Clover plots. Weed control (Weeds and cereal rye).

[eclipseman]

All,
I frost seeded 2 clover plots in March. They are finally starting to come up which is the good news! The bad news is some areas have weeds AND one plot I frost seeded into was cereal rye. I had no idea cereal rye was considered a biannual/perennial type and would come back from last fall here in NY, when I planted it (Stupid me). Needless to say it is about 1 foot tall now and the deer are no longer eating it. I Can see the clover down low though and the clover is about 1-2 inches tall at the moment. I'm wondering if I should cut the cereal rye to like 6 inches so the clover can get more sun light since the rye is relatively thick (looks like a hay field out there)? Also, what do you all use as far as chemicals for weeds and when should I spray since the clover is young (I do not want to chance hurting the clover). Thanks!

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I just mow mine to about 6" two times a year. The clover competes pretty well with weeds.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I let my winter rye grow to about 4 feet tall, then let it fall on its own, it makes a good cover, and it keeps the heat from the sun from killing the young clover. It also will help keep moisture, and morning dew on the ground longer. The clover never seemed to mind, and it kept other weeds at bay.

 

[yoderjac]

All,
I frost seeded 2 clover plots in March. They are finally starting to come up which is the good news! The bad news is some areas have weeds AND one plot I frost seeded into was cereal rye. I had no idea cereal rye was considered a biannual/perennial type and would come back from last fall here in NY, when I planted it (Stupid me). Needless to say it is about 1 foot tall now and the deer are no longer eating it. I Can see the clover down low though and the clover is about 1-2 inches tall at the moment. I'm wondering if I should cut the cereal rye to like 6 inches so the clover can get more sun light since the rye is relatively thick (looks like a hay field out there)? Also, what do you all use as far as chemicals for weeds and when should I spray since the clover is young (I do not want to chance hurting the clover). Thanks!

Winter Rye is your friend! The best practice for minimizing weeds in clover is to plant it in the fall with a Winter Rye nurse crop. Winter rye is the fall attractant and the clover won't do much more than germinate. The following spring, both the WR and clover will take off. Winter Rye has a chemical effect to combat weeds and also takes up space that weeds would otherwise use. Each time the WR gets about a foot or so, mow it back to 6"-8". Don't spray to kill it. WR becomes tough in the spring and deer won't use it for long in the spring, but that is not its purpose here. Mowing will release the clover. Release means it will allow it to get enough sunlight. Perennial Clover is slow to establish. It spends that first spring putting down a good root system. The WR is keeping the weeds at bay until this is accomplished. Eventually this summer, the WR will die on its own and by then, the clover will be ready to take off. By fall you will have a nice plot.

Frost seeding perennial clover is better than spring planting it, but it gets the best jump on weeds when planted in the fall with a WR nurse crop.

If you have more weeds than WR in the plot, you will probably spend more money and time trying to control weeds with herbicides over the life of the plot than you would starting over in the fall. I would mow this spring and watch. Don't worry what it looks like now or this summer. See what happens when the temperatures cool down in the fall and you get some fall rain. If you don't like it, you can always replant in the fall.

By the way, I have become much more weed tolerant over the years. Deer don't need lush monocultures. Many of the broadleaf weeds are more attractive and nutritious to deer than the crops we plant. Having said that, there are some weeds that are clearly problematic, but for the most part they are not an issue for clover plots. I try to start with best practices for a clean plot and then let nature take its course.

Thanks,

jack

 

[eclipseman]

thanks all. The weeds in the one plot are not bad at all. Some grasses growing in, so maybe ill get some grass killer for that. Any recommendation there? As far as the cereal rye goes thanks for the info! Ill just mow it down to 6-8 inches every now and then until the clover takes hold and then ill mow whenever the clover needs it unless it is extremely hot and dry of course. Thanks again!

 

[yoderjac]

thanks all. The weeds in the one plot are not bad at all. Some grasses growing in, so maybe ill get some grass killer for that. Any recommendation there? As far as the cereal rye goes thanks for the info! Ill just mow it down to 6-8 inches every now and then until the clover takes hold and then ill mow whenever the clover needs it unless it is extremely hot and dry of course. Thanks again!

