Are the glory days of deer hunting coming to a close?

[BenA]

Do you think you pay as much in sales tax as the average KY resident? How about state income tax? Do you think you support local business to the same extent as KY residents. Do you license your vehicles, boats, trailers in KY? Property tax is but a very small portion of the taxes I pay annually. If a NR bought my land - they would pay in taxes a very small portion of what I paid. I just paid $4200 in sales tax on a vehicle I bought. Would a NR do that?

Kentucky gets its fish and wildlife revenue almost entirely from license sales. A resident landowner in Kentucky doesn't have to pay a dime to hunt on their own land unless they want to.

 

[SwampCat]

As much…maybe. More than some way less than others. But how much do I consume? Almost nothing. So I’m a net positive in those terms

But you are a net negative compared to if a resident was living there. I dont know how KY works, so I have to go off what we do here in AR. I dont have kids in school, but I still pay millage of the worth of my boats, vehicles, and trailers. I buy almost all my food, gas, ammo, feeders, etc and support the local economy, which a NR does very little of. A NR is doing good to spend two months at their property - I spend - 12 months, buying groceries, medicine, eating at restaurants, going to dr, buying vehicles, boats, trailers, sxs’s, etc. A NR pays very little county sales tax - but the county would still keep the road up in front of a NR land, would still maintain the approach to a NR driveway, if the culvert washed out under the approach to your driveway, they would repair it. I dont see it as being a close call

I am NOT against a NR owning property - I just dont believe they support the area nearly like a resident does. I would love to own a nice fish camp down on the Louisiana coast

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

But you are a net negative compared to if a resident was living there. I dont know how KY works, so I have to go off what we do here in AR. I dont have kids in school, but I still pay millage of the worth of my boats, vehicles, and trailers. I buy almost all my food, gas, ammo, feeders, etc and support the local economy, which a NR does very little of. A NR is doing good to spend two months at their property - I spend - 12 months, buying groceries, medicine, eating at restaurants, going to dr, buying vehicles, boats, trailers, sxs’s, etc. A NR pays very little county sales tax - but the county would still keep the road up in front of a NR land, would still maintain the approach to a NR driveway, if the culvert washed out under the approach to your driveway, they would repair it. I dont see it as being a close call

I am NOT against a NR owning property - I just dont believe they support the area nearly like a resident does. I would love to own a nice fish camp down on the Louisiana coast

There’s no right answer. So some guy living in Des Moines in a rent controlled housing and getting ebt stamps contributes more than some high roller buying 500 acres in southern Iowa to hunt? EBT guy is a huge negative on the budget of the state yet he gets preferential treatment over the guy who would be a positive. Once again that’s why I err on the landowner angle
There’s a ton of angles to this debate.

 

[BenA]

I am NOT against a NR owning property - I just dont believe they support the area nearly like a resident does. I would love to own a nice fish camp down on the Louisiana coast

What if you did that, then Louisiana decides to say you can't fish or duck hunt there anymore, or you can only every so many years after they kept upping the license fees for you?

 

[SwampCat]

There’s no right answer. So some guy living in Des Moines in a rent controlled housing and getting ebt stamps contributes more than some high roller buying 500 acres in southern Iowa to hunt? EBT guy is a huge negative on the budget of the state yet he gets preferential treatment over the guy who would be a positive. Once again that’s why I err on the landowner angle
There’s a ton of angles to this debate.

Yes - I am not getting down in the weeds - I am strictly comparing what I, as a resident land owner, contribute to the area and state as compared to what a NR landowner would contribute if they owned my property.

 

[hillrunner]

There’s no right answer. So some guy living in Des Moines in a rent controlled housing and getting ebt stamps contributes more than some high roller buying 500 acres in southern Iowa to hunt? EBT guy is a huge negative on the budget of the state yet he gets preferential treatment over the guy who would be a positive. Once again that’s why I err on the landowner angle
There’s a ton of angles to this debate.

