Apples,apples and more apples

[Chainsaw]

Good for you Jeremy; It should be a great hunting season for you and your daughter. If your area doesn’t have doe tags, have your daughter apply for a 6g tag just in case the hill doesn’t produce. Just be sure she practices shooting at a full size deer picture at ten yards or less from a sitting on the ground position. We will save a special spot for you and her.

And is it possible to staple some window screen around those Center Field Tree suckers immediately or at least just when the leaves begin to curl?

 

[Chainsaw]

Oak nut, you bring up some good observations and I like your approach to using the apple trees as landscape features as well. First regarding your comment of “looks like a good Apple year”. From that one picture taken two days ago showing Turning Point apples and the current color of them (repeated below), it does look like a great Apple year but looks of course can be misleading. Actually due to an unusual dry period for this area it is heading to be a poor Apple year. Some trees are loaded and some are empty and with a lot in between but it is so dry that it is possible apple trees here will lose their leaves and fruit very early as compared to average rainfall years.
Last year was the first year we cut a large # of scions off of Turning Point. The scions were terribly short and thin and limited in numbers. In an effort to grow better scion wood nearly all of the first and second year growth was trimmed from Turning Point to hopefully stimulate new growth. The picture above shows a tiny section of the Turning Point tree where we missed trimming. Since we cut off the branch tips that were to house apples for this past summer those areas(most of the tree) have no fruit. Further the apples shown are on the underside of the tree and are thus shaded from direct sun so they may be the last to turn color.

In contrast here are two apples picked from a more sunny spot on Turning Point yesterday; one is representative of the larger size on Turning Point and the other is from the smallest on Turning Point from this year.


Regarding the landscape value of Turning Point it in itself does provide significant color and shape against the white of winter. However it is the regular daytime deer activity that makes Turning Point a great landscape tree. It provides us with literally hundreds of deer sightings throughout the fall and winter. If it grows well on your property having it within view of your house should add immensely to the emptiness of all white and more white. Will discuss and show the results of our attempts to increase the quality and quantity of scion wood on Turning Point in another post soon.

 

[Oaknut]

Chainsaw,

Thanks for the additional info. about the color & size of the fruit on your Turning Point tree, it is hard to beat a good photo.

And your point regarding the landscape value of deer is well taken.

 

[Chainsaw]

The heavy trimming of the Turning Point apple tree late last winter set it up to produce better wood for scion cutting. Further to encourage greater scion growth on Turning Point this spring we started off by carefully spraying with Roundup the few weeds that were growing within the drip line Of the tree. Though there was no evidence of any Turning Point root suckers growing I was very timid about spraying heavily and just lightly squirted each weed individually. Some weeds did survive but not many. A week later a 4 inch layer of three year old wood chip mulch was added Under the tree leaving the area immediately around the trunk bare of the mulch.
The weeds were killed to reduce the guess work in how much fertilizer to use In the future. With less weeds to use up the nutrients it would be easier to calculate future fertilizing efforts. That would be if I documented each fertilizer application. Three applications were done, one each in late April, May and June. One was two pounds of Urea and two were one pound of Urea each. And I can’t remember which fertilizer application was two and which ones were one pound. Will try again next year. you can see by the area under and around Turning Point where the fertilizer seems to have had an impact on growth. When deciphering the impact of the Urea though the impact of years of deer manure dropped under the tree needs to be factored in—yet another unknown. Still we can see the nutrient level under and around Turning Point is higher than the surrounding area.

In the picture of Turning Point‘s trunks you can see two trunks side by side, the one on the right at knee height is eleven plus inches and the one on the left is six inches. The one on right branches out to two stems just above the knee. So Turning Point is a three stemmed tree; it originally had five stems but two were cut out years ago to release the other three and to allow the mower to fit under the tree. Turning Point is located on a side hill in the poorest soil area on the property according to soil maps. It is around twenty feet tall when measured on its uphill side. The tree canopy of Turning Point measured east to west is 24 feet as is the canopy on the north/south measurement.

Additionally there is another apple tree growing six and one-feet away and directly to the south of Turning Point taking up some of the best Sunlight. It remains there because the second tree in itself is fairly productive as well. The tree to the right even with its eight inch diameter at knee height goes up to waist high and then takes an abrupt turn to the south. Evidently either Turning Point either had a timing (first there) advantage or is simply a stronger growing tree as it is controlling the canopy space. All of this is mentioned to point out that Turning Point is not blessed with the best of growing conditions.

Turning Point apple is the tree on the left with the tree on the right blocking its southern sun exposure. Being that the tree on the right is also downhill of Turning Point, it likely benefitted from the fertilizer placed under Turning Point as well.

In the next post we’ll continue on with the story of growing better scion wood on the Turning Point apple tree.

 

[chummer]

Good for you Jeremy; It should be a great hunting season for you and your daughter. If your area doesn’t have doe tags, have your daughter apply for a 6g tag just in case the hill doesn’t produce. Just be sure she practices shooting at a full size deer picture at ten yards or less from a sitting on the ground position. We will save a special spot for you and her.