You may do more harm than good spraying for grasses because it will also kill the WR which is benefitting the clover. It you have very little WR in the plot and lots of grass, you can use clethodim or poast. I prefer Clethodim. Don't waste your money on the high cost BOB versions. Check prices at Keystone Pest Solutions and see what you can buy them for at your local coop. Brand names for Cleth include Arrow and Select. Ignore brand names and check the active ingredient.

As for mowing height and timing, it depends on the clover variety you planted and conditions. For Ladino clover I generally won't mow under 8". For Durana, I'll mow to 6". I try not to mow until rain is in the forecast. Like you say, if it is hot and dry, the WR shading the clover is beneficial and mowing can stress the clover.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[eclipseman]

You may do more harm than good spraying for grasses because it will also kill the WR which is benefitting the clover. It you have very little WR in the plot and lots of grass, you can use clethodim or poast. I prefer Clethodim. Don't waste your money on the high cost BOB versions. Check prices at Keystone Pest Solutions and see what you can buy them for at your local coop. Brand names for Cleth include Arrow and Select. Ignore brand names and check the active ingredient.

As for mowing height and timing, it depends on the clover variety you planted and conditions. For Ladino clover I generally won't mow under 8". For Durana, I'll mow to 6". I try not to mow until rain is in the forecast. Like you say, if it is hot and dry, the WR shading the clover is beneficial and mowing can stress the clover.

Best of luck,

Jack

The winter rye plot actually has no weeds in it. The back plot I have has no winter rye(it was a brassica plot from last season). That plot is the one growing some grasses in spots. It is mostly ladino with some red clover mixed in so I’ll mow no lower than 8 inches then.

 

[yoderjac]

The winter rye plot actually has no weeds in it. The back plot I have has no winter rye(it was a brassica plot from last season). That plot is the one growing some grasses in spots. It is mostly ladino with some red clover mixed in so I’ll mow no lower than 8 inches then.

That makes sense.

 

[eclipseman]

You may do more harm than good spraying for grasses because it will also kill the WR which is benefitting the clover. It you have very little WR in the plot and lots of grass, you can use clethodim or poast. I prefer Clethodim. Don't waste your money on the high cost BOB versions. Check prices at Keystone Pest Solutions and see what you can buy them for at your local coop. Brand names for Cleth include Arrow and Select. Ignore brand names and check the active ingredient.

As for mowing height and timing, it depends on the clover variety you planted and conditions. For Ladino clover I generally won't mow under 8". For Durana, I'll mow to 6". I try not to mow until rain is in the forecast. Like you say, if it is hot and dry, the WR shading the clover is beneficial and mowing can stress the clover.

Best of luck,

Jack

I just went out to the old brassica plot that I threw clover. It is coming in spotty. There are areas where the clover is a couple inches tall and rather thick while other areas are dirt but I see what appears to be small clover coming in but honestly hard to tell as they are recently germinated and could also be weeds? In those areas there are some grasses and broadleaf things coming in tall as well and I'm afraid they could end up taking over before the clover has a chance. Should I hit these with clethodim and 24db or just let them go?

 

[yoderjac]

I just went out to the old brassica plot that I threw clover. It is coming in spotty. There are areas where the clover is a couple inches tall and rather thick while other areas are dirt but I see what appears to be small clover coming in but honestly hard to tell as they are recently germinated and could also be weeds? In those areas there are some grasses and broadleaf things coming in tall as well and I'm afraid they could end up taking over before the clover has a chance. Should I hit these with clethodim and 24db or just let them go?

Cleth won't hurt the clover, but I'd skip the 24D unless you have a specific problematic weed. Many broadleaf "weeds" are preferred by deer and more nutritious than the many of the crops we plant. Most broadleaf weeds can be controlled by mowing. If you think there are areas that are barren, you can spot broadcast clover into them right before a rain. I presume the clover you threw into the brassica plot was a perennial clover. You might want to over seed the bare areas with an annual or short lived clover like Crimson or Medium Red. They tend to germinate and take off faster than perennial clovers.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[eclipseman]

Cleth won't hurt the clover, but I'd skip the 24D unless you have a specific problematic weed. Many broadleaf "weeds" are preferred by deer and more nutritious than the many of the crops we plant. Most broadleaf weeds can be controlled by mowing. If you think there are areas that are barren, you can spot broadcast clover into them right before a rain. I presume the clover you threw into the brassica plot was a perennial clover. You might want to over seed the bare areas with an annual or short lived clover like Crimson or Medium Red. They tend to germinate and take off faster than perennial clovers.

