Apple Seed Germination Question?

[Tree Spud]

Thought I would post to seed if anyone can assist ... any feedback or recommendations would be appreciated.

I picked some apples from a farmers tree, extracted & cleaned seeds, then stored over winter in a jar in the freezer.

Took them out and stored in a damp paper towel in a zip lock for 60 days in the frig.

Planted in peat seed stater in a moist enclosed seed starter under a grow light.

I also took some seeds directly out of the freezer and planted the same way.

After 30 days nothing has germinated.

What am i doing wrong and what is normal germination time?

 

[chickenlittle]

I would not have put them in the freezer. Too cold to stratify and might damage them.

60 days may not be enough in the fridge.

 

[Tree Spud]

I would not have put them in the freezer. Too cold to stratify and might damage them.

60 days may not be enough in the fridge.

We have over 100 days of freezing temps here every winter. How do they survive in the wild?

 

[chickenlittle]

Do they freeze in the wild, yes. Are they shocked room temp to -10F in a few minutes? No. Does it hurt? I'm not sure. I know it doesn't help and doesn't stratify so I don't put seeds in the freezer.

 

[Turkey Creek]

They may have dried out too much in the freezer. If they havent molded at this point I would remove some from the soil mix, soak them for 3-4 hours, put them back in the fridge for a couple of weeks and try those seeds again. I have found that moisture content is very important in seed, acorn, etccc germination.

 

[Tree Spud]

All I've ever done with apple seeds is - eat the apple, pull the seeds out, clean off any pulp, throw in ziploc bag with a very lightly moistened paper towel, place in coldest part of my beer fridge...wait until spring. Some will likely have started to grow roots by then, but IME that doesn't really matter. Just plant them root down and be careful to not break the root.

I like simple ... Stu ... what is the typical germination period you see with apple seeds?

 

[Tree Spud]

They may have dried out too much in the freezer. If they havent molded at this point I would remove some from the soil mix, soak them for 3-4 hours, put them back in the fridge for a couple of weeks and try those seeds again. I have found that moisture content is very important in seed, acorn, etccc germination.

TC ... that was one of my concerns. The seed starter pots stay very moist, but I will try pre-soaking them and see if that improves results ...

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I've only ever done this once, 2 years ago. I did what Stu did and they germinated. Little white root radicals popped out with no additional care.

 

[yoderjac]

We have over 100 days of freezing temps here every winter. How do they survive in the wild?

I'm not sure how much of this if any applies to apple seeds, but if you scroll down and find the video I posted on nut grafting on this thread: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/grafting-chestnuts.6875/page-2 and watch it, you will eventually see the same question asked about chestnut cold stratification.

The video is quite long, so I'll summarize the answer they gave for chestnuts. Evidently when chestnuts fall in autumn, temperatures fluctuate and this warming and cooling causes chemical changes in the nut so that freezing does not kill them. They also mentioned that squirrels tend to "plant" nuts an inch or so deep. However if you put chestnuts in your freezer where they freeze hard, it will kill most of the nuts.

The point is that we only approximate certain features of nature when we simulate it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Redneck]

I have grown apple and wild crab apple seeds for the past 2 years with 98% sucess. I wash my seed and wrap it in a damp paper towel. Stick that in a ziplock bag and place in the fridge. Check on them every few weeks for mold and radicals, when I see enough radicals for a tray I plant them in rootmaker 18s and let them grow

 

[yoderjac]

Apple seeds don't really need cold stratification. I saw an old study where they used a number of germination methods with warm and cold periods and compared results. All methods showed fair to very good germination. The sweet spot in terms of high germination rates for the least time was 30 days in the fridge. Chestnuts, on the other hand, need 60 to 90 days of cold stratification with high moisture content. As moisture content drops stratification slows and if it drops low enough, it stops.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[chickenlittle]

The only old study I've seen comparing germination rates showed poor germination after room temperature moist stratification and best when moist stratified just above freezing. Certainly lots of literature in recent years about the chemical reactions that take place for apple seeds to break dormancy.

