The 4.5 year old buck

[Brian662]

I think the takeaway is concentrate on food, cover and age and let the chips fall where they may.

Exactly. It's really all we can control in a wild herd. Trigger control may be the most important aspect of it all, but that's where neighbor's come in and the water gets muddy.

 

[Bill]

Cull…I need an excuse to shoot something! Don’t get me wrong shooting an older buck with less than giant antlers is not a bad thing in an effort to reduce mouths, but let’s not pretend we are improving the genetic makeup of the herd!

I agree with an exception. We (my son) took out an old dud (I didn't forget the e, he was a dud.) this past season. There was another I would have dumped if he ever stuck his nose out. Both deer we had history with and they were already old, 6+, and never going to be much. But what they did do is kick A$$ and take names when it came time to rut. There is only so much room for mature bucks on a piece of ground. I'm all for opening up a bed for a good three year old with potential. I won't change genetics on my place but I may change the odds of getting a deer with good potential to stay on my place. I don't think this can be done without history with a certain buck though. If I didn't know them there is no way I could tell if they were 4 years old or 8 years old. I just can't seem to judge ages after 4 without history.

and for the record my son could have killed a deer with more inches then the one he did. But those deer were only 3.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I agree with an exception. We (my son) took out an old dud (I didn't forget the e, he was a dud.) this past season. There was another I would have dumped if he ever stuck his nose out. Both deer we had history with and they were already old, 6+, and never going to be much. But what they did do is kick A$$ and take names when it came time to rut. There is only so much room for mature bucks on a piece of ground. I'm all for opening up a bed for a good three year old with potential. I won't change genetics on my place but I may change the odds of getting a deer with good potential to stay on my place. I don't think this can be done without history with a certain buck though. If I didn't know them there is no way I could tell if they were 4 years old or 8 years old. I just can't seem to judge ages after 4 without history.

and for the record my son could have killed a deer with more inches then the one he did. But those deer were only 3.

Totally but in a one buck state that is tough if you are hunting alone. I had a rat head buck that was roughly 6 based on neighbors history at 10 yards late October but just couldn’t bring myself to shoot with so much season left. Wish I had now as he’s disappeared and so has the season!

 

[sandbur]

I saw that too. Very interesting.

The more information I read about and studies I've seen...it seems that the health of the mother(ideally a dominant doe who gets the best bedding area/food) and time of berth (breed during first rut) is as much or more important to the future growth of antlers than the actual father is. Almost contrary to everything I've seen online or often gets promoted; on a side note, I saw Higgins had a social media post today about going on a "cull" hunt on his property.

You mention the health of the doe. As we move north and winters get worse, that does health can decline. She may not have a fawn or raise it.

Plus that adult buck will take longer to recover from winter. Spring green up will be later. In short, the growing season is shorter.

We have a heck of a start on winter. Friends have deer pictures with snow approaching the bellies.

After a bad winter, a summer drought, or even just a more northern location, you usually don’t see the antler growth of other locations.

Many factors are beyond our control.


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[Mortenson]

I agree with the comment that large racked bucks (150+) are just very rare. Normal genetics here point to an average mature buck scoring maybe 120-140. I've only been trying to guestimate age for maybe 10 years. For 10 years before that I knew what size buck I wanted to shoot, so in a roundabout way I was getting nice 4.5+ yr olds then too (at my avg rate of 1 every 3 yrs or so). When the herd was big in the 2000s I think we harvested a few bucks that fell in that 6-8 yr old range, and most of those deer were not high scoring. In more recent years I don't think we've gone past 5.5 just based on best guesses.

What does it take to get a massive rack? How many of you guys have an antler with a 6" H1 measurement? We have none, out of hundreds of racks and sheds. Plenty over 5" but none 6. It's gotta be age and genetics. It can't be nutrition if all the soil and location stuff is true.

As we speak I'm mounting up a subpar rack on a plaque for my dad's Christmas gift. He didn't start bow hunting til mid 50s and the best he got was a giant bodied 125 incher. Had to be quite mature, weighed 220 f.d. at the check station and has a 5.5" base. Rack got tossed in the corner of the shed for 20 yrs, but now I'm starting to appreciate those racks more, lol. I was at a Bears game at the U of I stadium when he shot it. He couldn't get it out so he had to have my brother ask a couple of his high school buddies to help out.

 

[Brian662]

I agree with the comment that large racked bucks (150+) are just very rare. Normal genetics here point to an average mature buck scoring maybe 120-140. I've only been trying to guestimate age for maybe 10 years. For 10 years before that I knew what size buck I wanted to shoot, so in a roundabout way I was getting nice 4.5+ yr olds then too (at my avg rate of 1 every 3 yrs or so). When the herd was big in the 2000s I think we harvested a few bucks that fell in that 6-8 yr old range, and most of those deer were not high scoring. In more recent years I don't think we've gone past 5.5 just based on best guesses.

What does it take to get a massive rack? How many of you guys have an antler with a 6" H1 measurement? We have none, out of hundreds of racks and sheds. Plenty over 5" but none 6. It's gotta be age and genetics. It can't be nutrition if all the soil and location stuff is true.

