Can rye lose palatability in the fall?

[SD51555]

I've seen rye go both ways for me.

The first time I ever planted it, I planted about 4 months before a growth-stopping frost. I had a barley/buckwheat/cowpea plot I had tried. The deer quickly squashed the cowpeas, the turkeys took care of the buckwheat, and the barley was headed out by June 30th. I didn't want the barley to set viable seed, so I threw my rye in and mowed the barley down onto it. That year, the rye was the only thing that pulled deer attention in mid November. Everything else was gone.

Fast forward a few years, and I cut open about 3/4 acre of new plot spaces. Planted the whole thing to rye/soybeans and fertilized heavily. The rye grew great and the deer used it for a while, but they left for wintering grounds when it was time to leave. I had nearly all that rye left untouched and under only a few inches of fluffy powder snow when they bailed out. I had ran out of rye when spreading, and so I did the last little bit with oats, and that's when I saw the power of oats vs rye. Once they gobbled up the beans, they wouldn't come out of the patch of oats.

 

[roymunson]

I think I have the same issue. I planted oats too early. They're 12-15" tall and I'm afraid they're getting unpalatable. Guess we'll see.

 

[Catscratch]

I recall Paul had a great thread comparing WR to WW on the QDMA forum. It was one I wish I had saved here.

One of the big advantages I've found with WR over WW is how well it grows in less than optimal pH and fertility. As I've been slowly improving the health of my soil over the years minimizing tillage and smart mix/rotations. As nutrient cycling has improved, I have not used commercial fertilizer in the last few years and I have not seen a drop-off in production or deer use. I find that it germinates significantly better than WW when surface broadcast on my soil. They may not be true in all soil types. Like buckwheat, it germinates in my truck bed. Winter Rye seems to both germinate and grow at lower temperatures than WW. That may not matter in all areas, but in my zone, we often get enough warm days during winter for the WR to begin growing again and become an important food source. I say "seems" because I have not seen this in the literature (not that I've looked for it). WR is certainly more cold hardy than WW for the folks that live far north.

Those are just a few things I recall that differentiates them beyond you you've already pointed out.

Thanks,

Jack

This is probably the post from Paul that you are thinking of:
"Rye and triticale would be my favorites for fall and winter feed. Rye is cheap but triticale (a cross between wheat and rye) is a leafier version with the attributes of both.

Cereal rye is always my first choice over wheat or any other grain because it is higher in protein, requires no fertilizer, will grow on low PH soils, has alleopathic chemicals that discourage weeds, is a nitrogen scavenger and a root system that breaks up soil hardpan and improves soil.

Make sure you ask for RYE not ryegrass seed! Rye seed is around $10-12 per bag.

Wheat works fine but doesn't have the "weed inhibitor" abilities of rye which affects next springs food plot, whatever it might be. Wheat sucks up nitrogen and has none of the soil building attributes that rye has. Wheat is lower in protein so unless it's all you can find, DON'T plant it!

Oats work well also but have a limited time frame because of frost. An early frost means it may be long dead well before the 1st of November. I use regular oats which are about $10-12 a bag versus "brand name" oats which cost considerably more and the deer mow them!

Rye and tricticale seeding rates can be from 80-100# per acre

Wheat 90-120#

Oats 80-120#"

 

[birdog]

What's the broadcast seeding rate for WR in established clover/alfalfa/chicory mix? Is it still 80-100# acre?

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Every fall I toss 50 pounds of winter rye and 50 pounds of oats, and 4 pounds of clover into most of my plots. The oats draw them in, until the temps drop, then the winter rye feed them until the snow gets to deep, then in the spring the clover and winter rye feed them until the winter rys gets 6 feet tall, then the clover feeds them while the 6 foot tall winter rye is cover. I use to use winter wheat, but it wouldnt winter well if we had cold with not much snow cover.

 

[birdog]

I do the same thing minus the oats. I think I have been going too light at just #50 acre of WR. It looks like 100# total acre for serial grains regardless of the mix?

 

[yoderjac]

This is probably the post from Paul that you are thinking of:
"Rye and triticale would be my favorites for fall and winter feed. Rye is cheap but triticale (a cross between wheat and rye) is a leafier version with the attributes of both.

Cereal rye is always my first choice over wheat or any other grain because it is higher in protein, requires no fertilizer, will grow on low PH soils, has alleopathic chemicals that discourage weeds, is a nitrogen scavenger and a root system that breaks up soil hardpan and improves soil.

