How do you really know how old that deer is…

[Howboutthemdawgs]

This is to piggyback on swampcats thread about average 3.5 score. I see a lot of people speak in definitives when it comes to bucks ages. Admittedly that is one of my big pet peeves in the hunting world. I’ve read research that talked about the wildly inaccurate guesstimating that biologist do when tooth wear aging. I remember an article back in quality white tails that tested biologist on known aged deer using tooth wear aging. Past 2.5 it was horrible. Additionally, though much more accurate past 2.5, cementum annuli testing is also not perfect. Sub 75% or worse, especially with age. So if those two methods by trained experts and essentially AI, are not accurate I dang sure don’t trust the taxidermist to tell me how old a deer is! So how do you really know? I don’t think most of us do if we are being truthful. I think the best we can do is get in a range. I also think history with bucks is a pretty good way to most likely be within a year margin of error. This is the same deer a year apart. Is he 4.5 this year? Is he 5.5? Heck is he 6.5? Who knows. All I can say with conviction is he isn’t 1.5 or 2.5 or 3.5!

 

[BenAllgood]

A lot of people don't realize how long these animals can live either. In some areas, it may even take longer for a buck to reach his full potential. Here's a buck I had pics of on land I managed for several years. Live pics are from 2008. He was poached in 2014. Scored 208.

 

[Native Hunter]

All you have to do is just save the pictures from year to year.

 

[SwampCat]

I agree Howboutthemdawgs - GUESSING age is truly an educated guess. I hesitate to guess age of deer in other areas - and did comment on the age of a deer on this forum - and quantified it by saying it wasnt a deer from my area. It looked like a 4 yr old to me, based on brisket, belly line, antlers - everything about it. Those from that area said they would call it a 2 yr old. But I am from an area where it is a rare buck that breaks 150 lbs live wt. obviously, I have no skill in aging deer that weigh half again what my own deer weigh.

All that said, I think when you own your own place for 20 years, have camera history with almost all the bucks killed, weigh every deer, jawbone age every deer, and history tells you what your typical deer weigh at what age, you are familiar with antler structure, etc - a reasonable educated guess is probably fairly accurate. Typically, we classify a shooter buck as a mature deer - 4 yrs old or more. A 115” five year old is a shooter. So is a 140” 4 yr old - as typically, those deer dont gain a lot if inches after that. Our deer normally are not adding inches at age 6 or 7.

Most of our deer become recognizable by themselves at age 3. You can then usually recognize them the rest of their life.

 

[Bill]

Good question. Lots of things go into it for me. Location specific. Can’t age southern deer. Probably can’t age a deer 3 countys away. Can’t age an August buck. But get one on my farm in mid October to mid November and I can tell you 1 to 5 with some decent accuracy. It’s all body build, head shape, chest/neck size. A 5 year old next to a 3 year is easy to see. A 5 year old alone gets tougher.

Having said all that my friend down the road always says I’m wrong. He says I always call them younger then they are so???

 

[drycreek]

I’m with the OP on this, it has been proven that both methods of tooth aging is not a perfect science. I like to think I can age bucks on the hoof, but can I prove or disprove that even if I get to send his teeth in ? I think about the best I can realistically do, is to not shoot a 2.5 year old, but I really don’t know if the buck I shoot is 3.5, 4.5, or possibly even 5.5. It makes me feel better if a buck I thought was 4.5 is aged at 5.5 but who really knows ? One thing I do know is, they are all delicious !

 

[Wild Thing]

"How do you really know how old a deer is?" Only their dentist knows for sure

I know there are a lot of naysayers when it comes to aging deer by the tooth replacement and wear method but I am not one of them. Yes, I also saw the article about how miserably some biologists did in being tested. What the article didn't tell us was whether or not those tested were "armchair" biologists, office pinkies or actually biologists out in the field who have some experience in looking at jawbones and teeth.

What is the definition of an "Expert". Most likely a person's expertise is going to boil down to 1) Education 2) Training and 3) Experience. There are plenty of folks out there who have some formal education and/or training in their fields, but if they never get out to gain some experience in utilizing that education and training, they probably don't really measure up to the guy that does have some experience.

