After the shot - your experience

[Tap]

Keep in mind that Luminol is not recommended for use on wet or visible blood. When you shoot a deer and trail it within an hour or two, you will have wet, visible blood or no blood. When you watch those CSI type things on TV, they are typically trying to detect trace blood after it has been cleaned up. They don't use it when blood is fresh.

So, I think the proper application of Luminol would be on difficult blood trails. Let's take my recent trail for example: (Description of blood trail)

Let's say that I did not hear that deer crash and that I was not confident in my shot placement. When I got to the place where she entered the pines, I would have marked it as I did and I still would have headed back to the barn. If I got 20 to 30 yards into the woods and did not find any blood (which is what happened), I would have backed out, gone back to camp, and waited 4 to 6 hours thinking it may have been a paunch shot deer.

At this point, I think tiny blood spots would have had plenty of time to dry. Perhaps larger, higher volume, drops of blood may not but if I had those, I would not need luminol as I could see them. So, had I sprayed along that trail, I may have found tiny spec of blood glowing. When I had gotten to the place where I did first find a few spots of visible blood I definitely should have had glow.

My thinking here comes from looking at the science of luminol and how it is used in forensics, not from experience using it. Tap, does this seem consistent with your conversations with Jerry describing use?

Thanks,

Jack

1st, I never recall reading, or Jerry saying, that blood need to dry. In fact, that puzzles me. If luminol doesnt work until the blood is dry, then why does it work so well on wet, rained out blood trails?
Its been many years since I spoke with Jerry about its use, but as I remember, you spray a mist along the trail ahead of where blood diminishes to the point it can't be seen and only spray as often as needed in order to maintain the trail.
At junctions when we dont know what trail the deer took, we spray to check each trail.
Personally, THE main reason why I bought luminol is for rain. I always had anxiety during late afternoon with rain in the night forecast. I often quit early for fear of a rained out trail. Ive never NEEDED luminol for a rained out trail (knock on wood) but our test trails were amazing after they were rained on.

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[Tap]

I've heard Jerry say he guides youth hunts and in order to speed up recovery (because he often deals with multiple deer and doesn't have time to mess around) he will often immediately use luminol.
If that's the case, it doesn't sound like he is waiting hours for blood to dry.

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[yoderjac]

1st, I never recall reading, or Jerry saying, that blood need to dry. In fact, that puzzles me. If luminol doesnt work until the blood is dry, then why does it work so well on wet, rained out blood trails?
Its been many years since I spoke with Jerry about its use, but as I remember, you spray a mist along the trail ahead of where blood diminishes to the point it can't be seen and only spray as often as needed in order to maintain the trail.
At junctions when we dont know what trail the deer took, we spray to check each trail.
Personally, THE main reason why I bought luminol is for rain. I always had anxiety during late afternoon with rain in the night forecast. I often quit early for fear of a rained out trail. Ive never NEEDED luminol for a rained out trail (knock on wood) but our test trails were amazing after they were rained on.

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Tap,

Again, this is just from me looking into the science, not from practical experience, but maybe "dry" was not the right word. Maybe I should have used the word "Fresh". In forensics they specifically say they don't recommend using luminol on "wet or visible blood". I presume by wet they mean "fresh". This is different that a rain situation after the blood has dried. I'm not sure what effect rain would have on it other than watering down the luminol since you are mixing it with water anyway.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tap]

1st, I never recall reading, or Jerry saying, that blood need to dry. In fact, that puzzles me. If luminol doesnt work until the blood is dry, then why does it work so well on wet, rained out blood trails?
Its been many years since I spoke with Jerry about its use, but as I remember, you spray a mist along the trail ahead of where blood diminishes to the point it can't be seen and only spray as often as needed in order to maintain the trail.
At junctions when we dont know what trail the deer took, we spray to check each trail.
Personally, THE main reason why I bought luminol is for rain. I always had anxiety during late afternoon with rain in the night forecast. I often quit early for fear of a rained out trail. Ive never NEEDED luminol for a rained out trail (knock on wood) but our test trails were amazing after they were rained on.

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Tap,

Again, this is just from me looking into the science, not from practical experience, but maybe "dry" was not the right word. Maybe I should have used the word "Fresh". In forensics they specifically say they don't recommend using luminol on "wet or visible blood". I presume by wet they mean "fresh". This is different that a rain situation after the blood has dried. I'm not sure what effect rain would have on it other than watering down the luminol since you are mixing it with water anyway.

Thanks,

Jack

Regardless of how we define it...wet, fresh, or whatever, Im still puzzled why luminol wont work on fresh stuff. It has hemoglobin in it, doesn't it? Im not disagreeing with you, but it is something I dont understand WHY.
I know why it works better after a rain, and I guess "better" is not the right term. More "visible" is probably more accurate. The rain spreads the hemoglobin out more so the size of each glow is larger.
Thanks for your research, Jack.

