Coyote control - let’s talk about a system for controlling predators

[4wanderingeyes]

So are you trying to tell me if I shoot 20 yotes, it won’t have any effect on the deer numbers? If that is what you are implying, I disagree. Sure others will eventually move in, but those 20 won’t be killing more fawns, on my land, or my neighbors.

 

[Native Hunter]

Listen to the people who are telling you to trap them. If you don't want to trap yourself, find a good trapper who knows what he is doing and let him trap them. I would bet if you ask around that you could find a good reputable trapper that would do it. It's the best kind of relationship going - what Dr. Stephen Covey called a "Synergistic Relationship." Both parties get what they want and couldn't have attained without each other! That's even better than a win-win situation.

Don't fall for the widely spread notion that taking them out will never make a difference, because more just move in. You can make a noticeable difference. We have seen it happen here. My dad started letting a guy trap a few years ago and I started letting him come here last year. It is making a heck of a difference. Reconyx trail cameras don't lie and I sometimes run as many as 14 of them. You can believe your eyes. Best wishes.

PS: I always have a gun with me and never skip an opportunity to kill one myself. It's a warm fuzzy feeling I can't describe.

 

[yoderjac]

So are you trying to tell me if I shoot 20 yotes, it won’t have any effect on the deer numbers? If that is what you are implying, I disagree. Sure others will eventually move in, but those 20 won’t be killing more fawns, on my land, or my neighbors.

That is not exactly what I'm trying to say but it is close. Given the science we have today, it does not appear that killing coyotes on a small tract of land has a significant long-term effect on either coyote populations or coyote predation of fawns on that land. Several factors are involved here. There is some evidence that killing some coyotes in the social structure can stimulate pup production. I believe timing of coyote kills can be one factor in which animals are most likely removed. Emigration of coyotes in an expanding population means that when a coyote comes to your land from far away to fill a void left by killing a coyote, that coyote is quickly replace elsewhere. In the east, coyotes are expanding range and wolf DNA is being found in greater proportion in coyotes.

So, there is no clear coyote control strategy, given today's scientific understanding, that an individual killing coyotes on a few hundred acre parcel even making a concerted effort will make a meaningful impact on fawn recruitment.

Remember, everything we do means we are not doing something else. Given the evidence I've seen so far, I believe that we can make some very bad decisions in habitat management that increase fawn predation by coyotes. For example, if one establishes long narrow strips of good fawning habitat rather that larger more square blocks of it, you make fawns much easier prey. If you make habitat decisions that support a broader set of wildlife you make other wildlife an easier target than fawns. Coyotes are not primarily deer predators, however when deer numbers are high and fawn density is high due to habitat, fawns become easy prey. In many places, black bears, kill more fawns than coyotes.

I'm not saying don't shoot them. I'm not saying don't trap them. I'm simply saying, that we don't have a clear control strategy that is based on science that is proven effective at the individual parcel level. We do have good scientific evidence that certain habitat management decisions can negatively or positively impact coyote predation of fawns.

So for now, I personally will focus on habitat management decisions as they relate to coyote predation of deer. That does not mean that if I have an opportunity to shot a coyote I won't take it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[4wanderingeyes]

If you are referring to just long term on a single parcel, I guess I can see the argument. But in general, in the broad scheme of things, if you remove 20 predators, those 20 predators cant kill fawns.

Say you have 100 square miles, and there is 500 coyotes on that 100 square miles, and each coyote kills an average of 10 fawns each year, that is 5000 fawns dead. If us hunters and trappers killed 100 coyotes, leaving 400 coyotes, times 10 average fawn kills a year equals 4000 fawn kills, equals out to 1000 more fawns in that 100 square miles. Now you do this every year, it will have a large impact on deer numbers.

 

[SwampCat]

Scale is a factor with many things. If you are not operating on scale, the best you can do is improve hunting. You are going to have a measureable impact on the herd with any management technique. The only way folks on a small scale can have as significant impact is in a consortium with adjoining land owners.

You may be able to control raccoon populations on 100 acres. To impact a deer herd you need to be operating on a scale of 1,000 or more acres. To control coyotes, we are talking about hundreds of square miles.