I am not saying aging by tooth wear is absolutely accurate. It isn't. There I've said it. However, I will say that everything is relevant, and certainly the amount of wear on a deer's teeth is relative to its age. The tooth replacement method is pretty much bullet proof so it is a no-brainer to distinguish between a fawn, a yearling and a deer which is at least 2 1/2. Beyond that, yes - it is somewhat subjective....but it is relevant.

Look at these teeth and tell me if you believe there is a difference in wear...and then a likelihood of a difference in age?

These are all jawbones from my collection from deer taken on my property. Presumably, they have all lived on the same diet with the same type of soils as other deer in the area. Once you have looked at enough of these, you do start to form an opinion. And while the size of the deer or maybe the size of its antlers isn't an accurate measurement of its age either - they are still relevant in many cases, and coupled with other indicators, can add to the validity of the tooth wear.

2 1/2


3 1/2


4 1/2


5 1/2


I don't profess to be an expert and most biologists prefer to just classify deer by age from fawns up to 5 1/2 years PLUS. It does get more difficult when a deer gets beyond age 5...
but would you think that this deer may have been older than 5 1/2?


How about these?


IMO, tooth wear is very relevant to a deer's age. I know it isn't an exact science, but it can and does confirm age for us - at least within a year, and I can live with that.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I'll throw this in FWIW. The whole region where I hunt in the NC Pa. mountains largely is just wooded mountains - no major AG. There are several other hunting camps on our mountain, and most plant a couple food plots. All of our mountain camps didn't used to plant anything, until about 20 years ago - then most of us started to plant. Since food plotting, all of our camps have seen bigger bodies, racks, bigger does & better fawning. Most of the camps recognized the improvement, and have upped their planting games.

Given the fact that we have bigger-bodied deer / racks - I don't know how any of us (my hunting area) could estimate the age of a deer on-the-hoof - using the body size / shape / brisket method anymore. It's a guessing game for us since food plotting upped the deer quality around our hunting area.

I have no clue as to the genetics in our area. Where a 100 - 110 8 pt. with a spread of 10" to 12" used to be a "trophy" in our mountains, since local camps have been food plotting - having several 7, 8, 9 pts. feeding in any camp's plots that go 110" to 130" is more common. I'm supposing that nutrition can throw a wrench into "standard" methods of aging "on-the-hoof." Younger deer getting bigger .... quicker?? I know of no one on our mountain aging deer by having teeth checked. We should, I guess, for our own info.

 

[Brian662]

I shot this guy in my second year on the property in MN. He was bigger the first year, on his way down. Taxidermist aged him at 9.5 years and sent me pics that I wished I had saved. His teeth were within a few millimeters of his jawline, it was incredible.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I shot this guy in my second year on the property in MN. He was bigger the first year, on his way down. Taxidermist aged him at 9.5 years and sent me pics that I wished I had saved. His teeth were within a few millimeters of his jawline, it was incredible.

By taking him, you may have saved him from a slow, lingering starvation death with teeth that far gone. Great buck at any rate!! Congrats!!

 

[SwampCat]

I think a lot of us probably dont have the need - or luxury - to age deer deep into the mature bracket. I often read about someone in the midwest who killed a giant that was 7 or 8 yrs old. I have had a couple deer I was pretty sure were 7 yrs old - and they are definitely on their way down. In addition, a lot of us are lucky to have a 4 yr old deer on our property, let alone an 8 yr old.

My big interest is between age 3.5 and 4.5. I consider a 4.5 yr old buck as mature. At age 4, our deer will be so close to being at their peak - it would be a fool’s errand to pass him and expect him to be alive the next year - barring you control a couple thousand acres. I have never seen a sub par 3 yr old blow up later in life.

We dont kill 1 or 2 yr old bucks - regardless of antler size. Unfortunately, in our area, it can be difficult to tell the difference between a 3 and 4 yr old buck - picture history helps a lot. While I find interest in all buck ages, age determining the difference between a 3 yr old buck and a mature buck - is key to me.

