I would not be one to argue what you are saying - but in a large percentage of US deer country, there is probably a nearby mineral lick and a feed trough for cattle on the same ground - or nearby ground. So what good does it do to ban mineral licks and deer feed when there are cattle troughs, water tanks, and minerals on the very same ground?
Bait vs Food plots
- Thread starter 4wanderingeyes
- Start date
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I completely agree. Cattle benefit from mineral supplements but we don't see that with free ranging deer. Deer clearly use them when they are available because of the salt or sugar content. Like everything, there is risk and reward that we balance. When ranchers do this for cattle, there is clearly a different risk/reward than when we do it for deer. Deer use is an unintended negative consequence.
Man always has an impact on the ecosystem. Perhaps it should have a label, bend but do not break.
I think it would be helpful if you would show the specific evidence where point source feeding has caused spread of disease. Where? When ? How many deer perished? from what?
How do you account for the countless millions of tons of protein pellets that have been fed in Texas alone over the past few decades with essentially zero reports of problems. And in fact deer populations have increased as a result. And in fact deer herds have become healthier as a result. Actual real world field results strongly refute the allegation you continually make yet you never back your positions with proven facts . Why?
Its ok that you don't approve of feeding. But I question why you continually mislead.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I have not seen anything with that level of detail. I have seen some EHD studies quite a while back that involved increased face to face contact. I'll see if I can find them again. This was pre-web stuff, so I'll have to look to see if I still have paper copies. I have no intent to mislead Baker. I realize there are many places that use supplemental feeding. I never said I don't approve of it. There are pros and cons to it just like all the other practices. I simply said that some diseases have been shown to spread through face to face contact and EHD is one. I also said that point source feeding and attractants have been shown to increase face to face contact. I have not speculated on how much if any these practices increase the spread of disease. I'm sure it is highly dependent on the specifics of the disease. I simply identify these as risks.
It is my understanding EHD is spread by a midge. Not face to face contact. I'm unfamiliar with any disease spread by face to face contact so am curious what that might be??? Southern deer have become more adapted to EHD generally than northern deer. EHD has killed far more deer than CWD or any other known disease I'm aware of and can decimate northern populations from time to time. Not so bad in the south. Midges concentrated as water sources recede in dry summers causing limiting water sources for deer.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Correct, it comes from a midge. Deer tend to congregate on some water sources. As I recall the study was looking at midges moving from one deer to another. EHD is prevalent in this area. We have both acute and chronic forms. It seems to occur in cycles.
By the way, EHD was just an example that I recall seeing some research on many years ago. Here is a link to a more recent study abstract related to another disease and potential transmission vector: https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/michbovinetb/31/
All of this stuff is risk vs reward.
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Cwd is said to be the result of animals practicing cannabilism willingly or unwillingly . Perticularly spine and brain . People in Africa and South America have been found to get the human equivalent from eating human brains . I have witnessed deer chewing on deer bones in the wild and eating the velvet off each other's antlers in the wild and on farms . If the velvet is a vehicle to carry cwd no law or measure in the world will do anything to slow it down or stop it .
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Bassattackr
5 year old buck +
In case you haven't noticed.. Deer are very social animals Jack
..It's a drop in the bucket IMO.CWD was discovered in the 1960s, and some think has been around since 1900. The same deer and doe groups in an area that are licking each others faces will visit the same mineral stations. I'd argue that an active scrape gets more action than a mineral lick does.. Nothing we can do will impact this IMO, despite what the DNR thinks.
4wanderingeyes
5 year old buck +
Maybe the DNR can get them to wear a mask? That should work!
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Of course. We all know that. Their will always be some level of natural disease transmission between animals. What I'm talking about is whether we elevate that beyond normal levels through our practices.In case you haven't noticed.. Deer are very social animals Jack
CWD was discovered in the 1960s, and some think has been around since 1900. The same deer and doe groups in an area that are licking each others faces will visit the same mineral stations. I'd argue that an active scrape gets more action than a mineral lick does.. Nothing we can do will impact this IMO, despite what the DNR thinks.
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
From what I've read it seemed pretty solid that prions from CWD is transmitted primarily via feces and saliva. It seems reasonable to deduct that concentrating feces and saliva around a feeding site increases the likelihood of CWD transmission. The unknown question seems to be how much does it increase and do the risks outweigh any benefits.
To me it's kind of like a guy banging a bunch of chicks in college without using condoms having lower odds of getting AIDS than he would have if he were also a junky using dirty needles. I can't tell you how much more likely he'd be to get AIDS if he were a junky but it's reasonable to assume the odds are higher.
To me it's kind of like a guy banging a bunch of chicks in college without using condoms having lower odds of getting AIDS than he would have if he were also a junky using dirty needles. I can't tell you how much more likely he'd be to get AIDS if he were a junky but it's reasonable to assume the odds are higher.
The reality of risk
Many people are afraid of flying. Some to the point of avoiding altogether. Belief is the risk is too high.
The reality is statistically more people die going to and from the airport than are actually killed in aviation accidents.
Come to find out the concern about the risk is purely emotional.
But screw it. I’m at the ranch. Gonna throw some corn out and try to get my family on some nice bucks that have been on concentrated feeders year round for 26 years and are doing quite well
Many people are afraid of flying. Some to the point of avoiding altogether. Belief is the risk is too high.
The reality is statistically more people die going to and from the airport than are actually killed in aviation accidents.
Come to find out the concern about the risk is purely emotional.
