All Things Habitat - Lets talk.....

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The learning process...requests for permission...thoughts?

My Father-in-Law tells stories from when he was younger when all the neighbors would allow you to hunt their land, that doesn't happen anymore. It is kind of sad that doesn't happen anymore. I'm not sure the cause, higher population, smaller parcels, greed (not implying anybody here is greedy) maybe it is just a case of the good old days were better.
Kabic, we had a very similar situation where I grew up and started hunting. I posted a map once of all the areas we used to be able to hunt, and vs what we have left now would make you want to cry. It does me. Thing is, those lands are now posted by the owners for whatever reason, and it is what it is. I think a lot of it has to do with our sue happy society. Folks really didn't start doing that until the late 80's, at least not around us, and that is around the time things started to change with the use of private lands.
 
It's a learning curve for sure. In the 50 years we've had the property I can't recall of one person we let on for whatever reason hasn't took advantage. Just expect that. If you can live with it , that's perfectly up to you of course but, it gets very annoying in my opinion. For me, shutting the land down only to me and my immediate family was strictly a financial decision. Way back when, everybody hunted everywhere and land was just land. Nobody thought much about it and people just hunted open land. If a group of people got together and put on a deer drive, well that was just something that happened. Fast forward to today. Many things have changed and especially the cost to own and maintain land. I only own 120 but with taxes and plots plus upkeep I'm a bit over $3000 a year. I just can't justify jeopardizing hunting and use of the land the way I want to a guy who lives on a postage stamp in town who pays absolutely nothing. None of these people actually own any land, if they did it might be a different scenario but that has never been the case. I actually had a woman from town out riding her horse around my property once. She told me, quote. " This is the country, nobody owns it. it's open to everybody isn't it." I believe the vast majority of people have no idea what it costs these days to own land . They think it's free, I mean nobody owns land out in the country right? LOL.
 
So many great quotes here. Shawnv - you're right - within 2 miles or less there is the governor knowles state forest (thousands and thousands of public acres), the Danbury Wildlife refuge which is public hunting / 4-wheeling, and multiple smaller county pieces.

I have spent much time in all of those over the years. There is indeed wildlife in there, but the density is a fraction of what a habitat-maintained private piece is - hence why I made the investment I did. I also have to say it is common to run across dumps (literally) on those public lands - old mattresses, bags of garbage, furniture, you name it.

I also acknowledge those that lament the loss of being able to hunt private lands relatively freely. I've been there and felt that as well, and I've been the guy frustrated by that many times. Super interesting how when the shoe is on the other foot our perspectives can change.

This thread has really helped - I truly appreciate it.

I don't think I'm in the hole too far yet, which is good, but clearly I need to go into a different mode from here out and just be in lockdown.

Thanks again guys
 
This is why I very seldom, if ever, ask anyone for permission to hunt on their property. I don't like making guys feel like they are going to p!$$ me off or offend me if they tell me no. I don't usually even ask the guys I help with habitat projects because I know how much pressure is on their farms already. I have just come to the realization that I need to do my homework on the public ground I hunt until I am in a position to get a piece of my own. I don't like putting that kind of pressure on the landowner to have to tell me no.

Wiscwhip - one thing I have already learned big time is that these habitat projects are crazy hard work! If someone is helping me with those, the very least I can do is make sure they have a decent hunt opportunity with me as well. I have 2 close friends who have already devoted 2 weekends to me for this and busted their butts - they will shoot deer on this piece before I do!
 
Kpj - Just be cautious those 2 friends don't invite their couple friends and so on. I've seen it happen.

On the sue-happy society ....... A good way to prevent that from happening ( if you allow someone to hunt your land ) is to have them sign a " hold harmless " agreement that indemnifies you, and all your heirs and assigns - from any and ALL claims. If they don't sign ........ don't let them hunt. I've signed those kinds of papers myself before when hunting others' land. It's only right. If I fall out of a tree stand, or trip on a limb and break an ankle - it's not the landowner's fault. Cover your butt !!!
 
Kpj - Just be cautious those 2 friends don't invite their couple friends and so on. I've seen it happen.

On the sue-happy society ....... A good way to prevent that from happening ( if you allow someone to hunt your land ) is to have them sign a " hold harmless " agreement that indemnifies you, and all your heirs and assigns - from any and ALL claims. If they don't sign ........ don't let them hunt. I've signed those kinds of papers myself before when hunting others' land. It's only right. If I fall out of a tree stand, or trip on a limb and break an ankle - it's not the landowner's fault. Cover your butt !!!

