels and year round residents on many properties the deer have to be smelling humans everywhere. Does this make them avoid the area and stack up only in areas with no human activity? Certainly not. In fact I feel scent control is less important, especially for me on my own small parcel where the deer smell and see me year round.

 

[John-W-WI]

Great discussion... Fall Guy - great post. Seeing as we are nearly neighbors (as far as the web goes) I need to buy you a burger and a beer some time. It would be fun to hear about your dog experiences.

The last couple of questions seems like we are heading back to the "can deer think and remember stuff" we had a while back. I think the two discussions are closely linked!

-John

 

[Fall guy]

John : Well we are in same county neighbor.... Call me anytime I could get educated on cuttings

With regard to deer getting use to humans no doubt about . For those of you familiar with Eau Claire area I have video of (my brother) between Bus. 53 and back side Princeton valley golf course feeding a mature doe a hot dog bun by hand with her fawn in background. She is very skittish (instinctive behavior) but comes in two times and eats bulk of bun from his hand eventually runs off with fawn. So can deer get conditioned to people yes those that are not hunted and grow up in that environment.

I could classify my property here as urban however just do to fact I am in Chippewa County you can hunt here both bow and gun. My area surrounded by 2 to 5 acre parcels on 3 sides. A number of of them hunt with guns, bows and now crossbows. These deer hear and smell people all the time. I have multiple mature deer use my property and this is not because of any great habitat work. Although I do plant them great food plots for hunting season. The main reason I believe is I never hunt my sanctuary area or disturb it.

I have plenty of hunting hour pictures of deer 2.5 and under. To see 3.5 year old during day are very rare during shooting hours, 4.5 and up they are non event with a few exceptions such as cold front (regardless time of year). Some other weather events can have same effect , repeated storms, high winds during night etc.

I pay attention to Jeff Sturgis material on this it has been spot on for me. I actually gave up on this property assuming they were only nocturnal until Jeff explained to me first hand. So even if you live in urbanized area (that gets hunted) I would bet good money your not get many day pics if any during hunting season of Mature Bucks (provided they exist in your area). Without some weather event or rut happening.

Another thing obvious with mature urban bucks evening is always best its like they come out when all the human noise settles down well after dark and are headed home long before sun comes up. But a front will get them out early in evening but not morning at least that has been the case for this particular property. I assume this is because things get safer later where the opposite could be said of morning. I am sure they move day time in my sanctuary or core areas off my property but last thing I want to do is go in and disturb them.

So to get back on topic I don't believe mature deer in urban area will let you get close or disturb his core bedding area with human scent or activity but a few times. They will hunker down and let you pass but then bail out shortly there after.

PS
I took this pic from my I phone 2 weeks ago just down road from my place a hunkered down mature buck watching cars go by. Late season if cold weather hits by X-Mas can also be great here I would take over rut. I attribute to 2 factors they have to eat more and weather is to cold for most human outdoor activity. In the evening they can show up hour before sunset. However it is extremely tough to hide your odor in late season it stands out big time. I don't care if you vacuum pack yourself you will still need correct breeze or wind.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Fall Guy - Great pic !! They can sure humble us hunters by hiding out in plain sight sometimes. The best example I have knowledge of is what a good buddy told me about a hunt he & his Dad & about 5 others had. They put drives on all day to try and get a big buck that they had seen in some farm wood lots and corn fields. Nothing. At day's end, as they were putting their unloaded guns in their vehicles, one of them happened to look down in a field along the road where they were parked. The big fella came walking out of a 4 ft. drain culvert that passed under the road & into the corn and weed field they had hunted through !!! It had watched them walk right past as it spent the entire day in the culvert. Tough pill to swallow !!!

Thanks for sharing the pic.