Make sure you ask for RYE not ryegrass seed! Rye seed is around $10-12 per bag.

Wheat works fine but doesn't have the "weed inhibitor" abilities of rye which affects next springs food plot, whatever it might be. Wheat sucks up nitrogen and has none of the soil building attributes that rye has. Wheat is lower in protein so unless it's all you can find, DON'T plant it!

Oats work well also but have a limited time frame because of frost. An early frost means it may be long dead well before the 1st of November. I use regular oats which are about $10-12 a bag versus "brand name" oats which cost considerably more and the deer mow them!

Rye and tricticale seeding rates can be from 80-100# per acre

Wheat 90-120#

Oats 80-120#"

It wasn't a post, it was an entire and very long thread where he discussed WR vs WW. There was a lot of push-back from WW advocates. It was older and back before WR as a cover crop was popular. There was a lot of great point and counter point in that thread.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

What's the broadcast seeding rate for WR in established clover/alfalfa/chicory mix? Is it still 80-100# acre?

I'd say that is a good starting point, but it all depends on your soils, weather, and planting technique. With my soils, if I'm planting a slow to establish clover like Durana and plan to mow as needed to release the Durana gradually, I'll go heavy and 100 lbs/ac. If I were planting a faster to establish clover like Patriot White, I'd probably go lighter like 80 lbs per acre. If I did not have time to mow to release clover in the spring, I may go as light at 50 lbs/ac and I might use a reseeding annual clover like Crimson. If I use a cultipacker to press the WR into the ground, I'd go lighter because I get better germination rates with my soil.

You've just got to see what works for your particular situation, but 80-100 lbs/ac is a good place to start.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Iowa_Dave]

Every fall I toss 50 pounds of winter rye and 50 pounds of oats, and 4 pounds of clover into most of my plots. The oats draw them in, until the temps drop, then the winter rye feed them until the snow gets to deep, then in the spring the clover and winter rye feed them until the winter rys gets 6 feet tall, then the clover feeds them while the 6 foot tall winter rye is cover. I use to use winter wheat, but it wouldnt winter well if we had cold with not much snow cover.

This. ^^ I would add that on my farm in Southern Iowa I had(have) heavy clay soils. After years of using the above rotation(I also usually sprinkle in some peas in the fall) I often leave the rye until about July and then mow it, I have greatly improved the tilth of the soil in those areas. It isn't just greasy(when wet), hard(when dry) clay now...it actually is fairly good soil...MUCH better than it used to be. Mowing those rye stalks down in the summer adds a lot of organic matter to the soil too.

 

[Iowa_Dave]

I do the same thing minus the oats. I think I have been going too light at just #50 acre of WR. It looks like 100# total acre for serial grains regardless of the mix?

Regarding seeding rates on WR...I have gone as light as 50-60 pounds on an acre and been just fine and other times I go heavier, say 80-100 pounds per acre to get good coverage. The big variable is the seedbed to me. If it is a clean, well prepared seed bed, then the lighter rate works fine. If I am "fighting" some trash on top, etc, then heavier rates are needed IMO.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

https://conservesenecacounty.com/2018/10/using-winter-barley-as-a-cover-crop/

https://www.ilsoyadvisor.com/on-far...quick growing in,areas with little snow cover.

 

[Iowa_Dave]

It wasn't a post, it was an entire and very long thread where he discussed WR vs WW. There was a lot of push-back from WW advocates. It was older and back before WR as a cover crop was popular. There was a lot of great point and counter point in that thread.

Thanks,

Jack

Correct. ^^ In the "early days" Paul was really bucking the wind with his recommendations on rye v. WW. I cannot think of anyone espousing WR before Paul did...and the use of WW was very common in my area at that time. (My farm was between Paul's two farms in those days and whatever applied to him, applied to me as well, since we were only a couple miles away from each other.) I remember getting "the WR speech" from him one time when he saw that I had 5 acres of WW planted, etc. I was the proverbial deer in the headlights at the time, I don't think I even knew that there was WR, etc. But I switched the next year. :)

He "took fire" from several angles on the use of WR over WW and Paul being a little cantankerous himself, returned fire too. :) Every now and then he would ask me if I thought he was being too feisty with some of his replies. :) I would confidently say that he was the person to popularize the use of WR for food plotters everywhere, and also his rotation, in that time period.

