Cedar thicket

[Telemark]

They pop up like weeds here (red cedar), as soon as a pasture or old homestead is left idle or roadside not mowed they seem to just appear.

Same in Montgomery county. I can't stand them. I killed about 20 last year to protect the apple trees I planted.

 

[sandbur]

I was going to suggest the same thing with cutting trails (wide trails by removing lines of trees and letting sunlight hit the ground again). I think eastern red cedar actually neutralizes soil instead of making it acidic. Nothing grows under them because they are excessive water users and very shady. My memory may be wrong on that though...

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The OP may have ground that is somewhat adverse to growing other plants & trees, that's probably why the ceders have succeeded. I have red cedars and grass & weeds do grow under them.

I would open up a small areas to light in and test growing switch grass which could make a good bedding area. Also try planting some shrubs with tubes or cages to see if they survive.

I like Sandburs idea of cutting some trails also.

Either way it would be good to know if the soil can sustain anything else before clear cutting.

Where I have cut cedars, the soil does a great job of growing buckthorn. There is a bit of scattered big bluestem.


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[Native Hunter]

Thin a young cedar stand enough so that the sunlight continues to hit the lower limbs of the trees you leave to grow. You can mow between them once a year. You will eventually have the most incredible conifer bedding cover available, and it can be maintained with little effort if you have a bushhog. Mow each spring and by fall the spaces you mow will be filled with weeds and forbs between the cedars.

The OP's cedar thicket is too far gone for that. The lower limbs are already dead. That's what happens to a cedar thicket when no one intervenes.

 

[Tree Spud]

Thin a young cedar stand enough so that the sunlight continues to hit the lower limbs of the trees you leave to grow. You can mow between them once a year. You will eventually have the most incredible conifer bedding cover available, and it can be maintained with little effort if you have a bushhog. Mow each spring and by fall the spaces you mow will be filled with weeds and forbs between the cedars.

The OP's cedar thicket is too far gone for that. The lower limbs are already dead. That's what happens to a cedar thicket when no one intervenes.

I would disagree ... you can loop those lower branches off trail side and create nice bedding pockets. You can create trails to other bedding areas.

To his original question Native ... if he clear cuts, what would you recommend?

 

[Native Hunter]

I would disagree ... you can loop those lower branches off trail side and create nice bedding pockets. You can create trails to other bedding areas.

To his original question Native ... if he clear cuts, what would you recommend?

What do I recommend? I recommend he try to find someone like my uncle. He is clearing out such a mess for one of the neighbors right now. It's a place just like the OP describes, and my uncles is clearing it out for the firewood. He enjoys burning cedar, and the neighbor wants it cleaned out - that's called win-win or maybe even Synergy.

Make no doubt about it - the OP has a mess to contend with. Lot's of stuff will just eventually rot but cedar won't. You can either push it with a dozer, burn it or find someone like I mentioned above.

For the regeneration question - stuff will start growing back fairly quick. The particular land will dictate what comes back. In my area you would see a flush of weeds like marestail, Pilewort, etc. pretty fast - followed by briers and young cedars. Cut the stumps close enough and get it to where you can mow, and you can create a great bedding area like I described in my first post. Otherwise, regardless of what he does, he will eventually end up another useless cedar thicket that has an open and dead understory.

You must understand that at some places (sounds like he has one) cedars will dominate and the hardwoods will not be able to outdistance them. In places like that, you end up with a monoculture of cedar that dies at the bottom and stays green at the top. The understory is an open and dead mess. This is not uncommon at places in KY. In fact, I've done a lot of work in the OP's area of the state and what he has described is very common.

One thing you can count on - What he cuts will lay there for decades and not rot if it isn't cleared out. It will be a perfect home for bunnies but worth very little for deer.

 

[Bill]

Not to OP's ? But I do have "one" good use for cedars that lay there for years that I like. I cut a bunch on the edge of a field to dictate where deer can enter it. In that case I'm happy they will last decades. Less work for me keeping up my blockade.

 

[sandbur]

I would disagree ... you can loop those lower branches off trail side and create nice bedding pockets. You can create trails to other bedding areas.

To his original question Native ... if he clear cuts, what would you recommend?

What do I recommend? I recommend he try to find someone like my uncle. He is clearing out such a mess for one of the neighbors right now. It's a place just like the OP describes, and my uncles is clearing it out for the firewood. He enjoys burning cedar, and the neighbor wants it cleaned out - that's called win-win or maybe even Synergy.

Make no doubt about it - the OP has a mess to contend with. Lot's of stuff will just eventually rot but cedar won't. You can either push it with a dozer, burn it or find someone like I mentioned above.

For the regeneration question - stuff will start growing back fairly quick. The particular land will dictate what comes back. In my area you would see a flush of weeds like marestail, Pilewort, etc. pretty fast - followed by briers and young cedars. Cut the stumps close enough and get it to where you can mow, and you can create a great bedding area like I described in my first post. Otherwise, regardless of what he does, he will eventually end up another useless cedar thicket that has an open and dead understory.

