sandbur
5 year old buck +
I get very little scion on heavy production years, also.
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Apples,apples and more apples
- Thread starter Chainsaw
- Start date
I get very little scion on heavy production years, also.
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Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
I'm getting the feeling that every tree to be used for serious scion production needs to have some of that tree trimmed the winter before. Most of the trees trimmed last winter have grown some pretty nice scions. Not all of the trimmed trees will meet the demand for scions but one tree can only produce so many scions even at maximum scion growth.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
I don't remember who said it (on here?) or where I read it , but ................ I remember receiving info that pruning the year before you want scion helps to produce more good scion wood & water sprouts suitable for grafting. I've done that just to try it and I got some really good water sprouts and shoot growth on limbs. It seems to work from my own simple tests.
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
With the lower impact hunting styles of the last few years, very little to zero time is spent in some of the apple tree areas during November. Thus trees that were released during logging a few years ago have not since been viewed during November. Conditions were perfect the last few days to search for and possibly discover trees that might have benefitted from the logging and held fruit thru November. There is three inches of snow and the deer are getting hungry. So on Saturday I followed deer trails in the snow thru Apple tree areas for two hours. Out of the two hundred or so trees passed were some that looked fantastic with nice clean bark and bent over limbs as if they had held a lot of apples. None however had apples on them and the deer while walking thru the trees did not stop to search under any of the trees. Still one tree was so healthy looking and bent over that it was marked and recorded as one to watch with a camera next year.
On Sunday more deer trails were followed in other apple tree areas; Worse than Saturdays’ search, although the deer trails continually brought me through apple tree areas, not only were zero trees holding found but the trees generally had less than pristine bark and no signs of having carried heavy loads of apples thru the fall.
On Monday the search results changed big time! The day started off with a dramatic sunrise.
Not having seen the sun in a few days this was a big deal. A two hour walk following deer trails that afternoon brought me to eight apple trees still holding that I was previously unaware of. Further five of those trees had trails coming to them from one or more additional directions And the snow further showed significant searching activity in those same five trees. All trees were marked and recorded so they could be found again. Spurred on by such success I kept following trails well beyond sunset. And then just as the day had begun so spectacularly, it repeated itself with the moon reflecting enough light to keep on tracking. I pushed forward another half hour with high expectations but there were no more surprise apple trees found. Still it was the day of days with eight trees still holding discovered and five of them showing signs of being very special. I went to sleep enthused about what trees might be found the next day, today Tuesday, January 26, 2021.
The day started off sunny but cold;I had errands to run so that was fine. When it was time for my deer trailing walk a fast
moving snow storm moved in. And thus a perfect deer trailing/super apple tree search period came to a halt. So I switched modes and practiced cutting and making whip and tongue grafts.
Willow cuttings were used for practice;It is harder to cut clean but the one year growth is large and long so it made for good practice wood. Thirty Nine practiced grafts of what I judged as successful were completed. An additional six grafts were absolute failures for sure, wiggly and loose. The thirty-nine though were tight and had not a wiggle in them when put under serious pressure. It took quite a while but good practice takes just as much time as good for real grafting. Speed will come eventually.
I’m hoping that deer trails can be walked tomorrow in pursuit of finding more apple trees still holding but the forecast is for more snow which makes for slow going, too slow going. So with that window likely shut tomorrow we’ll work on other aspects of apples, apples and more apples. There is lots to do before spring planting of ordered trees and transplanting of some of last years grafted trees.
On Sunday more deer trails were followed in other apple tree areas; Worse than Saturdays’ search, although the deer trails continually brought me through apple tree areas, not only were zero trees holding found but the trees generally had less than pristine bark and no signs of having carried heavy loads of apples thru the fall.
On Monday the search results changed big time! The day started off with a dramatic sunrise.
Not having seen the sun in a few days this was a big deal. A two hour walk following deer trails that afternoon brought me to eight apple trees still holding that I was previously unaware of. Further five of those trees had trails coming to them from one or more additional directions And the snow further showed significant searching activity in those same five trees. All trees were marked and recorded so they could be found again. Spurred on by such success I kept following trails well beyond sunset. And then just as the day had begun so spectacularly, it repeated itself with the moon reflecting enough light to keep on tracking. I pushed forward another half hour with high expectations but there were no more surprise apple trees found. Still it was the day of days with eight trees still holding discovered and five of them showing signs of being very special. I went to sleep enthused about what trees might be found the next day, today Tuesday, January 26, 2021.
The day started off sunny but cold;I had errands to run so that was fine. When it was time for my deer trailing walk a fast
moving snow storm moved in. And thus a perfect deer trailing/super apple tree search period came to a halt. So I switched modes and practiced cutting and making whip and tongue grafts.