 

[Wild Thing]

I think a lot of us probably dont have the need - or luxury - to age deer deep into the mature bracket. I often read about someone in the midwest who killed a giant that was 7 or 8 yrs old. I have had a couple deer I was pretty sure were 7 yrs old - and they are definitely on their way down. In addition, a lot of us are lucky to have a 4 yr old deer on our property, let alone an 8 yr old.

My big interest is between age 3.5 and 4.5. I consider a 4.5 yr old buck as mature. At age 4, our deer will be so close to being at their peak - it would be a fool’s errand to pass him and expect him to be alive the next year - barring you control a couple thousand acres. I have never seen a sub par 3 yr old blow up later in life.

We dont kill 1 or 2 yr old bucks - regardless of antler size. Unfortunately, in our area, it can be difficult to tell the difference between a 3 and 4 yr old buck - picture history helps a lot. While I find interest in all buck ages, age determining the difference between a 3 yr old buck and a mature buck - is key to me.

Amen!

 

[Baker]

I suppose the questions around aging are deer are: can you age a live deer, can you age a dead deer, why do you need to age a deer anyway? Regarding live deer, unless I know the deer from about 3 and can keep up with him every year, I can can be fooled more times than I'm right. I can show you video of known 8 yr plus bucks that look 4. Or 6 yr old bucks that look 10. For me unless I know the deer it's young middle age or mature...sometimes over mature.

I've looked at countless jaws. Studied them with some of the best biologist in the business. My takeaway is a jaw is good at 1-3. From 4 on crap shoot with variability increasing significantly with age. Don't look. at jaws anymore but then we don't shoot anything thats not generally 6+ usually 7 +.

Sent hundreds of jaws off for analysis. " Some years " very accurate. But we have seen 2 yr plus swings whereas well. Curiously extreme stress can impact this method disproportionately .

Curious question becomes why we want to know age of deer in first place. If it's to make a harvest decision and your criteria is something other than knowing young middle age, or old then you better know your deer herd really well. If its just curiosity then its easy enough to get close enough but you may never know exactly.

Above is a video of a known buck from either 4 or 5 till harvest. Some interesting changes.

 

[Baker]

Just for chuckles here is another video following a super star. Might dispel some myths about how bucks antlers change thru the years.

 

[Wild Thing]

I suppose the questions around aging are deer are: can you age a live deer, can you age a dead deer, why do you need to age a deer anyway? Regarding live deer, unless I know the deer from about 3 and can keep up with him every year, I can can be fooled more times than I'm right. I can show you video of known 8 yr plus bucks that look 4. Or 6 yr old bucks that look 10. For me unless I know the deer it's young middle age or mature...sometimes over mature.

I've looked at countless jaws. Studied them with some of the best biologist in the business. My takeaway is a jaw is good at 1-3. From 4 on crap shoot with variability increasing significantly with age. Don't look. at jaws anymore but then we don't shoot anything thats not generally 6+ usually 7 +.

Sent hundreds of jaws off for analysis. " Some years " very accurate. But we have seen 2 yr plus swings whereas well. Curiously extreme stress can impact this method disproportionately .

Curious question becomes why we want to know age of deer in first place. If it's to make a harvest decision and your criteria is something other than knowing young middle age, or old then you better know your deer herd really well. If its just curiosity then its easy enough to get close enough but you may never know exactly.

Above is a video of a known buck from either 4 or 5 till harvest. Some interesting changes.

With all due respect Mr Baker....whatever you have to say about this thread is pretty much completely irrelevant to 99% of the other guys on this forum. If you can grow bucks to 6-10 years of age and pass everything up to age 6 or 7, you either have high fence or you control so many acres that the average landowners like most of us here aren't even close to being in the same game with you. I mean....this isn't Apples & Oranges...more like Acorns & Bananas comparison.

You are very fortunate to be in a position to observe and participate in these things first hand, but it just isn't going to be in the cards for most of us.

I'm sure I will enjoy seeing your videos when I find the time to take a look at them.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I suppose the questions around aging are deer are: can you age a live deer, can you age a dead deer, why do you need to age a deer anyway? Regarding live deer, unless I know the deer from about 3 and can keep up with him every year, I can can be fooled more times than I'm right. I can show you video of known 8 yr plus bucks that look 4. Or 6 yr old bucks that look 10. For me unless I know the deer it's young middle age or mature...sometimes over mature.