Thanks,

Jack

I agree. To “control” coyotes - you are talking about 100’s of square miles. I have talked to our state’s g&f biologists on a number of occasions about removing predators in an attempt to improve fawn recruitment. They provide all kinds of reasons not to do it - it takes a lot of time and effort, it has to be done every year, you dont have enough land to make a difference, it is a long term effort, etc. Trapping predators is just like almost every other wildlife management activity I engage in - it takes time, effort, it is ongoing, etc. What I have found, on my home 300 acres - with a dozen cameras out, I might get a couple of pictures a week of coyotes. Most of my cameras are aimed at food plots or feeding locations. Come fawning season, the number of coyote pictures probably increases three fold. I am not sure if it is a result of new coyotes moving onto my property during fawning season because of my higher deer density, or is it the local coyotes are more frequenting the areas where there are more deer - and more cameras. I tend to believe the latter.

My wife and I make a SxS trip around the place pretty much every day. I check traps on our regular trip around the place - so it adds very little time in my trapping efforts. $200 dollars will buy you enough trapping supplies for eight traps, swivels, everything you need. If taken care of, traps will last a lifetime. One bag of durana clover costs $150. I might catch 2 coyotes - maybe 3 in two weeks. When I do that, my coyote pictures drop dramatically. I dont know how many coyotes use my place - so I dont know if removing two or three coyotes lowers the population enough to reduce the number of pictures or do the dead coyote carcasses make them stay out of that area - probably some of both. But I do know this - a two or three week trapping event, catching two three coyotes makes it very difficult to get a picture of a coyote for a month or two. That is all I want. I like coyotes. I believe they are the first line of defense in feral hog control - but I dont want them eating my fawns. I want a 10% improvement in fawning success. That isnt much. Our statewide average fawn recruitment numbers are .5 fawns per doe. To improve that by 10% means only one extra fawn produced every other year per ten does. I am pretty confident removing two or three coyotes every year results in saving a fawn. That doesnt sound like much - but when you run the numbers over five or six years, it makes a difference. No, I am not trying to wipe out my coyotes and increase fawn recruitment by 120% like some studies have shown is possible. I am just trying to slightly increase fawn recruitment over a number of years in an effort to build the doe population to the point they can produce enough fawns to overcome fawn predation. All of my habitat management activities did nothing to increase my fawn recruitment numbers. I did see a noticeable improvement when I started removing fawn predators and we quit killing does. To be honest, I did the trapping as a last resort. I planted fawning cover, I coverted the pasture areas from fescue to nwsg, I did some hinge cutting, designated sanctuaries we do not go into, and provided year round high protien food sources - and saw no improvement in fawn recruitment. When I do something that doesnt work - I tried something else - and my fawn numbers started increasing.

I am not saying predator removal will work to increase fawn production everywhere. But I would surely never tell anyone not to waste their time with it - especially if I had never laid eyes on their place. I think you have to set realistic goals - and not expect to double your fawn crop in one year. It is a long term effort. It MUST be done immediately preceding fawning season - not during winter trapping season. It might take five years to make a difference. A lot of people are unable to do it effectively because they dont live on their property. Traps have to be run everyday. Just like all management techniques - they arent all effective on every piece of property - but you dont know until you try.

 

[SwampCat]

Jack is exactly right - killing one coyote isnt going to matter in the big picture. He also tends to habitat managment to improve fawn recruitment - and for those of you who dont live on your place - that is about the only option you have - or take a three week trapping vacation in May or hire a trapper. And dont expect predator removal to result in a great improvement overnight. But, by all means, dont ignore predator removal just because someone says it wont be worth your time. Everyone I personally know who attempted some form of predator removal and said it didnt work - tried it for a year - maybe two, expected to see a huge improvement in just a year or two, and did not do it immediately preceding fawning season. You have to be realistic. And I am not going to lie - coyotes can be dang hard to catch.

 

[Catscratch]

If you are referring to just long term on a single parcel, I guess I can see the argument. But in general, in the broad scheme of things, if you remove 20 predators, those 20 predators cant kill fawns.

Say you have 100 square miles, and there is 500 coyotes on that 100 square miles, and each coyote kills an average of 10 fawns each year, that is 5000 fawns dead. If us hunters and trappers killed 100 coyotes, leaving 400 coyotes, times 10 average fawn kills a year equals 4000 fawn kills, equals out to 1000 more fawns in that 100 square miles. Now you do this every year, it will have a large impact on deer numbers.

But, in a couple of yrs you may have 600 yotes on that place as litter numbers increase and neighboring yotes become transient to fill the void. For the last century all data shows that yote populations increase every time they are pressured by control measures. This is why there are seasons and limits on wolves, mountain lions, bears, and bobcats as their populations decline with hunting pressure. The lowly yote continues to increase population and territory through the same control measures are applied. Over and over yotes have proven to respond positively with increased numbers when attacked. Not saying every situation is the same and that a person can't achieve the results they want, but it should be known (or studied) that an half assed attempts may bring the opposite results that is intended. The yote really is crazy good at surviving and populating!

