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FarmerDan said:
I'm thinking of ladino or one of the other white flower clovers....
You can spring plant clover and succeeded. It just takes a lot more skill, management, and luck. Having said that, fall is the best time to plant clover. Let me say that another way. The odds of a successful spring planting are in the range of zero to 50% (I'm making up numbers). The odds of a successful fall planting are 85% - 100%. Again, I'm talking about long-lived varieties of perennial clovers.

Why? Clover is a cool season crop. It doesn't do well in heat and humidity. It can and will do dormant in the summer. A fall planting gets two cool seasons to establish. Those are two season with much less weed competition, too. Spring planting clover is akin to throwing a baby into a cage of lions. It might survive, but it's going to take a lot of intervention.

Spring planted clover has a short root system. That makes it hard to compete for water and nutrients in the midst of a sea of summer annual weeds. And if the ground dries, there isn't much ability to reach, deeper, wetter soil. By the way, spring gly before a spring planting surely will kill all the weeds growing then, but there are still hundreds of thousands of weed seed in the soil. If your clover germinates so, too, will all that weed seed.

To each their own, but I don't think you can have too much clover. Its a big bang for a small investment. But, it depends on you goals and how food plotting fits into them.
Me, I look around at the available feed sources in the area (beyond my property lines) to see when feed might be in short supply. I do love soybeans for a summer annual and fall food source. Corn I can't do because it matures too early. Brassicas I've never had any luck with.










t
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this is quite helpful farmer Dan. thank you so much. Definitely planting buckwheat in spring, then clover and/or clover/grain mix in the fall.
 
^^^^^^ I agree with Farmer Dan. The only reason we tried planting clover in the spring ( one time ) was to get some decent feed to the deer to chow on in spring and summer. Having followed the advice of Wiscwhip and a few others on here, fall planting for clover works out better. For all the reasons Farmer Dan spoke to. We learned from more experienced guys who've been doing it for years.
 
I read somewhere recently that this guy found a rotation that is working for him. He wanted to simplify. I would love all of your thoughts on it. He said he grows clover 2 years in a plot, then plows it under and plants brassicas for the fall. Then in the spring frostseeds clover on top of the now dead/and or eaten brassicas and keeps it in clover for 2 years, then puts it in brassicas again and repeats this perpetually, claiming that the clover puts N back in the soil which the brassicas need. He has several food plots on this rotation in various stages. What do you all think of this plan?
 
Patrick said:
I read somewhere recently that this guy found a rotation that is working for him. He wanted to simplify. I would love all of your thoughts on it. He said he grows clover 2 years in a plot, then plows it under and plants brassicas for the fall. Then in the spring frostseeds clover on top of the now dead/and or eaten brassicas and keeps it in clover for 2 years, then puts it in brassicas again and repeats this perpetually, claiming that the clover puts N back in the soil which the brassicas need. He has several food plots on this rotation in various stages. What do you all think of this plan?
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I basically do this, and it works pretty decent. The main reason I do it, is because the clover stores so much nitrogen in a few years, weeds get difficult to manage, so you have to spray them heavily to keep the grasses back. You end up spending more on fighting the weeds, then it costs to just replant.
 
Patrick said:
I read somewhere recently that this guy found a rotation that is working for him. He wanted to simplify. I would love all of your thoughts on it. He said he grows clover 2 years in a plot, then plows it under and plants brassicas for the fall. Then in the spring frostseeds clover on top of the now dead/and or eaten brassicas and keeps it in clover for 2 years, then puts it in brassicas again and repeats this perpetually, claiming that the clover puts N back in the soil which the brassicas need. He has several food plots on this rotation in various stages. What do you all think of this plan?
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It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. A properly established perennial clover field can produce good deer food with very low maintenance cost for 7 to 10 years with very little if any herbicide cost and only the fuel cost of mowing once a year after establishment. You may have one year when it gets weedy enough to apply 1 qt/ac gly with the right timing to get the last few years out of it. Eventually it will need to be rotated and Brassica is a good N seeking choice. His plan also is dependent on location and the type of brassica used. For example, some brassica in many locations (like PTT in my zone) requires termination in the spring before it bolts. Other brassicas like GHR don't require spring termination in my area.

To may way of thinking 2 year rotations cost much more in money and time without much added value from a deer food perspective. Whether they are beneficial from an attraction perspective depends on you area and how deer relate to particular foods. If I were doing a 2 year rotation, I would not use an expensive long-lived improved perennial clover. Depending on location, Crimson clover in regions where it acts as a reseeding annual might be a better choice for a 2 year rotation. Medium read clover which is a short lived perennial might also be a good choice for a 2 year rotation.

To provide the most months of deer food for the lowest cost, it is hard to beat a persistent perennial clover like Durana planted in the fall with a WR nurse crop and maintained for 7 to 10 years and then rotated into Buckwheat in the spring followed by Brassica for fall. You can even skip the Buckwheat and go straight to brassica in the summer for large tubers. The concept of rotation is a good one. There is nothing wrong with his 2 year schedule except for the added cost and labor.

Thanks,

Jack
 
4wanderingeyes said:
I basically do this, and it works pretty decent. The main reason I do it, is because the clover stores so much nitrogen in a few years, weeds get difficult to manage, so you have to spray them heavily to keep the grasses back. You end up spending more on fighting the weeds, then it costs to just replant.
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I've learned not to fight the weeds. Start of with a clean field with best practice planting techniques. Select an aggressive and persistent clover like Durana. Mow as frequently as needed that first spring for good establishment. Then tolerate weeds. I find that in my area that after a couple years, you would not even know there was clover in the field during the summer under all those weeds, but after timely mowing in the fall when conditions in my area favor the clover, it bounces back and is very effective. After about 7 years, I'll do the light gly treatment. I also drill it with GHR when I supress it with the gly. That usually gives me a few more good years of clover.