I've looked at countless jaws. Studied them with some of the best biologist in the business. My takeaway is a jaw is good at 1-3. From 4 on crap shoot with variability increasing significantly with age. Don't look. at jaws anymore but then we don't shoot anything thats not generally 6+ usually 7 +.

Sent hundreds of jaws off for analysis. " Some years " very accurate. But we have seen 2 yr plus swings whereas well. Curiously extreme stress can impact this method disproportionately .

Curious question becomes why we want to know age of deer in first place. If it's to make a harvest decision and your criteria is something other than knowing young middle age, or old then you better know your deer herd really well. If its just curiosity then its easy enough to get close enough but you may never know exactly.

Above is a video of a known buck from either 4 or 5 till harvest. Some interesting changes.

That’s the best point of all of this. Why do we want to know? I guess it’s great if you have a high fence or control thousand plus acres of free range and you think you may realistically get a deer from 5 to 6 or something like that. But for the rest of us age is almost a fools errand to shoot for. Noble for sure. But without control of enough land it’s pissing in the wind most likely. That’s why I have always subscribed to a score criteria where I’ve hunted. It just makes more sense to say if he’s 140 plus he’s a target rather than say only 5 plus. I might as well unicorn hunt on 300 acres.

 

[SwampCat]

That’s the best point of all of this. Why do we want to know? I guess it’s great if you have a high fence or control thousand plus acres of free range and you think you may realistically get a deer from 5 to 6 or something like that. But for the rest of us age is almost a fools errand to shoot for. Noble for sure. But without control of enough land it’s pissing in the wind most likely. That’s why I have always subscribed to a score criteria where I’ve hunted. It just makes more sense to say if he’s 140 plus he’s a target rather than say only 5 plus. I might as well unicorn hunt on 300 acres.

That is my point exactly - in my case, I am really only interested if the deer is 3.5 or mature. If he is a scraggly 6 pt at 3.5 - he needs to be removed from the herd. If he is a decent 8 pt or bigger - let him go and see what he does. If he is a mature deer - he is theoretically a target - no matter what. If he is a freak of nature - on my place he may well score as much as he ever will at 4.5. If he is a gnarly 7 pt - he isnt going to blow up. We like to eat deer meat. Since we rarely kill a doe, mature bucks - either monsters or duds - pave our freezers. Tweeners go largely unmolested - giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Baker]

I'm keenly aware that my circumstance is unique. I'm totally OK with that!

But I question if my thoughts on aging live and dead deer should be thrown to the waste bin of irrelevance. Why does one need to know the exact age of a dead or live deer? Why isn't young, middle age and mature adequate to 99% of the people not only on this forum but hunters everywhere? If a deer is dead what difference does his exact age make?

My opinions on the various aging techniques of dead deer are just that...my opinions.Granted, based on a fairly large data set. But just opinion.
My opinions on aging deer on the hoof are just that. My opinion. Granted, an opinion from looking at hundreds of bucks a year. But still just an opinion.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The value in it for me is just for learning purposes. Understanding how bucks change as they progress and what the potential is in your particular area.

If all the bucks i'm writing off as 2 YOs that might amount to something as a 4 YO are actually 3 or 4, I might need to reconsider what my expectations are and how trigger restraint is used. I'm not much concerned with what happens after 4.5 around my land because of how rare it seems for a buck to get that old.

 

[Brian662]

The value in it for me is just for learning purposes. Understanding how bucks change as they progress and what the potential is in your particular area.

If all the bucks i'm writing off as 2 YOs that might amount to something as a 4 YO are actually 3 or 4, I might need to reconsider what my expectations are and how trigger restraint is used. I'm not much concerned with what happens after 4.5 around my land because of how rare it seems for a buck to get that old.

Has there been deer you were interested in harvesting in MN? If you haven't harvested a deer for 10 years in MN and there isn't anything around you want to harvest, I would adjust your goals/expectations if I was you.