 

[yoderjac]

If you are referring to just long term on a single parcel, I guess I can see the argument. But in general, in the broad scheme of things, if you remove 20 predators, those 20 predators cant kill fawns.

Say you have 100 square miles, and there is 500 coyotes on that 100 square miles, and each coyote kills an average of 10 fawns each year, that is 5000 fawns dead. If us hunters and trappers killed 100 coyotes, leaving 400 coyotes, times 10 average fawn kills a year equals 4000 fawn kills, equals out to 1000 more fawns in that 100 square miles. Now you do this every year, it will have a large impact on deer numbers.

That is a significant oversimplification of a very complex interaction. It makes a lot of assumptions and does not consider the impacts of coyote removal on coyote recruitment. I understand the logic and it is tempting to oversimplify this. We don't make all our decisions based on science and where science is not clear, we just use our best judgment. I certainly understand that in some more extreme situations predator control may be necessary to keep populations from collapsing.

Here is an nice article from MSU Deer Lab on predators: http://msudeerlab.com/predators.asp It is a nice overview. It points out that once can have both a high number of predators and high fawn recruitment where habitat is good.

Let me be clear that I'm not opposed to coyote control at all. I just don't want to be deluded into thinking that as a general practice it will improve fawn recruitment.

Here is my own limited and anecdotal experience with coyotes. From 2006 to 2013 while we had coyotes in our general area they did not use our farm regularly. With wireless game cameras we would get one or two night time pictures a year that may have been a coyote or a large fox. We bought our farm in 2006 and began a large scale food plot program. It was a pine farm in a state with little native food and high deer populations. We focused on improving food and shooting every doe we could. In 2013 we had a mast crop failure and our food plots were great. There is no farming other than pasture for about a 3 mile radius so our food plots were the only game in town. From 2006 to 2013 we could not shoot enough does. Every time we shot a doe and left a gap in the social structure, the following summer when food sources dried up, we would get does immigrating from the general area that would stay.

With that mast crop failure in 2013, deer were forced to use our food plots exposing themselves to our hunters. We doubled our highest female harvest that fall. That winter, coyotes moved in and began using our farm on a regular basis. I was getting multiple pictures both day and night of coyotes. At the same time, the general area had a bout of EHD. We did not experience it at our farm but it reduced the numbers dramatically in the general area. With the failed mast crop, our food plots were decimated by the end of the season. The does that were left were in poor health compared to normal as they entered spring fawning. We had fewer twins the next spring and the coyotes took their toll in fawn predation.

We restricted female harvest to a low number for the next two seasons. The other thing that occurred in 2013 was our first large scale habitat timber project. We clear-cut 20 acres of low quality hardwoods for bedding and thinned about 100 acres of pines. In the following year we applied herbicide to the clear-cuts and then did a controlled burn on both clear-cuts and pines. Over the next few years, there has been a significant increase in our BCC. A lot of herbaceous native foods have popped up in our pines and clear-cuts. Fawning cover improved significantly.

Our deer numbers have slowly and steadily been improving. We use the 24/7/365 wireless cameras with solar panels to track population trends. We use Jan - Apr to estimate survival and Sep to estimate recruitment/immigration. Both have been slowly but steadily rebounding. Survival has rebounded faster then recruitment. We are still a bit below our baseline levels but seem to be at a good place for stability. We no longer restrict female harvest but are not in a position of shooting every female deer we see. We shoot coyote when we see them and tried trapping. The trapper was a novice and didn't have much success. We have only removed a few coyotes and still get regular pictures of them. I am seeing more pictures of fawns and twins this year.

This is just my belief, but here it is. When we were the only game in town for deer for 2013, we drew coyotes to our farm as scavengers of both gut piles and unrecovered deer. With poor fawning habitat, their impact the first year or two was significant on recruitment. As our clearcuts and thinned pines developed understory improving fawning habitat, fawn ceased to be an easy target. We still have coyotes but groundhogs, raccoons, foxes, rabbits, mice, and many other creatures have become easier prey for them than fawns. They still have an impact but much less significant.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

But, in a couple of yrs you may have 600 yotes on that place as litter numbers increase and neighboring yotes become transient to fill the void. For the last century all data shows that yote populations increase every time they are pressured by control measures. This is why there are seasons and limits on wolves, mountain lions, bears, and bobcats as their populations decline with hunting pressure. The lowly yote continues to increase population and territory through the same control measures are applied. Over and over yotes have proven to respond positively with increased numbers when attacked. Not saying every situation is the same and that a person can't achieve the results they want, but it should be known (or studied) that an half assed attempts may bring the opposite results that is intended. The yote really is crazy good at surviving and populating!