And is it possible to staple some window screen around those Center Field Tree suckers immediately or at least just when the leaves begin to curl?

Thank you for such a great invite. She is wreaking havoc on the rabbits in the back yard. She is a better shot then me. That is a good idea to protect those scion. I should be able to get some off the clones as well. We are going up to practice with the shot gun next weekend. We have two issues, all the stores are out of ammo and we have been told by three places that the state system is not granting first time licenses. They just get an error message. The belief is that no one is entering the names from the safety courses into the data bases. We will figure it out. I have a 4 point patterned so hopefully we get him but she wants to wait for one of the bigger bucks that come out at midnight.

 

[Chainsaw]

All of the prep work on the Turning Point apple tree like heavy branch trimming, weed killing, mulching and fertilizing should have been enough to get the scions sizes (one year old growth) we wanted. However we then hit a record breaking stretch of eight days over ninety degrees in a row( two to three days are normal in an entire summer). The heat wave was accompanied by little to no rain. Instead of our average monthly rains of 3 1/2 inches to 4 1/4 inches only one to two tenths of an inch fell every couple of weeks with only one exception of one single inch of rain from a single storm for the entire summer. By mid July scion growth had slowed considerably so it was decided to supplement the natural precipitation by trucking in water at the rate of two inches per month spread within the drip line of Turning Point.

Water is purchased at a town water station for $2 per 200 gallons and luckily it is located only three miles away from us.
Since Turning Point had a drip line diameter of 24 feet it would take close to three hundred gallons to drop an inch of water onto Turning Point. The tank holds close to two hundred and with the water set to drain at half speed thru a 1/2 inch hose it took around eight hours to dump the tank. Then one more trip to the water station for a refill to continue watering. Very quickly the leaves started looking better and scion growth continued as did the every other week of watering. Every week might have been better but the results aren’t so bad.

Pictured below is the top section of Turning Point where the one year growth of 12 to 24 inches and even higher can be observed.



Sucker branches about fifty of them on the extra heavily Trimmed Right stem ranged in size up to 52 inches long with diameters as high as just a hair shy of 3/8 inch.

Here is view of the full Turning Point Apple tree one year old growth;
Turning Point ended up with a lot more and larger one year old growth than the couple of inches it had in 2019. It did fall short of what I was hoping for with the non sucker one year old growth not looking like they hit 1/4 inch diameter. This is just a guess as I did not climb to the top of the tree to actually measure them whereas the suckers were measured as they were within reach from the ground. So was it the fertilizing, trimming or watering that made the difference as far as the larger suckers grew? It definitely took all three for the huge sucker growth. The scion growth (one year old growth)could have been due to just mainly the fertilizing. Shown in the next picture which shows typical one year old growth on trees that received an accumulated total of two to three pounds of urea total put down in two applications. It shows one year growth of 12 inches and higher without trimming or watering. There remain a few weeks of continued first year growth. It will actually be measured at scion cutting time this winter. The tree below is not Turning Point just a nearby tree to show one year old growth on a fertilized tree.

Will fertilizing of mature Apple trees be done here next year? Definitely!
edit- For those who have not tried grafting yet it is the one year old growth that is normally used to cut scions off of. And when it grows long it stands out from the general shape of the tree giving the tree “a bad hair day” look.

 

[Gravel Road]

Wow, now I'm really excited to get my Turning Point next spring! Thanks for sharing some of the process that is involved.

 

[homerj]

View attachment 31666

Looks like two trees. Typical of many wild seedlings

 

[Chainsaw]

Wow, now I'm really excited to get my Turning Point next spring! Thanks for sharing some of the process that is involved.

You are very welcome Gravel Road. This is likely not a standard operating procedure but rather something chosen so that there might be enough scion material to quickly propagate Turning Point Apple trees for my property as well as provide Ryan at Blue Hill Wildlife Nursery with scion wood. Additionally Ryan is busy growing Turning Point wood in his nursery using grafted seedlings which will provide some of the Turning Point wood he will graft with in 2021. And if needed more wood can be taken from my grafted Turning Point seedlings currently growing on my property although it would be preferable to transplant them throughout the property. It doesn’t take much scion wood to graft a few trees but when hundreds are being made it becomes a different story. After watching the deer visit the Turning Point Apple tree every single day that weather allowed all winter, I just can’t get it out of my head what a great thing it would be if there were a hundred or even a few hundred Turning Point and other late holding Apple trees feeding the deer here throughout the winter. It is a stretch to make it happen but that’s the plan.

You are correct Homerj. It sure does look like Turning Point is two separate apple trees in the picture and that is typical of wild trees. But again pictures can be deceiving. The tree trunk that looks to be two feet to the left of Turning Points main trunk is actually the trunk of the second Apple tree that is 6 1/2 feet beyond. In the picture though it looks to be on the same plane.

The different Apple sizes occur on all three main stems with the small size being in the minority. All other indicators like drop time, disease resistance, leaf color, tree height, tree growth, etc. are identical. I’m thinking the Turning Point tree could have at one time been run over by a tractor, skidder or bulldozer when the field was created many years ago. It could then have been brush hogged a few times and/or eaten down by deer. And eventually from its roots some sprouts somehow grew ahead of the deer(maybe during a low deer year). Turning Points‘ late holding, slow dropping characteristic is extremely rare in this area. And the idea of two seeds falling together having the same genetic makeup which are different than the other 3,000 apple trees on this property while possible is a huge long shot.

