Apples,apples and more apples

[Chainsaw]

Your pic of your grafts looks promising Jeremy. Looking forward to completing the process with planting at least some live grafts and hopefully many.

Ended today with 89 mature apple trees being fertilized with 1.1 lbs urea per tree. It was a slow process as it was measured out manually and then doled out to each tree individually. Would like to get another 211 trees fertilized so there would be a fairly large group fertilized to compare to a very large Group not fertilized to determine if the fertilized trees produce on average more apples. Will bag fertilizer in 1.1 pound pacs in preparation for the next rain day. And am planning on fertilizing the group of three hundred twice this spring if the weather supports it.

On a more specific note scion size for one year growth, thru three year growth has been measured and recorded for four specific trees. For example on the better size scions for the Turning Point Apple tree the first year growth (diameter measured just above the growth ring) ran 5/32 of an inch with an occasional 3/32 and 4/32 but no 7/32 and as expected the second and third year growth measured slightly higher. Growth rates when measured by length of growth per year were all over the place ranging from 2 7/8 inches to 15 7/8 inches with most well under ten inches. These trees will be measured next year and the measurements compared to this years measurements will tell us if the tree grew more in 2021 versus last year. If it does grow more it could mean the fertilizer or the pruning or both may have caused the extra growth.

Other younger Apple trees showed first year diameter growth of 5 to 7/32 inch and pears showed 6 1/2 to 7/32 inch diameter. So the question of did the trees generally grow more or bigger apples w/fertilizer will be subjective but will be at least visually compared to an unfertilized group Of trees. The scion growth rate however will be more measurable.

 

[sandbur]

Your pic of your grafts looks promising Jeremy. Looking forward to completing the process with planting at least some live grafts and hopefully many.

Ended today with 89 mature apple trees being fertilized with 1.1 lbs urea per tree. It was a slow process as it was measured out manually and then doled out to each tree individually. Would like to get another 211 trees fertilized so there would be a fairly large group fertilized to compare to a very large Group not fertilized to determine if the fertilized trees produce on average more apples. Will bag fertilizer in 1.1 pound pacs in preparation for the next rain day. And am planning on fertilizing the group of three hundred twice this spring if the weather supports it.

On a more specific note scion size for one year growth, thru three year growth has been measured and recorded for four specific trees. For example on the better size scions for the Turning Point Apple tree the first year growth (diameter measured just above the growth ring) ran 5/32 of an inch with an occasional 3/32 and 4/32 but no 7/32 and as expected the second and third year growth measured slightly higher. Growth rates when measured by length of growth per year were all over the place ranging from 2 7/8 inches to 15 7/8 inches with most well under ten inches. These trees will be measured next year and the measurements compared to this years measurements will tell us if the tree grew more in 2021 versus last year. If it does grow more it could mean the fertilizer or the pruning or both may have caused the extra growth.

Other younger Apple trees showed first year diameter growth of 5 to 7/32 inch and pears showed 6 1/2 to 7/32 inch diameter. So the question of did the trees generally grow more or bigger apples w/fertilizer will be subjective but will be at least visually compared to an unfertilized group Of trees. The scion growth rate however will be more measurable.

Rainfall is very important for tree growth on my place.


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[Chainsaw]

That is a good point Sandbur and although this area seldom experiences overly dry periods the lack of rain when it happens could account for lower apple abundance years which we do get now and then As well it could explain for the variations in the scion growth length seen in different ages I measured here. Lack of water of course can And does result in that but in low rain years the lack of apple growth could be compounded by the less nitrogen the tree receives from lesser rains versus the higher amounts it receives during wetter years. Adding some nitrogen thru fertilizers makes sense on paper and many apple experts are using it as well. Thus I don’t see the question of whether or not to fertilize but rather how much for this property. Are you fertilizing mature trees and if so what amount of nitrogen is working best for you? In my previous attempts at fertilizing I really didn’t have any understanding of how to measure its impacts; possibly back then it could have made a difference but I just didn’t have the right eyes on it.

Additionally to the conservative test of 1.1 lbs of urea applied twice in the spring as referred to in post #101, I have decided to test another sampling of mature apple trees with 2.2 lbs of urea applied twice in the spring (weather permitting of course). Possibly with the conservative test of 1.1 lbs of urea(about a half lb. of nitrogen x 2 application or one lb in total) and the more aggressive test of 2.2 lbs urea(about a full pound of nitrogen x 2 or two pounds nitrogen in total), the question for what may be best here fertilizer wise could possibly be defined in just one season or at least better defined.