 

[yoderjac]

I've known lots of people that have tried growing apples from seed with no luck when they put them directly in the soil without giving them cold days but, maybe it's the southern soils or something that works for Jack?

The old study I read, can't recall where right now, was probably from the teens. It could be the same study chickenlittle is referring to. "Poor" verses "Fair" I guess is a characterization. I can't recall the actual number but what he says tracks with my memory that the worst method was direct room temperature. The study looked at drying seed and not drying it, a warm period followed by a cold period, and things like that as I recall. The bottom line take-away is what chickenlittle said: Moist stratification just above freezing was best. My point was simply that when they looked at different periods of cold, it looked like 30 days of in the fridge was the sweet spot. Rates were very close to longer periods and did not require the extra time.

Persimmons are similar. You can get seeds to germinate without cold stratification, or scarification, but both increase germination rates. I think chestnut germination rates are zero without cold stratification. At least I've never seen any germinate without it nor have I read of anyone germinating them without it.

I was not suggest folks should just plant them directly. I don't. What I did was place them in Ziploc bags with very slightly damp long-fiber sphagnum for 30 days. (With chestnuts, I want the medium damp enough to maintain high humidity in the bag. With apples, I just want to ensure they don't dry out). I then planted them in mesh flats in promix. As soon as they produce a stem loop, I transplanted them to 18s. My germination rates varied with parent variety. Wickson and other diploid apples had high rates. Most triploid had low rates. For some reason Winesap (unless I got bags of apples mixed up) did very well. I did have a bag of Jonathan at the same time which is diploid and they look very similar visually so it is possible I mixed them up.

I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been. Some like chestnuts require cold stratification. Without it, germination rates are zero. Others like persimmons and apples can germinate without cold stratification but it does improve germination rates.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

By the way, the female parent of the seeds I've germinated (all using the method described in the previous post) include:
Wickson,
Winesap,
Jonathan,
Albemarle Pippin (Newton Pippin),
Suncrisp,
Arkansas Black

Thanks,

Jack

 

[sandbur]

Grand mother in laws way that worked for many. many years. Make apple pie, throw the apple seeds in the flower bed outside the door (Minnesota winters). Dig apple trees in about two years.

Sandbur way. Put in small pots buried in the garden. Cover seed with 1/4 inch of sand and put a screen over the top to keep , mice out. Dig out in the spring.

Refrigerator way seems much easier.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,

You said apple seeds really don't need old stratification. Now your saying 30 days.

Either way if the germination rate is poor with room temperature why do it? Your study is the only one I've heard of not stratifying the apple seeds.

The Shaker sect used to take apple seeds, a brick soaked in water and set them on the window sill with the brick on top of the seed. After a long winter they'd lift the brick and have germinated seeds ready to plant. This was before central heating and greenhouses . The rooms were cold enough all winter until the sun was warm enough to germinate the seed. The brick provided the moisture that the seed needed.

Once again, I may not have been clear. I said both. Apple seeds don't need cold stratification to germinate (according to that study) but cold stratification for 30 days significantly improved germination rates. I was not suggesting that folks should not cold stratify them. I was trying to differentiate between seeds like apple (which I've only read about) and persimmon (which I have hands on experience with) that will germinate without cold stratification even though germination rates may only be "fair" or "poor" depending on your characterization, and chestnuts which require cold stratification and essentially have a zero germination rate without it.

While I used the 30 day method in that old study and it worked very well for me, perhaps even shorter periods will work. Again, I'm going from memory here but I think the study was none, 30 days, 60 days, and 90 days. It may be that there is a period less than 30 days that could be just as effective as 30. Since currently most commercial apples are propagated by grafting to clonal rootstock, we don't see much on growing them from seed.

Thanks,

Jack