But screw it. I’m at the ranch. Gonna throw some corn out and try to get my family on some nice bucks that have been on concentrated feeders year round for 26 years and are doing quite well
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
There is so much we don't know about spongiform diseases. Some prions can last a very long time in the soil. Different game departments seem to be handling it differently. Some are progressive and began changing rules even before CWD was detected in the state. In some cases, rules and regulations are being changed out of an abundance of caution given the state of the science. Most are applying the science where it is available, but they have to use logic and judgement to extrapolate from there. Each state seems to apply different logic and judgement when it comes to CWD mitigation. Also, the facts on the ground vary quite a bit between states where CWD has been prevalent for a long time and those where it is emerging.
Similarly, as individual managers, I think the best we can do is make decisions based on the science where it is available and then uses our best logic and judgement. Calling out the risks even when we can't quantify them is important. While humans do a very poor job of analyzing risk on an individual basis, science does a pretty good job of it when sufficient data is available.
It is not unreasonable for managers of good conscience to look at the limited science, and make different risk/reward decisions when it comes to practices.
Thanks,
Jack
BenAllgood
5 year old buck +
I bait with food plots.
Food plots can concentrate deer too. Put an exclusion cage on a heavily used food plot and see if you think they're not coming into contact with each other's saliva and excrements.
For hunting or viewing purposes, making deer predictable is very helpful. I tried a feeder in Kentucky this year. After our hunting season was over, I asked my 10 year old daughter where she would rather hunt. With no hesitation, she said the food plot. When asked why, she said it was because she saw more deer in the food plots. I had deer passing the feeder up to go to a couple of persimmon trees. I might try the feeder in a different location, but I may not even use it anymore just because it didn't have the drawing power my plots did.
Food plots can concentrate deer too. Put an exclusion cage on a heavily used food plot and see if you think they're not coming into contact with each other's saliva and excrements.
For hunting or viewing purposes, making deer predictable is very helpful. I tried a feeder in Kentucky this year. After our hunting season was over, I asked my 10 year old daughter where she would rather hunt. With no hesitation, she said the food plot. When asked why, she said it was because she saw more deer in the food plots. I had deer passing the feeder up to go to a couple of persimmon trees. I might try the feeder in a different location, but I may not even use it anymore just because it didn't have the drawing power my plots did.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Keep in mind there is a difference between face-to-face contact and coming in contact with saliva and feces. Airborne disease and perhaps some insect diseases have face-to-face contact as a more significant disease transmission vector. Virus based diseases don't last long outside the host. Prion diseases like CWD can be spread by face-to-face contact, prions have much more longevity. I'm sure tiny food plots carry some level of risk since anything that congregates deer can be a factor when deer don't have be be present simultaneously like the do for face-to-face contact.
Each practice has its own set of risks that apply differently to different diseases. They are not all equvalent.
Thanks,
Jack
BenAllgood
5 year old buck +
The two most prevalent ones are CWD and EHD. CWD is spread primarily by ingestion and EHD is spread by insect bites.
Corn in a spin feeder is the least effective bait I have used. I agree, food plots are a much bigger draw.
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
I just don’t see it. Corn is the single greatest draw around. A person can outcorn a bean field I bet.
My anecdotal experience says if I corn for camera observations I get numbers and visits by bucks I never pick up over plots where I run camera continuously and I only have corn out for about 2 weeks a season when I’m sure I won’t be there.
Bassattackr
5 year old buck +
Exactly the logic of MDC here in MO. A CWD positive means coming in and killing as many deer in the area as they can because.. Less deer, less CWD! Problem solved!!
Please.
I get better use on hand spread corn than I do with corn from a spin feeder. I have used corn for camera surveys in the past. But when I do my camera survey, it is September, before food plots are well established, and before any acorns start falling. When I was putting out corn in a food plot to position deer for the grand kids to shoot with a crossbow, I actually kept track of the deer I saw that came into the food plot and went to hand spread corn and it was 52%. The thing about a camera survey, you can put a camera on a bait pile and get a picture of every deer that comes to the bait. I could put two cameras on a two acre food plot and not get pictures of half the deer that came to the food plot at any given time. At my place, no way does corn outdraw a bean field. I own a small piece of property next to a 600 acre ag field. I might get eight or ten different deer a night on a corn pile, and in the forty acres of beans on my neighbor that is 20 yards from my bait pile, I will commonly see twenty to thirty deer - and as high as 82 one night - while hog hunting with thermal.
When I first started using corn, it was with a spin feeder to shoot hogs. I rarely had a deer at a feeder. It wasnt until I hand spread corn that I started getting deer in numbers. After they started using hand spread corn, some eventually got on feeders. At least on my place, There are other sources of “bait” that are available that draw many more deer than corn - especially bucks. But, there are also bucks that will visit my feed sites that avoid food plots. I have two bucks right now that are at a feed site almost every night - and one of them I have never got a picture of in a food plot and the other I got a picture of once in a food plot. In six months, one of those deer has never been to a feed site in shooting light. The other - maybe five times. But that is ok - I dont put out feed to kill deer.
My son and his daughter were hunting a stand opening morning of firearm season this year. There is a feed site within sight of the stand, along with a 300 yard long narrow food plot. They saw 32 deer, including nine bucks. Six of the deer went to the feed, most of the deer were in the food plot, but of those, the majority were just crossing and not feeding. We killed three bucks this year, all mature bucks, and the closest one to a feed site was 230 yards. One of them had never been to a feed site but was killed in a food plot. But, that is ok. We have the one stand where you can see a bait site, but the stand is actually positioned for hunting the food plot. We kill our deer out of food plots and on some trails.
I resisted using bait for years. I finally started using bait a couple weeks out of the year to position deer for a clean kill with the young grand daughters using a crossbow. I had this preconceived notion of baiting that was an incomplete understanding. What started out as a means for an eight year old girl to get a good shot with a crossbow, evolved into a whole other dimension. The feed is intended as another means to outdraw the neighbor’s bait and as a source for added nutrition for the deer - not for hunting anymore. We put out bait to SAVE deer, not to kill deer.
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