Willow cuttings were used for practice;It is harder to cut clean but the one year growth is large and long so it made for good practice wood. Thirty Nine practiced grafts of what I judged as successful were completed. An additional six grafts were absolute failures for sure, wiggly and loose. The thirty-nine though were tight and had not a wiggle in them when put under serious pressure. It took quite a while but good practice takes just as much time as good for real grafting. Speed will come eventually.
I’m hoping that deer trails can be walked tomorrow in pursuit of finding more apple trees still holding but the forecast is for more snow which makes for slow going, too slow going. So with that window likely shut tomorrow we’ll work on other aspects of apples, apples and more apples. There is lots to do before spring planting of ordered trees and transplanting of some of last years grafted trees.
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
The grafting practice has continued for a short period each evening. Last year during and after grafting, the buckets of grafted rootstock would need to be moved for one reason or another. And when moved, inevitably the bucket handle or my hand would bump some grafts and loosen them. Some of those loosened grafts took but many did not. Thus the thrust of this practice grafting is to make grafts that are strong enough to take a few hits now and then and still stay solid. Practice has not gotten near perfect grafts yet but the strength part of the graft is steadily improving. In order to test the strength of the grafts I decided to lay them on the ground and drive my F-150 over the grafts.
After scraping the snow away from in front of the tire I put six grafts down side by side and drove over them, stopped for a few minutes with the tire on top of them and then went back and forth driving over them again.
It was cold outside so I brought the ran over scions in the barn to look them over.
Testing the smallest one first which was just under 3/16 thick was disappointing as it now was wiggly.However the other five grafts ranging in size from 3/16 inch to 5/16 inch were as solid as could be, not a wiggle to be had. So, almost there but it is back to the practice table for a few more evenings to practice more on the lower diameter scions. and then ready or not wire cutting begins. There are a lot of cages to be cut before spring planting.
After scraping the snow away from in front of the tire I put six grafts down side by side and drove over them, stopped for a few minutes with the tire on top of them and then went back and forth driving over them again.
It was cold outside so I brought the ran over scions in the barn to look them over.Testing the smallest one first which was just under 3/16 thick was disappointing as it now was wiggly.However the other five grafts ranging in size from 3/16 inch to 5/16 inch were as solid as could be, not a wiggle to be had. So, almost there but it is back to the practice table for a few more evenings to practice more on the lower diameter scions. and then ready or not wire cutting begins. There are a lot of cages to be cut before spring planting.
Attachments
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Greyphase, I am testing out different tapes including Parafilm, Buddy graft tape, Bio-graft tape and any others I might stumble across. So far I have only have Bio-graft and Parafilm on hand. Buddy tape should arrive in a day or two. The tape used in the picture is 30 MM Bio-graft tape. The Parafilm I have now is about 25 MM. When I pull either of those two wider tapes extra tight they become narrower but not too narrow and both are giving me a nice tight finish.
Last year using the 1/2 inch size Parafilm (almost 13 mm), pulling the tape extra tight the tape became very narrow as it stretched, too narrow. It took a lot of wrapping and didn't produce the snugness I'm getting now with the wider tapes on most of the practice grafts. For now I'm sticking to tapes that claim to either unwind or simply disintegrate over time on their own. Thus I have not tried electrical tape that many on the forum are using. What type of tape is working for you the best?
greyphase
5 year old buck +
I've used the 1 inch wide parafilm for the past 7 years with good results. Mostly cleft grafts but sometimes whip and tongue when the scion and rootstock diameter match up. I put 12-15 finished grafts in 5 gallon buckets of damp sawdust and always lean them to the opposite side of the bucket from the handle so when I move them they are not damaged by the handle. I learned that the hard way. 
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Started serious scion collecting there days ago just two days too early. The first day, It was cloudy and cold and the second day it was the same but with a little ice coming down. Never the less it was still great to get a little exercise. The target tree was only about three hundred yards from the sunroom so I chose to skip the snowshoes. This tree would require a little climbing and taking the snowshoes off and putting them back on is a pain in the field. Yesterday, the day after, dawned bright and beautiful. My meandering trail through the snow looks like a drunk guy left it but it was simply a sign of my being a little out of shape. Pushing through the snow was really tough but It sure did clean out the old lungs.
A main stem had been trimmed out of this tree about five years ago and about twenty-five super water sprouts resulted. Additionally the tree was fertilized twice last year and watered twice as well. It made for easy scion collecting. Here are the shoots collected on the second day prior to trimming the scions out.
And here are the scions all trimmed just prior to wrapping them up and putting them in storage. It was a pretty good haul. Additionally a little trimming was done to the tree to thin it out to promote new growth for next years scion collecting as well as to put some of the excess branches down for the deer.
Tossed the trimmings outside and the local bunnies dined in style as if it were spring again.
Any forum members within driving distance of the eastern end of Lake Ontario wanting to learn apple tree grafting are welcome. I’ll be collecting scions over the next month or so and will then be grafting. I have only grafted for one year but I have enough experience to help anyone get well started at least. I have all the stuff here needed; the only thing anyone would need to bring is a pair or two of no-cut gloves unless they would want to learn the hard way; Then they can skip the no-cut gloves.