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[yoderjac]

Regardless of how we define it...wet, fresh, or whatever, Im still puzzled why luminol wont work on fresh stuff. It has hemoglobin in it, doesn't it? Im not disagreeing with you, but it is something I dont understand WHY.
I know why it works better after a rain, and I guess "better" is not the right term. More "visible" is probably more accurate. The rain spreads the hemoglobin out more so the size of each glow is larger.
Thanks for your research, Jack.

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I wouldn't call it research, just poking around, and I'm finding some conflicting stuff. I found this interesting FBI analysis of latent blood detection: https://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/luminol-and-the-crime-scene-8-91.pdf

I found some luminol sprays being sold as CSI kits that specifically says not intended for use on "wet or visible blood". An then I found this link where the claim this product works on fresh blood or old blood: https://www.bluestar-forensic.com/ Look at the last bullet on the left near the bottom of the page under Extreme Performance.

As I'm trying to wrap my head around all this (and chemistry is not my strong suit), I'm beginning to think the specifics of the other chemicals in the reagent mix are playing a role. As you say, the aging of the "activator" chemicals may play a role as well. All this makes me anxious to get my hands on my order and find some time to play with the stuff.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tap]

Regardless of how we define it...wet, fresh, or whatever, Im still puzzled why luminol wont work on fresh stuff. It has hemoglobin in it, doesn't it? Im not disagreeing with you, but it is something I dont understand WHY.
I know why it works better after a rain, and I guess "better" is not the right term. More "visible" is probably more accurate. The rain spreads the hemoglobin out more so the size of each glow is larger.
Thanks for your research, Jack.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I wouldn't call it research, just poking around, and I'm finding some conflicting stuff. I found this interesting FBI analysis of latent blood detection: https://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/luminol-and-the-crime-scene-8-91.pdf

I found some luminol sprays being sold as CSI kits that specifically says not intended for use on "wet or visible blood". An then I found this link where the claim this product works on fresh blood or old blood: https://www.bluestar-forensic.com/ Look at the last bullet on the left near the bottom of the page under Extreme Performance.

As I'm trying to wrap my head around all this (and chemistry is not my strong suit), I'm beginning to think the specifics of the other chemicals in the reagent mix are playing a role. As you say, the aging of the "activator" chemicals may play a role as well. All this makes me anxious to get my hands on my order and find some time to play with the stuff.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack, Check your PM.

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[35-acre]

Another thought. Waiting overnight isn't always the best idea. Turns out she only went 80 yards. I didn't find that out until this morning.

 

[swat1018]

Another thought. Waiting overnight isn't always the best idea. Turns out she only went 80 yards. I didn't find that out until this morning.View attachment 26755

Very true...

 

[yoderjac]

Yep, that is where experience and judgment come in. High fox and coyote populations are a consideration. The question isn't always how far did she go, but how far would have she gone if pushed. We can collect a lot of information for that judgment based on what we see at the shot along with the arrow and blood. However, our observations are often mistaken. A while back, I did a bunch of self-videoing bowhunts. Replaying the shot showed me just how much of what I thought I saw could be wrong.

In general, here are my personal rules:

- See the deer run and crash - Immediate
- Shot looks good, good deer reaction, and if I do or don't hear crash - Check arrow immediately
- Arrow looks good, - Wait 30 minutes.
- Shot looks far back or whiff of paunch or deer humps up or walks and lays down in sight - Back out wait 4 hours.

The only time I wait until the next day is after I've decided to trail and lost the trail and can't find it again, or jumped the deer. Typically half the night is over before I call it a night. That leaves less time for predators to find and scavenge it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[35-acre]

I think that I shot her through the heart. Blood was red (not pink) and she was slightly quartering away when I shot. So, I figured close lung, heart and offside shoulder. I was nearly level with her. But I was expecting to see pink foam and a walking blood trail in the field. Because this was absent, I was initially going to wait an hour. Then I decided to wait over night, thinking maybe I hit liver and far side lung and shoulder.

I do have bear cubs on my cams, I could not find a track near the carcass but it was dragged 20 yards or so. Not sure if it was yotes or not. We have some but this is a first for me.

 

[swat1018]

I shot a big doe a couple nights ago. I was elevated, but not as high as usual, about 18'. I picked the spot I'd shoot by judging where the perfect exit wound would be, and aimed accordingly. I watched my lighted nock disappear right where I had aimed. I had my video camera on a tripod aimed perfectly, expecting the same scenario, but when the time came, never hit record. What seems to make trails more difficult for me is when there are other deer close. When you shoot a deer and it takes off, they always runner harder, longer, when there is another deer with them. I always wait at least an hour, unless I see it dead. I went to the cabin and took off my hunting clothes, and grabbed a light and some TP. I was on the edge of thick CRP and within 10 yards of the shot, she was out of sight with the other deer. Long story short, she went a little bit before she dropped any amount of blood. Just specks, largely because she was running so hard. It was a tough track, for no good reason. Sometimes a particular deer just has the will to live. The blood never got great, and I knew she was about dead by the way the track started to wander and turn for no apparent reason. This is always a sign that they'll be dead close, and she was. Looking at the entry/exit wounds I never would have guessed she could have gone that far and left the kind of blood she did. Sometimes everything can be right with mother nature, and you just get what you get.