If we play our cards right, the EBT leech moves to a tent city in LA where they cater to his kind and the landowner moves to Iowa .

You're right, it's not perfect. The best we can do is compromise and hopefully choose the path that is best for the state and preserving rural communities overall , but also fair to out of state friends. I don't want to see anyone shut out completely.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

If we play our cards right, the EBT leech moves to a tent city in LA where they cater to his kind and the landowner moves to Iowa .

You're right, it's not perfect. The best we can do is compromise and hopefully choose the path that is best for the state and preserving rural communities overall , but also fair to out of state friends. I don't want to see anyone shut out completely.

Agreed totally. Someone in every scenario gets hurt and someone benefits. At the end of the day I’m going to side with the decision that benefits the resource. I would be open minded to anything that improved the hunting even if it negatively affected me. I’m sitting on 16 years of getting rejected in Utah for elk and I’m totally fine with it. There’s more interested people than resources at a quality level so we have to wait our turn. Sucks but it’s reality. The other option is go to the over saturated public land of Colorado and hunt dinks with 200,000 of your friends.

 

[SwampCat]

Probably not as disconnected as an out of state landowner - but in state intermittent land owner are not a great thing, either. I bought my land eight years before I moved to it permanently. Granted, I was still supporting state and county - but almost every time I went to my land, I bought food, gas, feed and seed, etc in the community where I lived. I hardly ever supported the community where my land was - until I moved full time.

 

[cbw]

Deer hunting has brought a lot of high performers to Iowa and kept others here. Most of the well known Iowa hunters are not from here. It's the only reason I haven't moved myself and my business a couple miles across the border into South Dakota with a far more favorable tax structure.

I wouldn't expect you to move every time you want access to a resource in another state but I also wouldn't expect you to have the same access as the residents. How many elk do you think would be left in the country if every US resident had unfettered access?

Several states are looking into charging substantially higher tax rates for 2nd homes to combat this very issue. I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do or not but It's wise for a state to take care of their residents first. How many homes does black rock own? Is that good for our country?

In a perfect world where land and resources are never ending, I'd agree with everything you say. I'd love to be able to hunt out west every year. Instead I keep buying points for that elk hunt in the Grand Teton mountains hoping I don't die before I draw the tag. A tag that I'd never be able to buy if it was simply sold to the highest bidder.

Agree 100%


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[Westwind]

Great discussion.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Agreed totally. Someone in every scenario gets hurt and someone benefits. At the end of the day I’m going to side with the decision that benefits the resource. I would be open minded to anything that improved the hunting even if it negatively affected me. I’m sitting on 16 years of getting rejected in Utah for elk and I’m totally fine with it. There’s more interested people than resources at a quality level so we have to wait our turn. Sucks but it’s reality. The other option is go to the over saturated public land of Colorado and hunt dinks with 200,000 of your friends.

Speaking of expensive, those UT elk tags.. 20 years of applications at current cost (i calc'd $227.88 / year) + new LE elk tag fee ($1950) => $6500+ tag.

 

[Mortenson]

Elk are more special and rare than whitetails. Deer are considered by pretty much everyone, other than deer hunters, to be pests. The chicago collar counties cull their deer and dump them out our way at the meat lockers. Numerous monster bucks with beer can bases like I've never seen, all sawed off an inch or two above the pedicles.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Elk are more special and rare than whitetails. Deer are considered by pretty much everyone, other than deer hunters, to be pests.

Definitely. I think Elk would inhabit a lot of the place whitetails did if they weren't more destructive than whitetails. Whitetails wreck cars and eat crops. Elk wreck fences and would be really hard on crops and cars too. Not to mention, habitualized rutting bulls in neighborhoods would be dangerous.

The chicago collar counties cull their deer and dump them out our way at the meat lockers. Numerous monster bucks with beer can bases like I've never seen, all sawed off an inch or two above the pedicles.