 

[sandbur]

That is a good point Sandbur and although this area seldom experiences overly dry periods the lack of rain when it happens could account for lower apple abundance years which we do get now and then As well it could explain for the variations in the scion growth length seen in different ages I measured here. Lack of water of course can And does result in that but in low rain years the lack of apple growth could be compounded by the less nitrogen the tree receives from lesser rains versus the higher amounts it receives during wetter years. Adding some nitrogen thru fertilizers makes sense on paper and many apple experts are using it as well. Thus I don’t see the question of whether or not to fertilize but rather how much for this property. Are you fertilizing mature trees and if so what amount of nitrogen is working best for you? In my previous attempts at fertilizing I really didn’t have any understanding of how to measure its impacts; possibly back then it could have made a difference but I just didn’t have the right eyes on it.

Additionally to the conservative test of 1.1 lbs of urea applied twice in the spring as referred to in post #101, I have decided to test another sampling of mature apple trees with 2.2 lbs of urea applied twice in the spring (weather permitting of course). Possibly with the conservative test of 1.1 lbs of urea(about a half lb. of nitrogen x 2 application or one lb in total) and the more aggressive test of 2.2 lbs urea(about a full pound of nitrogen x 2 or two pounds nitrogen in total), the question for what may be best here fertilizer wise could possibly be defined in just one season or at least better defined.

I have been using the fruit tree spikes with a bit of pel lime applied above each spike. I have no idea how much difference the pel lime makes. I only fertilize specific trees for my use and my favorite trees for deer use.

I only use spikes in the spring and not twice a year due to our climate.

My land tends to run low pH to 6.5 at high end in just a few spots.


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[sandbur]

That is a good point Sandbur and although this area seldom experiences overly dry periods the lack of rain when it happens could account for lower apple abundance years which we do get now and then As well it could explain for the variations in the scion growth length seen in different ages I measured here. Lack of water of course can And does result in that but in low rain years the lack of apple growth could be compounded by the less nitrogen the tree receives from lesser rains versus the higher amounts it receives during wetter years. Adding some nitrogen thru fertilizers makes sense on paper and many apple experts are using it as well. Thus I don’t see the question of whether or not to fertilize but rather how much for this property. Are you fertilizing mature trees and if so what amount of nitrogen is working best for you? In my previous attempts at fertilizing I really didn’t have any understanding of how to measure its impacts; possibly back then it could have made a difference but I just didn’t have the right eyes on it.

Additionally to the conservative test of 1.1 lbs of urea applied twice in the spring as referred to in post #101, I have decided to test another sampling of mature apple trees with 2.2 lbs of urea applied twice in the spring (weather permitting of course). Possibly with the conservative test of 1.1 lbs of urea(about a half lb. of nitrogen x 2 application or one lb in total) and the more aggressive test of 2.2 lbs urea(about a full pound of nitrogen x 2 or two pounds nitrogen in total), the question for what may be best here fertilizer wise could possibly be defined in just one season or at least better defined.

I have been using the fruit tree spikes with a bit of pel lime applied above each spike. I have no idea how much difference the pel lime makes. I only fertilize specific trees for my use and my favorite trees for deer use.

I only use spikes in the spring and not twice a year due to our climate.

My land tends to run low pH to 6.5 at high end in just a few spots.


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Newly planted trees are not fertilized for quite a few years.


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[Chainsaw]

Am looking forward to hearing how you make out with your apple grafting onto the larger rootstocks Sandbur.

Received and planted the order of 11 trees from Fedco nursery, Clinton Maine which completed the planting of all previously ordered 2020 fruit trees. Then an order for habitat trees got cancelled by the county due to the virus so I ordered another box of apple trees from Northern Whitetail Crabapple PA. which is scheduled for delivery the middle of this coming week.

Yesterday, fertilized most of the planted 2020 planted trees with 1/2 lb of triple 19. All fertilizer was premeasured and bagged prior to heading to the field and it was spread completely outside of the 3 ft. square weed mats. Also applied 350 lbs of Urea yesterday to mature apple trees at the rate of 2 lbs. per tree(again measured and pre-bagged previously). That fertilizing effort didn't take all day but it used up a full days energy as there was a lot of walking and fertilizing throwing exercise. Two pounds seemed like a paltry amount to spread around the larger apple trees in the up to 24 inch DBH range but we'll do it again in a month if conditions are favorable to it and will see how the tree reacts throughout the season and plan next seasons fertilizing efforts based on those reactions.

As described earlier in the thread hundreds of Turning Point Apple Tree seeds were planted directly in the ground in December and hundreds more were planted in jugs throughout the winter. The weather last week has been hitting in the twenties most nights so when fertilizing was done for the day I figured it would be interesting to check the seedbeds and jugs to find out what if anything was happening. In the garden where 600 seeds had been planted in about one sq. yard three apple seedlings were beginning to emerge. They were just tiny hints of green at this point--nothing exciting there.