Best of luck,

Jack

Thanks for the info. I planted a whitetail institute "Imperial Clover" which I believe is ladino, durana, berseem, clover mix or something like that. I used that on half the plot while using straight ladino I purchased from the local coop on the other half to see if the deer favor one side or the other. The parts that "appear" bare...have what look like tiny clovers sprouting and are simply slower to grow in those areas but I am honestly not sure. They could be weeds as well. 1 week more of growth should allow me to confirm what they really are (clover versus a weed).

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the info. I planted a whitetail institute "Imperial Clover" which I believe is ladino, durana, berseem, clover mix or something like that. I used that on half the plot while using straight ladino I purchased from the local coop on the other half to see if the deer favor one side or the other. The parts that "appear" bare...have what look like tiny clovers sprouting and are simply slower to grow in those areas but I am honestly not sure. They could be weeds as well. 1 week more of growth should allow me to confirm what they really are (clover versus a weed).

WI Imperial Clover is a lot of inexpensive annual berseem along with a little of WI's licensed improved varieties. Very expensive on a per acre basis for seed. Probably doesn't matter on small plots. I don't believe it has ladino or Durana but check the seed tag to be sure. WI's improved clovers are as good as any of the improved clovers. The only downside is that they don't sell them except in a mix with the inexpensive Berseem. If you subtract out the Berseem the cost you pay for the improved clover is very high.

Best of luck!

Jack

 

[eclipseman]

WI Imperial Clover is a lot of inexpensive annual berseem along with a little of WI's licensed improved varieties. Very expensive on a per acre basis for seed. Probably doesn't matter on small plots. I don't believe it has ladino or Durana but check the seed tag to be sure. WI's improved clovers are as good as any of the improved clovers. The only downside is that they don't sell them except in a mix with the inexpensive Berseem. If you subtract out the Berseem the cost you pay for the improved clover is very high.

Best of luck!

Jack

Just read the seed label. Here is the break down for your reference:
32% Alex Berseem
11.2% Insight ladino
11.1% WT-170 ladino
10.6% WT-171 ladino
34% Rainbond coating

I got the seed at a pretty good discount and only purchased 2 acres worth so not such a big deal (granted you are paying for the rainbond as ~35% of the product which likely does not do much). I did the month once and I think it came out to being about 15$ more than had I gone to our local coop and tried to mix it myself with their seed for the 2 acres. I'm in NY and the local coops charge much more than coops in the farm belts. Anyways, if you look at just the seed alone, then the different ladino's make up about half the seed mix so I'm not going to cry about it.

What is an "Improved" clover and where could I purchase it outside of whitetail institute?

 

[yoderjac]

Yep, over 1/2 the bag is coating an inexpensive annual berseem so double the cost/pound. Insight is an improved ladino available from a variety of sources. The WT-170 and WT-170 are exclusive to WI.

Durana is an improved clover that is persistent and drought tolerant. It is kind of a BOB seed as well exclusive to Pennington. It is a bit more expensive than common ladino. I pay about $5/lb but for me the persistence and drought tolerance are worth it. If you figure what you are paying on a per lb basis for the WT-170 and WT-171, durana is much less expensive. LA-S1 is another improved clover. Insight is an improved clover you can buy. Kopa II, Legacy,...There are others.

Keep in mind, if you are only planting a couple plots for attraction, BOB seed may be a good fit. For those trying to do QDM at scale would go broke trying to plant BOB seed like WI.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tap]

Cleth won't hurt the clover, but I'd skip the 24D unless you have a specific problematic weed. Many broadleaf "weeds" are preferred by deer and more nutritious than the many of the crops we plant. Most broadleaf weeds can be controlled by mowing. If you think there are areas that are barren, you can spot broadcast clover into them right before a rain. I presume the clover you threw into the brassica plot was a perennial clover. You might want to over seed the bare areas with an annual or short lived clover like Crimson or Medium Red. They tend to germinate and take off faster than perennial clovers.