Wisconsin already has a law that protects any landowner from liability up to the point of taking $2,000 a year in lease fees. If you receive more than that regardless of agreement you would need liability insurance.
 
kpj,

I am late to the party but good of you to share your land with the youth hunter.

Your answers to requests for using your land depend on what your goals are, why you bought and what you manage it for.

If you bought it to share with the public and your friends and family keep giving permission.

If you bought it to share with select friends and family, restrict access. If you haven't yet posted your land No Hunting/No Anything without permission, Violators will be prosecuted I would do that as soon as possible. You then need to follow through with violators, word will get around, same if you don't prosecute.

You have met your neighbors and others that formerly used the land you now own. My advice is to not grant pemission for anything anymore and then as time goes by you may loosen that policy. It is hard to get stricter after having a more open permission policy.

You have a lot of public land around you that the people seeking permission can go recreate on. Encourage them to do so.

When my wife and I purchased out 80 acres we put signs up letting people know it had been sold and for people to remove stand by a certain date. If anyone had any questions my number was on the sign for them to call. Just shy of 20 stands were removed from the property. It was private land but had been pillaged for years by anyone as the owners were not around and didn't care about the land as long as they got their rent check. I received no phone calls. A few people stopped by and asked but they were told no as we had plenty of friends and family who were going to be hunting already. I know the locals resent us with the exception of a couple. I really don't care. The only way they were going to "like" us is if we let them run our land like they used to. We have prosecuted all trespassers/poachers we have caught and now as far as I know we don't have the trespassing issues we had the first couple of years(did have a trespasser/poacher from the lease to the north of us on our land this year but the leasee won't give me his name, I got him on camera)

This past year we shared the 80 with 13 other hunters(family and friends), including two first timers. A 12 year old girl got her first deer and the 12 year old boy (first year deer hunting) didn't get a shot he was comfortable with. Both fathers were at the side of their child and made lifetime memories. My wife and I love to share what we have but our property would not be what it is today if we had not nipped the "public"usage in the bud at the beginning. We do dictate what blinds/stands the hunters are to use based on wind, am/pm, and time of year to minimize pressure felt by deer. None of hunters have the "run of the land" and they are fine with that. If they weren't they wouldn't be hunting our land.

Enjoy your land.
 
willy, thanks for sharing. The first thing I did was to post the property, I also included contact info on the signs. Interestingly, no one has contacted me using that info, only when they see me!

I also realized I didn't clearly state my goals for the property:

1. A place to truly practice habitat management and QDM. I know the 2 neighboring pieces owners (one 160-acre piece, and the other a 60) and they both practice pretty solid QDM so I actually think together we have a shot at it.
2. I had been spending at least $1,600 a year on leases myself prior to this, so I'd rather dump that money into my own place and have fun doing it. I have a 12-year old daughter who likes to shoot (has not killed anything yet) and I look at it as a lasting gift of experiences I can give her.
3. To lock up the 80 acres. Our cabin is just around the corner from this (literally 1/4 mile), and the timber company was planning to subdivide it for more residential/cabins. Our little paradise is just that now with not many people, and this helps keep it that way. (FYI the people with 60 acres I mentioned above are my cabin next-door neighbors). The current subdivision is just one dirt road with 2-acre lots on the water side and 3.5 acre lots on the non-water side. We have gotten to know just about everyone on the road - part of me trying to be the "nice guy" is that these are all the people that used to use that property! So I guess maybe I shouldn't feel so bad saying no as I'm doing everyone a favor by locking it up and not having 10 more cabins built in there.
 
Neighbors that own property should totally understand your "locking it down" as far as access goes as well. More than likely they don't have an open door either. If you use those goals to explain and defend your position against others accessing, anyone with any real sense should totally understand. If you have fellow QDM neighbors your headed in the right direction. Be sure to use that to your advantage as far as purchasing power is concerned as well. Lime, fertilizer, chemical and seed is always cheaper in larger quantities. Having good, like minded neighbors are worth their weight in gold.
 
I hate to be that guy and say it but I think you made a mistake giving permission to some already. If you draw a line and set the rules to everyone early on the word will get out and most will understand, although some won't be happy. Much easier to lock down the place right from the start vs trying to do so later after giving permission.
Hey guys, don't post here much but check in from time to time, I just recently purchased a 50 acre piece in NJ and have had many people approach me for permission. I think the best way is to lock the property down right from the beginning. People can and will take advantage. If you deer hunt and want any type of quality hunting, the property needs to be quiet. I posted my piece as soon as I bought it. I caught one of the locals and gave him the boot. Word travels quickly when property changes hands. Take care of it now or it will be a battle for a long time.
 