Then I checked the jugs;

and more jugs;

Starting daylily seeds in jugs is something that has worked well here over the last few years here and most of the jugs pictured have daylilies in them but some were planted with apple seeds during the winter to see if they too could use this very easy no maintenance seed starting method. Apple seeds were planted on and off throughout the winter, watered and then placed out in the snowbanks. Notice they are against rock piles, that is done to keep them from blowing away and I'm guessing the rocks may hold some of the suns heat. Not sure about the heat part affecting anything but it makes for a good place out of the way of driving and mowing to leave the jugs which will stay there until the resultant seedlings are planted in mid may thru June or even later depending on available time. The jugs are only watered that one time and never again and a few holes have been drilled into the bottom area for drainage. This is a closeup of what the jugs look like unopened; Notice the jug is fully sealed except the caps are discarded and the top is not covered in any way. The rain and snow must get in to keep them hydrated.

Normally the jugs aren't even looked at until mid May but I am opening these to inspect them and will them reseal them and put them back into their previous rock pile locations.
Here the tape has been removed from three random apple seedling jugs exposing the apple seedlings;

I find it amazing that there is no sign of frost damage whatsoever despite it having been cold enough during the week that water in buckets froze hard and stayed frozen some days throughout the day warmups which reached up to 45 degrees and last week it had snowed twice and rained once besides. The snow did not accumulate. The brown/dead material on the top of some seedlings is I believe the seed covering. Outside they would have fallen off but inside the jug though the jug is out in the weather it evidently stays calm enough that some of the seed pod coverings stay on. So the apple seedlings jugs have been resealed around the cut middle with duct tape and are back outside now. So far so good. WE'll take another status look around May 15 of both in the jugs planting and the direct in the ground planting.

 

[chummer]

Wow! Great job.

 

[Chainsaw]

Wow! Great job.

Thanks Chummer. So far it appears to be a pretty significant improvement over planting directly in the ground; there will be zero weed germination in the jugs, no need to water and in the experience with daylilies the jug planted seedlings transplanted better than daylily seedlings germinated in trays and raised in the sun room over the winter. And it is hugely more wife friendly than having trays all over the sun room throughout the winter to say nothing of the resultant spilled water and tiny bugs that hatch in the trays. Hopefully the jug raised apple seedlings react the same way regarding transplanting.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Great idea, Chainsaw! Like mini-greenhouses. Those apple seeds look like they're cooking right along too. I'm gonna save some gallon jugs and give that a try.

 

[sandbur]

Wow! Great job.

Thanks Chummer. So far it appears to be a pretty significant improvement over planting directly in the ground; there will be zero weed germination in the jugs, no need to water and in the experience with daylilies the jug planted seedlings transplanted better than daylily seedlings germinated in trays and raised in the sun room over the winter. And it is hugely more wife friendly than having trays all over the sun room throughout the winter to say nothing of the resultant spilled water and tiny bugs that hatch in the trays. Hopefully the jug raised apple seedlings react the same way regarding transplanting.

I like that jug raising idea. My seedlings haven’t emerged yet. I dug three today and will start another thread.


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[Chainsaw]

Great idea, Chainsaw! Like mini-greenhouses. Those apple seeds look like they're cooking right along too. I'm gonna save some gallon jugs and give that a try.

Thanks Bowsnbucks and Sandbur,
Not my idea but something that has been slow to take hold. The great thing that it does is to make these hard to germinate seeds germinate all at once versus one here and one there. The other cool thing is that planting is done whenever during the winter when one wants to in the comfort of inside.

 

[Charles Clear]

Wow! Great idea! I will be saving jugs now too! Thank you

 

[Chainsaw]

I like that jug raising idea. My seedlings haven’t emerged yet. I dug three today and will start another thread.


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Sandbur, I saw your seedling root pictures on Mahindras seed to seedling thread. They are incredible. Looking forward to your new thread. Am very interested to see how you got roots to grow so well And presume that we will be seeing some great growing trees!

Everyone, I have challenged Ryan at Blue Hill Wildlife Nursery to a contest to see which of us can grow the biggest Turning Point Tree on grafted rootstock this year. He accepted immediately and sent me a copy of his soil test; all categories were rated as optimum for apple tree growing. Ryan has me outgunned right off the bat with that and he can and does grow nice trees besides. Am figuring that though he is likely to grow the largest Turning Point Tree that it will be fun and there will really be two winners out of it. Still I’d like not to get whipped too bad. So any and all suggestions from experienced and new growers alike are very welcome. I need help to give me some edge on Ryan. Either post here or PM me. Thanks.