As we speak I'm mounting up a subpar rack on a plaque for my dad's Christmas gift. He didn't start bow hunting til mid 50s and the best he got was a giant bodied 125 incher. Had to be quite mature, weighed 220 f.d. at the check station and has a 5.5" base. Rack got tossed in the corner of the shed for 20 yrs, but now I'm starting to appreciate those racks more, lol. I was at a Bears game at the U of I stadium when he shot it. He couldn't get it out so he had to have my brother ask a couple of his high school buddies to help out.

This is interesting to me. Since I bought my property in WI and have a year's worth of knowledge, cameras, seen neighbor's sheds, etc..I can say that the difference in what I would normally consider "genetics" may actually be nutrition. A 2.5 year old buck in WI where my land is can be as heavy as a 4.5 year old in MN.

I've spent a considerable amount of time thinking about why this would be. Genetics may certainly play a part. Several differences between the two properties, the bluffs/hills are bigger in WI. The crop ground is more fertile (higher yield) in MN than in WI, however in WI because of the hills being more severe, often crops are no-tilled and it is dairy country, which means alfalfa. There isn't much for alfalfa around my immediate area (within a mile) in MN and nearly every farm field is cash cropped corn/bean rotation that is disked/plowed every fall and spring. The timber in both areas is hardwoods with healthy amount of white/bur oak, very little difference.

In summary, the farmers yield more in MN, but the land may be more suitable for growing big racks in WI with the summer time high protein forage of alfalfa available readily. The bigger bluffs in WI allow for advanced age class and tougher hunting than the hills(smaller bluffs) in MN. In one year of property ownership in WI I had three different bucks on camera on my property that were larger than anything I've had in 12 combined years of ownership on two MN parcels.

The only conclusion I have, and I think this is very pertinent to the theme of this thread... if you don't have the quality of deer you desire where you are currently at, find a location that has bigger deer and spend your time focusing on that property.

You won't/can't change genetics, neighbor's habits, or likely even age class in your area without significant acreage. You can change where you hunt.

 

[Brian662]

You mention the health of the doe. As we move north and winters get worse, that does health can decline. She may not have a fawn or raise it.

Plus that adult buck will take longer to recover from winter. Spring green up will be later. In short, the growing season is shorter.

We have a heck of a start on winter. Friends have deer pictures with snow approaching the bellies.

After a bad winter, a summer drought, or even just a more northern location, you usually don’t see the antler growth of other locations.

Many factors are beyond our control.


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Amen to that. From what I gather, you're further north than me and we have snow up past their elbows. My switchgrass is laid flat so any/most thermal cover I've got to offer is useless. Another 8" of snow expected in a few days. I hope mother nature eases up or it's going to he a very long winter down here, can't imagine how rough it'll be for the critters up north.

 

[Mortenson]

I have those same thoughts Brian. We don't have a lot of alfalfa fields closeby. Usually 1 big 1 in the hood and a few small ones. I've considered renting a 27 acre field to a hay farmer just for added nutrition and diversity. Seems easier than getting invested in all that equipment again. Same thing with winter wheat. Usually only 1 or 2 small fields in our immediate vicinity. Perhaps the deer who are non growers are the ones who avoid the right food sources during winter and early spring. Wish I could put a birdfeeder out but that would make me a criminal in IL. It still seems odd to me to see giant bodied bucks, who clearly seem to be eating right, with scumbag racks.

 

[Brian662]

I have those same thoughts Brian. We don't have a lot of alfalfa fields closeby. Usually 1 big 1 in the hood and a few small ones. I've considered renting a 27 acre field to a hay farmer just for added nutrition and diversity. Seems easier than getting invested in all that equipment again. Same thing with winter wheat. Usually only 1 or 2 small fields in our immediate vicinity. Perhaps the deer who are non growers are the ones who avoid the right food sources during winter and early spring. Wish I could put a birdfeeder out but that would make me a criminal in IL. It still seems odd to me to see giant bodied bucks, who clearly seem to be eating right, with scumbag racks.

I think that'd be a very smart move on your part with the 27 acre field. Equally as important for the buck's rack growth as the health of the does. Even if it wasn't the preferred afternoon food source of all the heard, a 27 acre field is plenty big enough for an overnight destination field to feed dozens of deer.

Here is a 5 year old buck on one of my MN properties. His body in late October was huge, I think he has seven scorable and probably wouldn't hit 100"

 

[sandbur]

Amen to that. From what I gather, you're further north than me and we have snow up past their elbows. My switchgrass is laid flat so any/most thermal cover I've got to offer is useless. Another 8" of snow expected in a few days. I hope mother nature eases up or it's going to he a very long winter down here, can't imagine how rough it'll be for the critters up north.

Do you have any conifers for thermal cover?

NWSG are not of much use once winter gets bad, IMO.


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[sandbur]

Speaking of alfalfa, the farmers I know who grow it are very particular about pH and other nutrients, much more so than growing other crops. These additions to the soil probably effect deer health.