Man, that is a shame!

 

[Bowsnbucks]

hopefully choose the path that is best for the state and preserving rural communities overall ,

I don't know how it is in your state, but here in Pa. rural communities - with their long-time resident farmers, small business owners, and residents - are being ground into burger by "developers". Zoning boards?? Paid-off and crooked. Zoning here is an absolute JOKE. If any "developer" comes into a rural township & wants to build stamped-out, packed-together housing tracts, or 1 million sq. ft. warehouses ..... it's always a rubber stamped green light. Angry residents pack township zoning board meetings over & over .... to no avail. Tough shit, locals ..... can't / mustn't stop "development." Quiet, winding country roads become crowded by tractor-trailers until wider, super-highways can be bull-dozed through to bring even more "development." Taxes go through the roof to "subsidize" the new highways, storm sewers, etc. that the "developers" require for their folly. I know several small business owners who went to ALL the township zoning board meetings along with hundreds of other locals - and got nowhere. Landowners don't want to sell their land at the low-ball offers from "developers" - they have their land condemned to green-light the "developers."

I know this thread is (recently) about NR hunting, and all the irons that get thrown into the fire along with it, but just a heads-up on what is a spreading disease related to saving rural farms, communities, and vanishing green spaces. It isn't just here in Pa. - but it's coming to a town near any of us. The most vulnerable spots are the ones near major highways, for easy access to them.

 

[Telemark]

I don't know how it is in your state, but here in Pa. rural communities - with their long-time resident farmers, small business owners, and residents - are being ground into burger by "developers". Zoning boards?? Paid-off and crooked. Zoning here is an absolute JOKE. If any "developer" comes into a rural township & wants to build stamped-out, packed-together housing tracts, or 1 million sq. ft. warehouses ..... it's always a rubber stamped green light. Angry residents pack township zoning board meetings over & over .... to no avail. Tough shit, locals ..... can't / mustn't stop "development." Quiet, winding country roads become crowded by tractor-trailers until wider, super-highways can be bull-dozed through to bring even more "development." Taxes go through the roof to "subsidize" the new highways, storm sewers, etc. that the "developers" require for their folly. I know several small business owners who went to ALL the township zoning board meetings along with hundreds of other locals - and got nowhere. Landowners don't want to sell their land at the low-ball offers from "developers" - they have their land condemned to green-light the "developers."

I know this thread is (recently) about NR hunting, and all the irons that get thrown into the fire along with it, but just a heads-up on what is a spreading disease related to saving rural farms, communities, and vanishing green spaces. It isn't just here in Pa. - but it's coming to a town near any of us. The most vulnerable spots are the ones near major highways, for easy access to them.

Can't you organize those hundreds of people to vote out the local council/trustees/supervisors/etc. and get some people in who want to keep the development out?

 

[Mortenson]

I don't know how it is in your state, but here in Pa. rural communities - with their long-time resident farmers, small business owners, and residents - are being ground into burger by "developers". Zoning boards?? Paid-off and crooked. Zoning here is an absolute JOKE. If any "developer" comes into a rural township & wants to build stamped-out, packed-together housing tracts, or 1 million sq. ft. warehouses ..... it's always a rubber stamped green light. Angry residents pack township zoning board meetings over & over .... to no avail. Tough shit, locals ..... can't / mustn't stop "development." Quiet, winding country roads become crowded by tractor-trailers until wider, super-highways can be bull-dozed through to bring even more "development." Taxes go through the roof to "subsidize" the new highways, storm sewers, etc. that the "developers" require for their folly. I know several small business owners who went to ALL the township zoning board meetings along with hundreds of other locals - and got nowhere. Landowners don't want to sell their land at the low-ball offers from "developers" - they have their land condemned to green-light the "developers."