If you read the article I provided above, yes, litter numbers might increase after coyote removal, but since the resulting coyote population is younger, not as many females are reproducing - thus the population remains static for the most part. This study was done in the south and the results may not be true in the north or midwest. Every component of your land has to be evaluated. On my property, I feel I am left with two management activities that could possibly improve my land for fawn recruitment. One would be removal of cedar from about forty acres - but I have to pay a $300 per hour mulcher to come in and do it since there is no local market for red cedar. I cant afford that. I have about sixty acres of green ash I could thin. The understory is like a park. Thinning would increase cover. But my ash trees are full of deer in the summer. The open understory combined with shading canopy provides thermal cover with a breeze to keep the deer shaded and cool during the intense heat of our summers. I hate to do away with my summer cover. I intend on implementing a spring and summer supplemental protien feeding program next year. Other than that, I dont know what I could have done to improve my fawn recruitment other than predator removal. Trapping predators, for me, was more a last resort when everything I was doing wasnt making a difference. Since I live on my land, it didnt take much time or effort. $200 on trapping supplies that last ten years was probably the cheapest investment in any management activity I have ever done. And I enjoy trapping. But, again, this is property specific. I have property eight miles away in the same river basin with very poor fawn recruitment - but I dont feel predator removal is warranted because there are plenty of deer. This is not a “do it and it works” or “dont do it because it doesnt work” kind of thing. It is a “try it if your other management activities are not providing the results you desire, and see what happens”.

 

[Catscratch]

This is not a “do it and it works” or “dont do it because it doesnt work” kind of thing. It is a “try it if your other management activities are not providing the results you desire, and see what happens”.

Very well said!!! Educate yourself, form a plan, pay attention to results, and make adjustments when needed.

 

[Baker]

Listen to the people who are telling you to trap them. If you don't want to trap yourself, find a good trapper who knows what he is doing and let him trap them. I would bet if you ask around that you could find a good reputable trapper that would do it. It's the best kind of relationship going - what Dr. Stephen Covey called a "Synergistic Relationship." Both parties get what they want and couldn't have attained without each other! That's even better than a win-win situation.

Don't fall for the widely spread notion that taking them out will never make a difference, because more just move in. You can make a noticeable difference. We have seen it happen here. My dad started letting a guy trap a few years ago and I started letting him come here last year. It is making a heck of a difference. Reconyx trail cameras don't lie and I sometimes run as many as 14 of them. You can believe your eyes. Best wishes.

PS: I always have a gun with me and never skip an opportunity to kill one myself. It's a warm fuzzy feeling I can't describe.

Come on Native, I need you to pull out that description you used in 'the other thread' of the anti predator killer. It was beautiful though I forget now

 

[swat1018]

So are you trying to tell me if I shoot 20 yotes, it won’t have any effect on the deer numbers? If that is what you are implying, I disagree. Sure others will eventually move in, but those 20 won’t be killing more fawns, on my land, or my neighbors.

That's what he's saying, but you don't have to believe it.

 

[Native Hunter]

Come on Native, I need you to pull out that description you used in 'the other thread' of the anti predator killer. It was beautiful though I forget now

Rusty, you need to keep these things written down. I won't live forever and won't always be here to find them for you. I've called them many things over the years, but you must be referring to one of the following:

• Wolf worshiping government hippie heathens
• A bunch of doped up, pill dependent zombies, who need pizza insurance, pet comfort pigs, and software that tells them where and when their lap dogs pooped.

I hope that was what you were trying to remember.

I also posted a study from a reputable source that completely contradicted the other studies everyone was quoting. But, why even bring it up or even care - people are going to believe what they want to and what I can plainly see with my eyes doesn't matter. Live on O.J. Simpson and thanks for the memory Rusty!!!!

 

[wiscwhip]

Native has a pretty good "system" in place to control his yote population....stone cold killa'...I think he calls him "Dad"!

 

[Native Hunter]

Native has a pretty good "system" in place to control his yote population....stone cold killa'...I think he calls him "Dad"!

So true Dale, and the current situation kind of proves my point. A few years ago he just quit deer hunting, and coyotes were the only thing he ever hunted. It made sense to him. He had some big deer on the wall and he didn't want the meat anymore - and he hated the yotes. Back in those days it wasn't unusual for him to kill close to 20 during a year with his rifle.