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[Brian662]

Do you have any conifers for thermal cover?

NWSG are not of much use once winter gets bad, IMO.


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I've got some 10-12' ERC.
When we moved here the property was cattle pasture and ag fields, I've been slowly converting all but 9 acres of ag fields to habitat. Plenty of young conifers have been planted but are less than 3' tall.
In the past, the switchgrass was a great snow fence on the edges and the deer could get in the middle and stay warm. It was better winter cover than any of the nearby hardwoods, not this year.

 

[roymunson]

The order of importance according to "science" studies is:
1. Age


2. Nutrition










Distant 3rd. Genetics

I hear ya. But explain the 5 year old 8 point that goes 130" when his entire life his home base has been a property that had access to ag, superior bedding, all hte browse he can handle, low pressure, etc


I'm not being a smartazz, I'm legitimately asking. We're working harder to get that deer to 5 than a lot of other guys are to get bigger deer to 5.

Also, he's a fully mature body too. A steer on the hoof, just didn't put it into bone.

 

[PrairieShadow]

I hear ya. But explain the 5 year old 8 point that goes 130" when his entire life his home base has been a property that had access to ag, superior bedding, all hte browse he can handle, low pressure, etc


I'm not being a smartazz, I'm legitimately asking. We're working harder to get that deer to 5 than a lot of other guys are to get bigger deer to 5.

Also, he's a fully mature body too. A steer on the hoof, just didn't put it into bone.

This may be a perfect example of a deer who doesn’t reach maturity (genetic potential) until a later age. Will he put on 30-40” at 6? I see lots of deer do those kind of jumps from 3-4 or 4-5.

Just spit balling ideas. I love this type of conversation.

 

[Brian662]

I hear ya. But explain the 5 year old 8 point that goes 130" when his entire life his home base has been a property that had access to ag, superior bedding, all hte browse he can handle, low pressure, etc


I'm not being a smartazz, I'm legitimately asking. We're working harder to get that deer to 5 than a lot of other guys are to get bigger deer to 5.

Also, he's a fully mature body too. A steer on the hoof, just didn't put it into bone.

Nothing to explain, really.
Some deer just don't have "it" and they never will.
This is how I've begun to look at it.
For any deer to express its full potential, it first needs to reach maturity. If all bucks reached maturity, probably 25% would reach 150"+ in most areas. (Totally a guess by me). That's why age is the most important thing, because we are already fighting a losing battle against the averages. My guess is only 5-10% would reach 170".

Deer nutrition can be somewhat cyclical depending on a lot of conditions, but using your example, let's say all bucks in this study have access to the same high quality ag and browse. Now we look at drought rates, winter stress, predators, etc. I believe this can fluctuate year over year antler growth rates.

The more we learn about genetics of a wild herd, the more answers we get about the father not being nearly as important as originally suspected. This is something I personally struggle with for a few reasons, but primarily this one - if you do everything right with your nutrition and herd health, habitat, etc...then you should give yourself the best odds for a healthy buck fawn who will express his fullest potential, right? Awesome. Great job! Except science has taught us that the mother of that buck will disperse him from the heard 1-10 miles away to avoid any incest issues. Now we've done every thing that we as habitat managers could have done to give our deer the best chance at expressing their full potential so that our neighbors (1-10 miles away) can hunt them if/when they reach that potential.
The only way to limit or stop the dispersal is to harvest the momma doe. Personally if I see a momma doe with two buck fawns, I will try to harvest her every single time.

 

[Teeder]

Personally if I see a momma doe with two buck fawns, I will try to harvest her every single time.

Doesn't this throw the " incest" issue for a loop then?
I don't shoot a doe with fawns for this reason. There's a doe somewhere else that's kicking her son towards my place, is how I see it. Otherwise, I could just drive myself crazy with this stuff.
Plus, I like keeping a known producer close to home to draw the big boys to me.

 

[Brian662]

Doesn't this throw the " incest" issue for a loop then?
I don't shoot a doe with fawns for this reason. There's a doe somewhere else that's kicking her son towards my place, is how I see it. Otherwise, I could just drive myself crazy with this stuff.
Plus, I like keeping a known producer close to home to draw the big boys to me.

Strictly a guess on my part, but I'm guessing the dispersal by momma doe is to be sure she isn't bred in the future by her son.
If momma has been harvested, that isn't an issue.

 

[Teeder]

IMO, there's still sisters and aunts to deal with.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

My expectations with nutrition revolve around the hope I can add inches to my current residents when they are growing. If I can turn a 140 to a 155 between season as opposed to expecting to turn a button into a 6 year old giant. My limited footprint combined with dispersion just makes that a pipe dream.

 

[roymunson]

Nothing to explain, really.
Some deer just don't have "it" and they never will.

so it's genetics. and if that's the case, its not WAY down the list as stated earlier. I understand that I cannot viably control genetics. I'm ok with that. but if I'm told age and nutrition are the primary things for big mature deer, then I'm missing something because that's something we have in spades at our place.