A main stem had been trimmed out of this tree about five years ago and about twenty-five super water sprouts resulted. Additionally the tree was fertilized twice last year and watered twice as well. It made for easy scion collecting. Here are the shoots collected on the second day prior to trimming the scions out.
And here are the scions all trimmed just prior to wrapping them up and putting them in storage. It was a pretty good haul. Additionally a little trimming was done to the tree to thin it out to promote new growth for next years scion collecting as well as to put some of the excess branches down for the deer.
Tossed the trimmings outside and the local bunnies dined in style as if it were spring again.
Any forum members within driving distance of the eastern end of Lake Ontario wanting to learn apple tree grafting are welcome. I’ll be collecting scions over the next month or so and will then be grafting. I have only grafted for one year but I have enough experience to help anyone get well started at least. I have all the stuff here needed; the only thing anyone would need to bring is a pair or two of no-cut gloves unless they would want to learn the hard way; Then they can skip the no-cut gloves.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
Snow & ice off the Eastern end of Lake Ontario??
What variety of tree is it that the scion came from?? The haul looks great! Bunnies did well from your trimmings - nothing goes to waste.
What variety of tree is it that the scion came from?? The haul looks great! Bunnies did well from your trimmings - nothing goes to waste.
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Actually it was not that much snow or ice. It doesn't take that much to slow me down as it used to.Snow & ice off the Eastern end of Lake Ontario??
What variety of tree is it that the scion came from?? The haul looks great! Bunnies did well from your trimmings - nothing goes to waste.
The tree the scions came from and the picture showed only one day of two days of cuttings, is an un-named variety that Ryan picked out from our jungle of wild apple trees. It is a late October drop that ends Mid November at the latest. He wanted one to replace a named variety with a similar drop timeframe that had shown to have a flaw, disease resistance wise. Apparently the drop fits the timeframe of a lot of the bowhunting seasons and Ryan liked how clean the tree was at the same time and that it was a pretty consistent producer each year. I'll leave it up to him to fully describe it.
This year for my property I will be grafting a few each of the best late hangers but will be focusing on growing as many Turning Points as possible to transplant here. In addition I will be be trimming Sweet November, Big Ten, Lockdown Crab and one un-named crab very hard so that they might produce scions for my next years grafting for my property. Ryan will grow some out for his scions for those trees he grows this year for next year. The unnamed crab is a crazy late hanging tree with thousands or millions even, of fruit spurs on it. It grows in the woods shaded all over yet produces more fruit than anything I have ever seen yet there is not a single useable scion to be cut. It is just insane how much fruit it produces. Hopefully trimming it hard in a small section will result in some useable scion wood next year.
The bunnies are a source of interest here in the winter; their tracks somehow give confirmation to us that we at least are not alone living in this snow covered world every winter.
chummer
5 year old buck +
They better watch out for Daisy or they will be a bunny snack.
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
I'm hoping you will be coming over to do some grafting together this spring. With you being a Covid survivor and us being vaccinated we can graft inside, without masks and can even do a few shots to celebrate to celebrate the 2020 hunting season.
chummer
5 year old buck +
I'm sure that can be arranged. After last year's failure I have 19 rootstock ready to go. I must say it is very liberating to not worry about covid. Parents got their second shot so we are starting to look forward to planning things again. Hopefully I will be closing on that property before 3/1 and I have a new plot started that will be planted with late droppers. If schools open I would dare say we are heading for normalcy. I have a great tree with decent size apples that was dropping in January. It is in the urgent cares landscaping. I will graft a couple and see if they are zone 3 material.
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Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Great Chummer, I'm counting on it. I can guarantee you that we can make grafts that will hold up to bumps and bangs and even driving over them with a truck three times; Twenty degree temps for three days in a row after we put them outside with leaves open is another story. We just need to be patient in getting them in the ground this season and we will have some great trees. The schools not open defies logic.
chummer
5 year old buck +
I think mine got too much sun. They were all growing great until July then the died off one by one. The one survivor has to be something special.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
Anything on this list worth having for “deer apples” and why?
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sandbur
5 year old buck +
Anything on this list worth having for “deer apples” and why?
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MDHA list?
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sandbur
5 year old buck +
I would plant Norland and Haralred.
Both are on my recommended list for my location at the Zone 3-4 junction.
I want to give wodarz a try and might have some scion coming this spring but that is more for my own use.
I favor apple crabs and not larger apples for deer.
Norland is extremely hardy and is my current choice for a late July to mid August apple for deer feed. If you have plenty of clover or other feed during that time period, it may not be needed. The fruit is just a bit larger than an apple crab( a bit over two inches).
If you have room for 6-8 trees to feed deer over a 7 month period, it would be the early season choice for one tree.
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