Recently he has been complaining to me that there aren't enough of them to even hunt anymore. He has only been able to kill a couple the whole year. LOL, he has hunted them to almost extinction around here. When you just keep killing and killing and killing something, it is going to make a difference, even if there are some that move in - when they move in, they get their rear ends hammered as well......

 

[yoderjac]

That's what he's saying, but you don't have to believe it.

True. Read the literature and use your best judgment. It may be different than mine.

 

[swat1018]

So true Dale, and the current situation kind of proves my point. A few years ago he just quit deer hunting, and coyotes were the only thing he ever hunted. It made sense to him. He had some big deer on the wall and he didn't want the meat anymore - and he hated the yotes. Back in those days it wasn't unusual for him to kill close to 20 during a year with his rifle.

Recently he has been complaining to me that there aren't enough of them to even hunt anymore. He has only been able to kill a couple the whole year. LOL, he has hunted them to almost extinction around here. When you just keep killing and killing and killing something, it is going to make a difference, even if there are some that move in - when they move in, they get their rear ends hammered as well......

Impossible!

 

[Baker]

Rusty, you need to keep these things written down. I won't live forever and won't always be here to find them for you. I've called them many things over the years, but you must be referring to one of the following:

• Wolf worshiping government hippie heathens
• A bunch of doped up, pill dependent zombies, who need pizza insurance, pet comfort pigs, and software that tells them where and when their lap dogs pooped.

I hope that was what you were trying to remember.

I also posted a study from a reputable source that completely contradicted the other studies everyone was quoting. But, why even bring it up or even care - people are going to believe what they want to and what I can plainly see with my eyes doesn't matter. Live on O.J. Simpson and thanks for the memory Rusty!!!!

Yes! thats it. I learn much from you. You are like a good therapist. I always thought I was a red neck from La. Between you and Hillary I learned so much more about myself and what I am in such a short period of time. It was dizzying . Perhaps you should develop an acronym...you know like ptsd. Thanks, your research skills are much better than my clerical skills .

 

[Native Hunter]

Yes! thats it. I learn much from you. You are like a good therapist. I always thought I was a red neck from La. Between you and Hillary I learned so much more about myself and what I am in such a short period of time. It was dizzying . Perhaps you should develop an acronym...you know like ptsd. Thanks, your research skills are much better than my clerical skills .

You're welcome. My whole career has been geared around service to others, so glad I could also be of service to you in finding your identity. Take care and watch out for the WWGHH......

 

[cavey]

You'll never make a dent in the population... the dog hunters just in our local area used take out close to 200 yotes a year, and that is just between two groups that I know of... add in incidental hunters taking out those they have random shots at and toss in trappers in general and still, every year, it is the same thing/same number of yotes --- year after year. Some of the same houndsmen that run this area hunt around gull lake in your neck of the woods and I hunt a bit over by Radisson and Winter just below the flowage to the east of you. We have more of a wolf issue if you would like to call it that. Im suprised its not more of the same for you but maybe your in the SW corner of the county along 53 - more ag land. And then of course toss in all the bears we have -- which are really good at killing fawns; lots of predators.

Anyways, ironically, the best way for you to see a reduction in yotes is to have an up swing in the wolf population. They are THEE best way to control coyotes.

We always had stable numbers of deer up there till the DNR liberalized the kill tags with earn a buck and bonus tags. The legacy of that slaughter is what killed the deer population off up north - toss in some harsh winters and the joy of not seeing deer is all that we were left with for years (numbers are at least coming up now). Listen to the Deer Hunters Round-up and its a barley pop induced frenzy of "too many of dozz bare and wulfs upt dare ya know" and "dem yotes too - ya ya betcha!". If you listen to 98Q Country during deer hunting you know what Im talking about. You can shoot em, stab'em, blow them up and they will just keep coming back. They make cool pelts and toilet seat covers and Im not against shooting or trapping them but yoderjac has some proven thoughts that are proving to have more and more credence. Hopefully we are moving out of the stone age of wildlife management and driving out the politics of how the WIDNR has been run, I kind of doubt the later but there is hope.

Coyotes (and interestingly enough the possibility of hybid's) are here to stay and will cycle in numbers, tossing lead at them will make you feel better, I doubt and kind of know that it will not make much of a long term difference. BUT look at the bright side.... its another fine hunting opportunity we have in the State - dig out your squeal call and get some! Taking the time to learn how to trap them is another fun way of spending time in the woods.... poisoning them - well that's a little uncool and may get you a free ticket to losing some of those rights Im sure you dearly love.