 

[Catscratch]

It wasn't a post, it was an entire and very long thread where he discussed WR vs WW. There was a lot of push-back from WW advocates. It was older and back before WR as a cover crop was popular. There was a lot of great point and counter point in that thread.

Thanks,

Jack

I have a thread saved that is over 50 pages of Paul talking and debating cereal grains and cover crops from 06. The quote that I posted was his opening post of that thread. I figured it was the thread your were thinking of.

 

[yoderjac]

I have a thread saved that is over 50 pages of Paul talking and debating cereal grains and cover crops from 06. The quote that I posted was his opening post of that thread. I figured it was the thread your were thinking of.

Yep, that was the thread! It is a great read. I'd love to see you post it here!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Catscratch]

Correct. ^^ In the "early days" Paul was really bucking the wind with his recommendations on rye v. WW. I cannot think of anyone espousing WR before Paul did...and the use of WW was very common in my area at that time. (My farm was between Paul's two farms in those days and whatever applied to him, applied to me as well, since we were only a couple miles away from each other.) I remember getting "the WR speech" from him one time when he saw that I had 5 acres of WW planted, etc. I was the proverbial deer in the headlights at the time, I don't think I even knew that there was WR, etc. But I switched the next year. :)

He "took fire" from several angles on the use of WR over WW and Paul being a little cantankerous himself, returned fire too. :) Every now and then he would ask me if I thought he was being too feisty with some of his replies. :) I would confidently say that he was the person to popularize the use of WR for food plotters everywhere, and also his rotation, in that time period.

I loved his passion for plants and deer. He was truly great! He was the one who got me experimenting with side by side trials of rye and wheat. I took everything he said very seriously and really appreciate his contributions to plotting. I obviously currently disagree with his stance on wheat not being any good for plots as it's been shown many times over since then that wheat has most of the same attributes of soil building that rye does, and is great for grazing as well. With that said I still feel his contributions are nothing short of amazing.

 

[Catscratch]

Yep, that was the thread! It is a great read. I'd love to see you post it here!

Thanks,

Jack

Have no clue how to do it. I copy and pasted each page of the thread onto a word document... it's a jumbled mess when you do that as avatars and sig-lines take up a lot of goofy space.

 

[Iowa_Dave]

I loved his passion for plants and deer. He was truly great! He was the one who got me experimenting with side by side trials of rye and wheat. I took everything he said very seriously and really appreciate his contributions to plotting. I obviously currently disagree with his stance on wheat not being any good for plots as it's been shown many times over since then that wheat has most of the same attributes of soil building that rye does, and is great for grazing as well. With that said I still feel his contributions are nothing short of amazing.

As much as I think of Paul, I recognize that he could be a little too defensive of some of his theories at times. (He recognized this in himself too BTW.) I think he got so riled up "fighting" with some of his detractors, particularly the WW guys, at times that he sometimes locked in a little harder yet on some things. But...over time, he would soften up some. I think he got to the place where he would recommend WW as a part of the fall cereal grain mix, but still with WR as the cornerstone.

 

[yoderjac]

Have no clue how to do it. I copy and pasted each page of the thread onto a word document... it's a jumbled mess when you do that as avatars and sig-lines take up a lot of goofy space.

Yes, I remember how much of a PITA it was transferring the threads I did.

 

[Catscratch]

Never mind that last post, an online source for his threads is still up and running with a tribute corner for dbltree.
Here is the cereal grain thread:
https://iowawhitetail.com/forum/threads/cereal-grains-and-cover-crops.15879/

Here is the dbltree corner with a catalog of his threads:
https://iowawhitetail.com/forum/forums/dbltrees-corner.45/

 

[yoderjac]

As much as I think of Paul, I recognize that he could be a little too defensive of some of his theories at times. (He recognized this in himself too BTW.) I think he got so riled up "fighting" with some of his detractors, particularly the WW guys, at times that he sometimes locked in a little harder yet on some things. But...over time, he would soften up some. I think he got to the place where he would recommend WW as a part of the fall cereal grain mix, but still with WR as the cornerstone.

Absolutely! There is no reason not to have variety. Diversity is a cornerstone. I mostly use WR for a wide variety of reasons, but I'm not about to say that it is the "right" answer. It has been less expensive here lately. I have not used WW since I got my cultipacker. I got significantly better germination when I was surface broadcasting WW into standing beans. Since I've stopped growing soybeans and now have a cultipacker, I may even try mixing a few bags of WW in to my WR/CC/PTT cover crop mix next fall.

Thanks,

Jack