 

[Bill]

Another thought. Waiting overnight isn't always the best idea. Turns out she only went 80 yards. I didn't find that out until this morning.View attachment 26755

Yeah that sucks! But remember if it’s the buck of a lifetime and you’re not sure of the hit.

Coyotes don’t eat antlers and I’d rather find them than nothing at all.

 

[ksgobbler]

Shot a big fat doe tonight. 2 blade rage at about 11 yards. Shot her and she mule kicked. Waited 30 min and climbed down. Arrow stuck in ground with what I call darker blood. No blood I could find. Backed out and called the neighbor who has a blood trailing dog. We really found nothing first 50 yards. 75 we found some then it quit. Got to about 100 and it looked like an axe murder with bright red blood. We recovered her and shot was right in the boiler room. What gives?

 

[swat1018]

Shot a big fat doe tonight. 2 blade rage at about 11 yards. Shot her and she mule kicked. Waited 30 min and climbed down. Arrow stuck in ground with what I call darker blood. No blood I could find. Backed out and called the neighbor who has a blood trailing dog. We really found nothing first 50 yards. 75 we found some then it quit. Got to about 100 and it looked like an axe murder with bright red blood. We recovered her and shot was right in the boiler room. What gives?

I've shot 3 arrows at 3 doe this year with Hypodermics. 2 died within sight, one still didnt bleed great. The other went about 120 yards with very spotty blood. A little piece of lung was plugging the lower exit wound. Starting to think a 3 blade that would make "flaps" vs. A "slit" might alleviate some of that. Still, hard to change heads when most deer I shoot die within view.

 

[yoderjac]

Shot a big fat doe tonight. 2 blade rage at about 11 yards. Shot her and she mule kicked. Waited 30 min and climbed down. Arrow stuck in ground with what I call darker blood. No blood I could find. Backed out and called the neighbor who has a blood trailing dog. We really found nothing first 50 yards. 75 we found some then it quit. Got to about 100 and it looked like an axe murder with bright red blood. We recovered her and shot was right in the boiler room. What gives?

The only way to tell is a post-mortem when you skin her. Look at entry and exit wounds. Since it looked like an ax murder near the end, I would presume something plugged the exit wound and finally let loose. You may not be able to tell that from teh post-mortem.

 

[Barndog56]

In previous years I've always aimed for a heart shot with bow and rifle. Last archery season I had two seperate hunts where I must have shot too low. White hairs and sparse blood at the shot, with a minimal blood trail that eventually dies out. Put our bloodhound on the trails and no luck, eventually there just wasn't anything for him to follow.

This season I've made a concerted effort to raise my point of aim a little higher and it's paid off. All 3 I've shot have been double lung, and the farthest one has made it is about 60 yards. No trailing needed as I've just had to walk to where I've heard them crash.

I should mention that the longest shot of the 3 was 20 yards, and with the 415 fps crossbow I haven't had to worry about string jumping.

 

[yoderjac]

In previous years I've always aimed for a heart shot with bow and rifle. Last archery season I had two seperate hunts where I must have shot too low. White hairs and sparse blood at the shot, with a minimal blood trail that eventually dies out. Put our bloodhound on the trails and no luck, eventually there just wasn't anything for him to follow.

This season I've made a concerted effort to raise my point of aim a little higher and it's paid off. All 3 I've shot have been double lung, and the farthest one has made it is about 60 yards. No trailing needed as I've just had to walk to where I've heard them crash.

I should mention that the longest shot of the 3 was 20 yards, and with the 415 fps crossbow I haven't had to worry about string jumping.

Don't kid yourself. You need to get close to 1,000 fps before arrow speed becomes too fast for a deer to jump the string.

 

[Barndog56]

Not kidding myself or anyone else either. As I said, the longest shot of the 3 was 20 yards. The sound will take about .05 seconds to get there, while the bolt takes about .15 seconds. So the deer has .1 second between sound and impact to react. A deer's reaction time is estimated at .05 seconds, so that leaves.05 seconds of string dropping time.

As I said, at less than 20 yards with a 415 fps xbow, it isn't a factor.

 

[yoderjac]

Not kidding myself or anyone else either. As I said, the longest shot of the 3 was 20 yards. The sound will take about .05 seconds to get there, while the bolt takes about .15 seconds. So the deer has .1 second between sound and impact to react. A deer's reaction time is estimated at .05 seconds, so that leaves.05 seconds of string dropping time.

As I said, at less than 20 yards with a 415 fps xbow, it isn't a factor.

A deer can drop quite a bit. I've got footage of a deer dropping 18" at 20 yards with an arrow traveling 250 fps. If you double that to 500 fps, you can cut the amount of possible drop in half. That are amazing creatures. I'm not saying deer will jump the string but they certainly can can. I'm glad it hasn't been an issue for you so far.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Kooch]

Another thought. Waiting overnight isn't always the best idea. Turns out she only went 80 yards. I didn't find that out until this morning.View attachment 26755

Kind of makes a guy hope he never falls down and dislocates his hip when he's alone at his property.