Also keep something in mind ...... If you post, you're only protecting what YOU paid for - the land and the right to hunt it, fish it, etc. YOU pay the taxes and upkeep on it. If someone trespasses and / or takes advantage somehow ...... THEY are the ones doing wrong - not you by putting up posters. If you choose to let someone hunt, and they follow all your rules - you've found an honest person and a true sportsman. Sadly - that seems to be rare these days.
 
A good fence makes great neighbors.

Way off topic, but the episode of Reno 911, where Junior participated in the Good Fences make Good Neighbors program was hilarious...He went to the border to help build the wall, only to see a hot girls on the other side running a taco stand and ended up on the wrong side of the fence. I'm probably lucky if 1-2 here have ever seen an ep of Reno 911....the quote just made me laugh thinking of it. Shame it eventually got cancelled
 
Way off topic, but the episode of Reno 911, where Junior participated in the Good Fences make Good Neighbors program was hilarious...He went to the border to help build the wall, only to see a hot girls on the other side running a taco stand and ended up on the wrong side of the fence. I'm probably lucky if 1-2 here have ever seen an ep of Reno 911....the quote just made me laugh thinking of it. Shame it eventually got cancelled
Hilarious show! I don't remember that particular episode though.
 
Reno 911! was pretty funny, but Lt. Dangle's shorts were just plain wrong!!!
But they gave him the mobility of a cheetah :p
 
But they gave him the mobility of a cheetah :p
Please tell me you aren't going to use that logic any time soon!:eek:;):D
 
I'll give you a few examples of how I've seen this stuff handled. I think it really depends on the situation. When my dad bought our stuff, there was a guy who hunted it and basically said "well I've been doing it for 10 years, so you don't have the right to tell me no." Obviously that kind of attitude wasn't going to fly, and after a few years he got the picture.

I am certainly someone who benefits from using land that I don't own (my dad owns our land, but I mean outside of the family). My neighbor has some 300 acres, and he hunts mainly on the complete oposite side. I also am right next to state land, and near one of two access points. He doesn't let me go INTO it and hunt, but we did set up a blind (with his permission and overview) that I can use. It is only 50-60 yards from his line. In between our properties is 100 feet that someone hunts. This person is a real pain for both of us. In this case, I act as eyes on this area for BOTH of our properties. He doesn't hunt it because he has MUCH better spots with MUCH less pressure. If he were, however, to want to go there, he would absolutely be friendly and say I'm going to sit it. It's still HIS land, and I understand that as his neighbor. This guy is also someone who has helped me with EVERYTHING in the way of hunting. He helped hang my first sets when I began bowhunting at 13. He helped me food plot using his tractor. My dad isn't really a hunter, and while he enjoys going out and sitting, the habitat stuff isn't his specialty. Both my neighbor and I benefit from this. When my neighbor goes to Florida (Jan-April) he lets me rabbit hunt. I look around for sheds and carcasses and let him know if I see anything out of place. He loves that I can enjoy it, and that I can keep an eye on it. Similarly, he lets my turkey hunt his whole property, except for his sanctuaries, in the spring. Same thing, he likes me getting out there and looking around. He's 70+, and although he still climbs in the bucket of his skidsteer to cut limbs, he's not as mobile as he once was.

I have a neighbor that has about one acre near the road. I have a stand about a hundred yards in off of the road. I have asked permission to walk his lot (basically down his driveway) to get to my stand that is 20-30 yards onto mine. He doesn't hunt it (although I think I did see him out there this winter, and he was perhaps on ours...). He said yes, and thanked me for asking. Now, I'm not hunting his land so this is different, but my only other way to get there is to make a hell of a trail through a nice thick area that regularly holds deer movement, OR walk right through the middle of my food plot. This is an evening stand, so many times I walk through the plot to get TO the stand, and then go out the back onto his.

We have another few acres in a swamp directly across the road from our main property. We then have an ajoining 100 feet, with another 300 foot section that is owned by someone else. They have owned this piece for decades, and don't use it at all. We offered to buy it from them, and they said no. We asked to hunt it, and they said ABSOLUTELY! Again, I'm benefiting from someone else allowing my use.

Now, these were all of ME and neighbors... so here is one for my BIL.