 

[Oaknut]

Chainsaw,

I love detailed information like this on trees that I am going to plant, it makes the experience more interesting.

Thanks

 

[Oaknut]

Chainsaw,

Any chance you could take a look at Turning Point with your binoculars and give us an update on how the fruit is coloring up?

Thanks

 

[Chainsaw]

Oak Nut, while taking pictures of the Turning Point apples yesterday, also took a different angle of the lower trunk of Turning Point. You can see better by this pic how the tree was likely coppiced when it was young.

Here is a pic. Of Turning Point apples on the west side of tree.
And here pics from the east side of Turning Point which are shaded.

Forgot to taste one-Will pick one next time I go by it. (Pictures in this post taken Oct. 01, 2020)

 

[Oaknut]

Chainsaw,

Great photos, thank you.

 

[homerj]

For a yellow/green apple there isn't much visible flyspeck or sooty blotch. I assume this tree doesn't get fungicide/insecticide sprays?

 

[Chainsaw]

For a yellow/green apple there isn't much visible flyspeck or sooty blotch. I assume this tree doesn't get fungicide/insecticide sprays?

Correct, no sprays ever. I have not in the past noticed either Sooty Blotch nor Flyspeck on Turning Point. However until I looked it up just now I didn’t even know what it was. The tree six and a half feet from Turning Point has a lot of Sooty Blotch(mild looking though) while Turning Point has very, very little. As mentioned it was an extremely dry year so it is surprising that the tree near Turning Point has it on most apples as articles state it is most prevalent in wetter years. An advantage Turning Point had was it being so thoroughly trimmed last winter so it enjoyed plenty of air flow this summer. Now that I have an idea of what the fungus looks like I’ll watch for it in future years.

Flyspeck as shown in the article just read does not show on either tree. As I am out and about I’ll check a bunch of trees with yellow/green apples and see how much flyspeck if any shows on the apples and how much Sooty Blotch there is as well. Does Flyspeck and Sooty Blotch come from the same fungus? I couldn’t tell from the descriptions?

 

[homerj]

Does Flyspeck and Sooty Blotch come from the same fungus?

I believe so, my understanding is that they come from a number of similar fungi. Do you have a lot of wild blackberry or raspberry around? Brambles are a source of overwintering fungi. Quite interesting that Turning Point isn't impacted. Flyspeck/sooty blotch impact most any apple if the conditions are right, but they are more visible on yellow/green fruit than on deep red fruit.

 

[Chainsaw]

Homerj, You are On target with the blackberries; there are thousands and thousands of blackberry stems and maybe even millions and millions of them.

 

[Chainsaw]

With hunting season now underway Ryan from Blue Hill Wildlife Nursery and I have taken the final measurements of our grafted Turning Point trees to see which one of us grew the largest seedlings. For a while mine were well ahead of Ryan’s but that turned around in July and Mine never caught up. Ryan’s Turning Point seedlings final measurement was five to six feet with many having over a half inch or slightly more diameter measurement when measured above the graft. His seedling size was very consistent. The first picture are Ryan’s grafted Turning Point seedlings;


Next is a picture of my seedlings as of yesterday. Many of them measure over five feet in height but are smaller in diameter mostly running from 1/4 inch to 3/8 inch with a single one being 7/16 inch. We both had severe droughts but Ryan started watering before it was too late where I kept hoping for our usual thunderstorms and they never came. By the time I started watering the leaves had already waxed over and halted transpiration and I just never caught up after that. My seedling sizes were very inconsistent possibly due to using a few different rootstocks.
note-all of the trees in the above picture not tagged are Turning Point seedlings grown here in Ellisburg, NY.
It was fun to compete with Ryan even though I was outgunned but hopefully Ryan will agree to a Turning Point growing rematch for the 2021 growing season. I think with a few changes my seedlings next year will be much better barring any surprises.

 

[rocksnstumps]

That is some pretty nice growth. What kind of rootstock did Ryan use? I have a couple turning point ordered for next spring.

I can get growth sometimes approaching that with crab apple seedlings on my soils. I have only a small sample size of 5 trees but B118 has not impressed me that much. Modest growth yes but nothing really vigorous.

 

[Chainsaw]

Ryan used seedling rootstock and some of it was Dolgo for sure. Likely he used Antonovka as well but I’m not sure about that. I’ll ask him. My better ones were on Antonovka versus the clonal rootstocks. I didn’t have any Dolgo. Although Ryan had excellent growth it was accomplished during a rare drought year. If he of had normal rains his trees would have been even better. Ryan has a blog on his website showing the different root growths of clonal versus seedling rootstocks.
Here it is for those that may have missed it.

Video Gallery

An assortment of videos relating to our trees, seedlings and treepro products

bluehillwildlifenursery.com

Once there just click on the video-Dolgo rootstock