You must understand that at some places (sounds like he has one) cedars will dominate and the hardwoods will not be able to outdistance them. In places like that, you end up with a monoculture of cedar that dies at the bottom and stays green at the top. The understory is an open and dead mess. This is not uncommon at places in KY. In fact, I've done a lot of work in the OP's area of the state and what he has described is very common.

One thing you can count on - What he cuts will lay there for decades and not rot if it isn't cleared out. It will be a perfect home for bunnies but worth very little for deer.

When you have two foot of snow and a strong NW wind, your deer will appreciate the closed canopy red cedar woods.

It acts much like a white cedar swamp in the north woods.


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[H20fwler]

Big ones cut make good fence posts or can be split/sawed for making blue bird boxes. Piles of them are great bunny cover too...because of CAR I don't let any grow on my places and keep them out of the road ditches along the road to the farms if I can. There are much better conifers for me to have on the property it's just a shame none of them seem to occur naturally in my area.

 

[buckdeer1]

I am planning on moving as many more cedars this winter as I can.I wish I had a tree spade then I could get something done.I have a friend with one that cuts me a really good deal.Main problem is not being able to find movable trees close to my property.Unless you cut every cedar within a couple miles of an apple tree it will be easier to plant FB resistant trees

 

[bwoods11]

I have a block of cedars (40+ acres) that is impenetrable. Previous owner made some trails, clearings, etc...

We need to do more. Bucks like the nasty bedding though.

 

[Catscratch]

I would be hard pressed to even think about removing this habitat. Its widely used on my place and with just a little management creates good variety of cover. Everybody has different experiences though and my place may get different results than others.

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[ksgobbler]

I would be hard pressed to even think about removing this habitat. Its widely used on my place and with just a little management creates good variety of cover. Everybody has different experiences though and my place may get different results than others.

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That looks like a wildfire in waiting.

 

[IkemanTx]

Texas and Oklahoma are trying hard to eradicate them, and just can’t keep up.
The removal of fire from the prairies and oak savannas has allowed Redberry and Ash Juniper to explode in both range and population densities. The very slow growing shrubs and trees just can’t compete. The junipers can top out over our blackjack oaks and post oaks, especially on rocky slope sides.

I really like what Dr grant woods did with his cedar thickets. Cut, let lay for a season or two, controlled burn through the carcasses. Definitely wait until all the leaves drop, though, running a fire through with leaves still hanging could be impossibly to control!


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[Catscratch]

^^^ Super easy to kill them here. A controlled burn will clear small ones in a pasture very quickly and big ones don't come back after being cut. Once a pasture gets out of hand is when it becomes an issue and dangerous.

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[ksgobbler]

OSU estimates a 12" cedar can use 42 gallons of water per day. After our large wildfires in 2016 and 2017 they had streams that hadnt run in 2 decades that had water in them.

 

[blueKYstream]

It's typically the first to grow here in KY when a trees are cut, except perhaps russian autumn olive and honeysuckle that are a big issue with invading areas. Having a mix of evergreen, hardwoods, etc. seems to me to be the best recipe. They have their place for sure. The neighbors have a higher concentration of red cedar. They seem to bed there more often even though there's thick areas on my place. As the season goes on, I see them feeding on my property and searching for does.

 

[Soggy McBottom]

I would be hard pressed to even think about removing this habitat. Its widely used on my place and with just a little management creates good variety of cover. Everybody has different experiences though and my place may get different results than others.

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Your right everyones experience is different, but from what I can tell from the pics this is not a monoculture. Looking at all the leaves on the ground it seems you have plenty of oaks in the area. It also looks like your getting plenty of sun to the ground.

 

[Catscratch]

I would be hard pressed to even think about removing this habitat. Its widely used on my place and with just a little management creates good variety of cover. Everybody has different experiences though and my place may get different results than others.

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Your right everyones experience is different, but from what I can tell from the pics this is not a monoculture. Looking at all the leaves on the ground it seems you have plenty of oaks in the area. It also looks like your getting plenty of sun to the ground.

I took pics from each side of the thicket as well as from inside. Pics 6 and 7 are of the interior... which is very much a monoculture.

My point in posting the edge of the thicket pics was to show examples of how it can be managed. This particular thicket butt's up to oaks on one side, hackberry on another side, and pasture on the other two sides. There are lanes and pockets cut into it which allows light to the ground in spots... these spots are the pics that have grass in them.

There are cedars scattered throughout the place, but out of the entire property this is the only spot they've been allowed to make a monoculture. It's a major doe bedding area, the best place to find rubs, and a hub for rut activity.

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[roymunson]

We don't have them here. But that looks like a bedding/deer holding juggernaut.

I know some of you hate them, but my instinct is to think that looks awesome.

 

[Tree Spud]

Your right everyones experience is different, but from what I can tell from the pics this is not a monoculture. Looking at all the leaves on the ground it seems you have plenty of oaks in the area. It also looks like your getting plenty of sun to the ground.

Soggy ... just curious, have you done any camera monitoring of this area to see what type of deer activity there might be?