I know this thread is (recently) about NR hunting, and all the irons that get thrown into the fire along with it, but just a heads-up on what is a spreading disease related to saving rural farms, communities, and vanishing green spaces. It isn't just here in Pa. - but it's coming to a town near any of us. The most vulnerable spots are the ones near major highways, for easy access to them.

Around here, it's pretty much just the wind and solar developments that fit what you're describing. More traditional developments happen on the edges of town, or in town. In that sense, zoning has worked.

 

[BenA]

I don't know how it is in your state, but here in Pa. rural communities - with their long-time resident farmers, small business owners, and residents - are being ground into burger by "developers". Zoning boards?? Paid-off and crooked. Zoning here is an absolute JOKE. If any "developer" comes into a rural township & wants to build stamped-out, packed-together housing tracts, or 1 million sq. ft. warehouses ..... it's always a rubber stamped green light. Angry residents pack township zoning board meetings over & over .... to no avail. Tough shit, locals ..... can't / mustn't stop "development." Quiet, winding country roads become crowded by tractor-trailers until wider, super-highways can be bull-dozed through to bring even more "development." Taxes go through the roof to "subsidize" the new highways, storm sewers, etc. that the "developers" require for their folly. I know several small business owners who went to ALL the township zoning board meetings along with hundreds of other locals - and got nowhere. Landowners don't want to sell their land at the low-ball offers from "developers" - they have their land condemned to green-light the "developers."

I know this thread is (recently) about NR hunting, and all the irons that get thrown into the fire along with it, but just a heads-up on what is a spreading disease related to saving rural farms, communities, and vanishing green spaces. It isn't just here in Pa. - but it's coming to a town near any of us. The most vulnerable spots are the ones near major highways, for easy access to them.

That's what happened here. Where i live now used to be pastures, woods, and swamp. People die who have kids. The kids sell the property. A developer turns it into a subdivision or strip mall. Rinse, repeat enough times, and this rural area is now subdivisions and strip malls going on and on and on. How do you stop that? Tell the kids the others have to buy one person out and keep it whole? I don't like the suburbanization of rural America. But, do you put a cap on how much someone can make off of selling their property? Do we stop people from building their dream house in the country? People keep building these dream houses until it's not country anymore. I think this sprawl is much worse than NR landowners buying hunting land.

 

[cbw]

I agree with everything you said except I bet I differ in one area. I think nonresident landowners (of a certain size) should be treated the same as residents. I’ve listed the reasons before but the cliffs are they pay more in taxes than they use and generally they are more infested in the state than a large amount of residents.

Great discussion. Lots of merit to all. Just weighing in to respectfully disagree. My view is that it is best to have the priority something like:

1. The Resource
2. The local residents
3. Out of state hunters (including OOS land owners here)

Let me first say that as a current landowner, if my state (Iowa) were to grant the same rights to non-residence as they do resident land owners, my property would probably double in value.

But that is actually the reason why I am against it. It would be disastrous to what is already declining access for local resident hunters.

For that reason, (and others), I would never be in favor of my state treating a non-resident land owner the same as residents. JMO


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[Mortenson]

In our county I think you need 35 acres to sell for a house to be built on. Unless you were zoned decades ago and grandfathered in. They tried putting an end to the rural neighborhoods popping up.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Great discussion. Lots of merit to all. Just weighing in to respectfully disagree. My view is that it is best to have the priority something like:

1. The Resource
2. The local residents
3. Out of state hunters (including OOS land owners here)

Let me first say that as a current landowner, if my state (Iowa) were to grant the same rights to non-residence as they do resident land owners, my property would probably double in value.

But that is actually the reason why I am against it. It would be disastrous to what is already declining access for local resident hunters.

For that reason, (and others), I would never be in favor of my state treating a non-resident land owner the same as residents. JMO


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Understood but from a resource and/or hunting standpoint why is a local more valuable that a nonresident? A lot of locals around me arent worth pissing on if they were on fire. I don’t think the fact you lay your head somewhere makes you a better steward of a resource