 

[chummer]

Do it like the pumpkin growers and hook it to an IV drip

 

[sandbur]

I like that jug raising idea. My seedlings haven’t emerged yet. I dug three today and will start another thread.


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Sandbur, I saw your seedling root pictures on Mahindras seed to seedling thread. They are incredible. Looking forward to your new thread. Am very interested to see how you got roots to grow so well And presume that we will be seeing some great growing trees!

Everyone, I have challenged Ryan at Blue Hill Wildlife Nursery to a contest to see which of us can grow the biggest Turning Point Tree on grafted rootstock this year. He accepted immediately and sent me a copy of his soil test; all categories were rated as optimum for apple tree growing. Ryan has me outgunned right off the bat with that and he can and does grow nice trees besides. Am figuring that though he is likely to grow the largest Turning Point Tree that it will be fun and there will really be two winners out of it. Still I’d like not to get whipped too bad. So any and all suggestions from experienced and new growers alike are very welcome. I need help to give me some edge on Ryan. Either post here or PM me. Thanks.

I just added the comments/ pictures to that thread versus starting a new one.

Get that ground well tilled and adequate water to beat Ryan. He needs to give you a handicap for a shorter growing season unless he is just planting in New York for the contest.


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[Chainsaw]

I just added the comments/ pictures to that thread versus starting a new one.

Get that ground well tilled and adequate water to beat Ryan. He needs to give you a handicap for a shorter growing season unless he is just planting in New York for the contest.


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Ryan is planting in Pennsylvania. However while this area east of Lake Ontario sees zone 4 extreme lows, it enjoys a long growing season and has very few days of extreme heat. NY is second in the nation for apple production whereas PA is number 4 so location may not be a handicap. I’ll be sure it gets an extra tilling and does not dry out.

 

[Chainsaw]

Finally moved the grafted rootstock into the heated barn from the unheated one. Put my hand into the wood chips in the buckets and it was like scooping ice out of the hole when ice fishing; hands were not happy. Mostly the plants looked ok, most of them still very dormant though. A few grafts had gotten broken/loosened from moving and bagging--were no doubt too weak to start with.


Was hoping to see all kinds of growth like Chummer had on his grafts but most had nothing. A few were showing tiny signs of life though so there is hope.

Watered them lightly and re-covered them with plastic bags and tucked the bags inside the pails; hopefully the warmer atmosphere will bring more trees to life soon. Twenty-six degrees is forecast for tonight but plant-able weather for grafted trees may be only a few days away.

Meanwhile the package ordered a few days ago from Northern Whitetail Crab Apples arrived today and tomorrow looks like a super day for planting, sunny with very little wind. While digging holes yesterday with the tractor a mature tom strutted to within twenty yards of the tractor; must have been a slow day for him. I waved my arms at him and he strutted all the more.

 

[sandbur]

Finally moved the grafted rootstock into the heated barn from the unheated one. Put my hand into the wood chips in the buckets and it was like scooping ice out of the hole when ice fishing; hands were not happy. Mostly the plants looked ok, most of them still very dormant though. A few grafts had gotten broken/loosened from moving and bagging--were no doubt too weak to start with.
View attachment 29297

Was hoping to see all kinds of growth like Chummer had on his grafts but most had nothing. A few were showing tiny signs of life though so there is hope.
View attachment 29298
Watered them lightly and re-covered them with plastic bags and tucked the bags inside the pails; hopefully the warmer atmosphere will bring more trees to life soon. Twenty-six degrees is forecast for tonight but plant-able weather for grafted trees may be only a few days away.

Meanwhile the package ordered a few days ago from Northern Whitetail Crab Apples arrived today and tomorrow looks like a super day for planting, sunny with very little wind. While digging holes yesterday with the tractor a mature tom strutted to within twenty yards of the tractor; must have been a slow day for him. I waved my arms at him and he strutted all the more.

My one bucket of 6 or 7 grafts looks pretty puny compared to your operation!

I counted last night and I have 75 trees in what I call the home orchard.” Then there are strings along the swamp and three clusters, plus three rows along one swamp. I guess they are now called wetlands.


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[Bowsnbucks]

I've got several baby seedlings growing in pots from Sandbur's seeds. Buckman and Yellow Dog are first out of the ground. Seeds were stratified in the frig - damp paper towels in zip-lock bags. Pots are inside next to south-facing sliding doors. I'm gonna take good care of these little guys knowing what they may become from Bur's pictures!!

 

[Chainsaw]

My one bucket of 6 or 7 grafts looks pretty puny compared to your operation!

I counted last night and I have 75 trees in what I call the home orchard.” Then there are strings along the swamp and three clusters, plus three rows along one swamp. I guess they are now called wetlands.


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My operation has to be aggressive; you have set a high bar that most of us would be thrilled to duplicate.