My brother in law's family grew up hunting a 40. They had pretty good neighbor's except for one that didn't let them go retrieve the first deer my BIL shot when he was 14. The deer was in view. Basically the guy was just a dick. My BIL's father offered the land up for spring gobbler season to youth. I'm not sure if he went with them or not. Now, he also lets his family hunt there. I think total there is 5-6 guys on there opening day of rifle. Needless to say, usually no more than 2 get a deer. His main goal of the land was not harvesting trophy deer, but rather to have it for his entire family to enjoy and spend time together. In this situation, it makes a bit more sense to allow people to use it, AT YOUR DISCRETION.

Now, as for what I would do in your situation. For me, I think there are a few things I would take into consideration. I am assuming that since you are open to entertaining the idea of letting anyone use it you want to be a friendly and generous neighbor. Not that you can't be that without letting them use it, but that is just the impression I'm getting. I might be completely wrong, and there is nothing wrong with the opposite. Although I don't really do it myself, this is what I would think about.

1. If I am to let anyone use it, it must be crystal clear that they play by my rules. As Nofo said, good fences make good neighbors, and I think one type of "fence" are clear and concise ground rules.

2.What are my goals for the property? Am I trying to grow insane racks and ONLY use this for hunting and not general recreation? Will I myself be doing other hunting?

3. What are they asking, how are they asking?
The big thing is are they being respectful of this. I know that as an owner you are under no obligation to help them. That being said, as someone who has benefited form others allowing my use, I know that being respectful, honest, and completely up front with what you are wanting to do goes a long way to their ability to fit you into their plans. If someone is going to be standoffish, then screw them.

4. Will what they are asking to do have an impact on you. I think you're already onto this one. Like in the case of the ATVs. Or the grouse hunting. I look at my neighbor allowing me to use his land to hunt. What I do there has little to nothing to do with the deer he sees in his other blind. He has more food, more cover, and a better setup. Now, if I get pictures of one of his big boys, I show them to him, and many times he says OK, now let's stay the hell out of there. In that case it might affect him, so he applies a different approach.



I think overall you get it. If you decide to let anyone in I think It then depends on the situation, who is asking, what they are asking, how they are asking, and how it will affect you. I the biggest thing is having non-negotiable ground rules that are dictated by you and will be enforced. You shouldn't have to, but make it easy for people to know what they are not to do. The rest you can feel out on a case by case basis. Don't hesitate to ask for some help with something. Someone needs to build a relationship with you in order for you to trust them, this is no different.

I know that I have different thoughts on this than some, but I always find that I enjoy my things more when I can see others finding joy in them as well. If I've got something I like, I'm usually more than happy to share it with someone, so long as it doesn't interfere with my own expectations.
So at the end of this long winded post I'd say that my advice would be to say nobody using it for hunting for at least the first year. Maybe special cases can apply for youth hunters or if you supervise them. You can use the "I want to get a sense of what is really here" line, and if they have a problem with that, then they can expect themselves to be removed from any and all consideration. The only WRONG answer is one that ambiguous and allows wiggle room for others to determine your rules.
 
Bad idea to let anyone in. I let a neighbor ride his ATV when he asked after I bought the place. Not too long after that the whole camp was riding through for what ever whenever including hunting seasons. Then once they learn the lay of the land it's hey this looks pretty nice!
 
When I bought my farm from my grandmother in 2007 it was open to all the neighbors. The farm is land locked so many of the neighbors used the gas line to cross to get to adjoining properties by 4wheeler or on foot. It also got hammered hard in hunting season. I have known some of these people for years prior to moving in. A few of my neighbors are good people and a few are not. When I took ownership I posted the property and shortly after most of my neighbors came and asked permission and I granted it with a few rules. I learned quickly if you give someone an inch they will take a mile. I had all kinds of these peoples relatives and friends hunting my property and riding ATVs through. I started throwing people out and would tell the neighbors when I saw them that permission was only granted for them and not there friends. This all seemed to fall on def ears because it kept happening. Finally last year I put up more posted signs as close together as I could to send a new message and put the word out again. The next 2 people I caught, on different occasions, I called the state police and they went and talked to the offenders I then put up a gate and blocked off all trails on the property lines. This past hunting season I caught a guy sneaking through the property and when I confronted him it was the same BS stories. As he was feeding me his line of crap I took his picture with my cell phone and turned him to the state boys only this time I pressed charges. It made me sick to put all the time, effort and money into habitat work especially sanctuaries only to have them violated during the most important time of year. I have learned that trying to be a nice guy got me nowhere and taken advantage of. This may not be your situation and I hope its not. I am lucky enough not to be an absentee land owner and that helps. Congratulations and Good luck to you with your new place.
 
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