Best of luck,

Jack

The cleth won't hurt the clover but I've heard that crop oil (surfactant is required with cleth) may burn young clover. I can't say for sure because I've always used a non ionic surfactant with all my herbicides. I could be wrong, but I believe that crop oil may help the cleth better than a non ionic surfactant. I have no experience with crop oil, although I did just get the 1st gallon I've ever bought.
Jack or others...is crop oil preferred over non ionic for cleth?

 

[yoderjac]

You can use a non ionic surfactant which will provide less stress than crop oil.

 

[Tap]

You can use a non ionic surfactant which will provide less stress than crop oil.

Why do people use crop oil instead?
I started wondering if oil worked better. No?

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[yoderjac]

Why do people use crop oil instead?
I started wondering if oil worked better. No?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

In my experience crop oil adds more stress to plants than the non-ionic. More stress is good if the plant is a weed and not so good if the plant is your target crop. In general, herbicides stress plants. They generally stress target plants more than the crop; thus advantaging the crop in relative terms. I would not spray a crop that is stressed by other means. For example, I would not intentionally spray clover it had been mowed and we had a dry spell on the horizon even if clover was listed as a crop for that herbicide.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

I have planted imperial whitetail 8 years ago - one time. The stand is still there. It is not the most solid stand in the world. I don't mow or spray it. It is largely overcome with Johnson grass, now. It is the only clover I have ever planted that withstands extended periods of inundation. It was underwater once, two feet deep - for 60 days - and came back. It used to be big and lush - 15" tall. Now it is not so lush and five inches tall. I would guess only one of the several varieties has been able to persist. I don't plant it anymore. I now mostly plant durana - which is about $2 per pound cheaper than Imperial Whitetail I think.

 

[yoderjac]

I have planted imperial whitetail 8 years ago - one time. The stand is still there. It is not the most solid stand in the world. I don't mow or spray it. It is largely overcome with Johnson grass, now. It is the only clover I have ever planted that withstands extended periods of inundation. It was underwater once, two feet deep - for 60 days - and came back. It used to be big and lush - 15" tall. Now it is not so lush and five inches tall. I would guess only one of the several varieties has been able to persist. I don't plant it anymore. I now mostly plant durana - which is about $2 per pound cheaper than Imperial Whitetail I think.

The problem is that there is not such clover as "Imperial Whitetail". It is a brand name, not a variety. When you are dealing with brand names, the contents of the bag can change from year to year. I'm not sure how frequently WI changes their mix but some companies change it often and quite a bit. Someone previously in this thread posted the contents of the bag from the seed tag they year they planted it.

Durana, WT-170 and WT-171 are all improved clovers. You can't just look at the price per/lb of a brand and compare it to the price per pound of a variety. Imperial Whitetail (assuming the mix in the year the seed tag info above), is 33% improved clovers. The uncoated Durana I've been buying at $5/lb is ~100% improved clovers. So, when you compare prices you need to take that into account. You are saving much more than $2/lb with Durana.

Having said that, Durana is more expensive than common Ladino. So, what it really boils down to is whether the specific characteristics of a particular improved clover variety is worth the premium you are paying for it. For me, the drought tolerance and persistence of the Durana makes it worth the premium over common Ladino. In wet summers, durana does not go dormant at all for me. Even in dry summers in my area, Durana only goes dormant for a few weeks. Ladino went dormant for much of my summer in dry years and never stayed green all summer in wet years like Durana. I get significantly more years out of a durana plot. Durana is slower to establish than Ladino so care is needed in establishing it weed free as a starting point.

There may be folks who find the improved characteristics of WT-170 and WT-171 worth the premium. I have not seen any indication the benefits of them are worth the very high premium one must pay for them so I have not tried them. If WI would sell them directly outside a mix and the prices was in the ball park of Durana, I'd give them a try. The way they are currently sold, they are not worth consideration for my program.

Thanks,

Jack