I can see where in different areas with different conditions you may only get 5 to 7 years from a well established clover field rather than 7 to 10. But I think weed tolerance has been my biggest success when it comes to clover. Deer don't mind the weeds at all. In places where the seed bank contains more problematic and less deer friendly weeds things may also be different. Deer use many of the broadleaf weeds in my clover plots during the summer and some are more nutritious than my soybean forage!

Thanks,

Jack
 
I'm going on year 3 of plots with all my knowledge coming from this forum and others like it. If I had 4 half acre plots this spring I would spray them at first green up or mow them down and not plant until fall. A fallow field is providing food, but spraying early and then before planting will give you a better start. I wanted to jump right in with spring plots, ended up fertilizing my weeds and making fall plots more difficult. Plotting is like painting, the results depend on your preparation not application. Plan your planting around best chance of rain. IF you broadcast, go heavy on seed (except brassicas). I suggest a diverse mix of seeds from your local co-op or feed store. Their bulk seed supply should have plenty of choices for your area. Have a grass, broadleaf and legume and your bases are covered.
 
yoderjac said:
It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. A properly established perennial clover field can produce good deer food with very low maintenance cost for 7 to 10 years with very little if any herbicide cost and only the fuel cost of mowing once a year after establishment. You may have one year when it gets weedy enough to apply 1 qt/ac gly with the right timing to get the last few years out of it. Eventually it will need to be rotated and Brassica is a good N seeking choice. His plan also is dependent on location and the type of brassica used. For example, some brassica in many locations (like PTT in my zone) requires termination in the spring before it bolts. Other brassicas like GHR don't require spring termination in my area.

To may way of thinking 2 year rotations cost much more in money and time without much added value from a deer food perspective. Whether they are beneficial from an attraction perspective depends on you area and how deer relate to particular foods. If I were doing a 2 year rotation, I would not use an expensive long-lived improved perennial clover. Depending on location, Crimson clover in regions where it acts as a reseeding annual might be a better choice for a 2 year rotation. Medium read clover which is a short lived perennial might also be a good choice for a 2 year rotation.

To provide the most months of deer food for the lowest cost, it is hard to beat a persistent perennial clover like Durana planted in the fall with a WR nurse crop and maintained for 7 to 10 years and then rotated into Buckwheat in the spring followed by Brassica for fall. You can even skip the Buckwheat and go straight to brassica in the summer for large tubers. The concept of rotation is a good one. There is nothing wrong with his 2 year schedule except for the added cost and labor.

Thanks,

Jack
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Thanks again, Jack. Pardon my ignorance again, when you say, "WR nurse crop", do you mean overseed the clover plot with it? And if so, what is the timing on that? thanks!!
 
On a side note, is there a book on food plots for beginners like me any of you would recommend? Thanks!
 
On more... Also, how long will a clover plot persist into the winter in Northern Kentucky? I"m on the border of zone 6b and 7a.
 
I've had great luck frost seeding clover into brassica. I have been on a three year rotation between clover and brassica but other than that I do the same thing.
 
Patrick said:
Thanks again, Jack. Pardon my ignorance again, when you say, "WR nurse crop", do you mean overseed the clover plot with it? And if so, what is the timing on that? thanks!!
Click to expand...

No, overseeding is something different. The best practice for planting perennial clover is to mix the clover with a cereal grain. For most folks, the best one to use is Winter Rye (WR). The winter rye acts as a nurse crop. Some folks use the term cover crop, but this term has several meanings depending on context, and nurse crop has only one. It is a companion plant intended to "nurse" the clover crop until it is well established. Winter rye is an annual that germinates quickly. Deer love it when it is young and tender. You are best to plant right before a good rain in the fall. A nominal rate is 100 lbs/ac of Winter Rye and 10 lbs/ac of perennial clover. Those rates can vary quite a bit based on conditions and the type of clover chosen, but it is a good starting place. Generally, fall weeds are not an issue. Conditions favor crops like WR and Clover at this time of year. The clover will typically germinate but you won't get much growth. The WR is the attractant that first fall when planted.

By spring, the winter rye will really take off smothering the field. This keeps weed seeds from germinating and growing simply by depriving them of light and resources but also by a chemical effect WR specifically has on many weed seeds. The clover, which has already germinated and gone dormant over the winter will spend the spring using most of its energy to put down a good root system. This is when mowing is critical. You want the nurse crop of winter rye to continue to live and keep weeds at bay, but you don't want it to shade out your clover slowing its development. So, each time the WR hits a foot or so tall, it is time to mow. You want to mow it back to 6" - 8" depending on conditions. The lighter you seeding rate of WR, the less critical mowing is but the more opportunity you have for weed establishment. Taller growing clover varieties that are less drought tolerant or no rain the forecast call for mowing higher. If you use a drought tolerant lower growing clover like Durana, you can usually mow lower, but if conditions are dry enough you still might want to shoot for 8" rather than 6".

This mowing the first spring creates a balance. The winter rye nurse crop continues to fight weeds until it naturally dies in the summer. The clover is released and fills in as the WR naturally dies. Mowing generally does not impact grass type weeds, but it does control most broadleaf weeds. With this approach you start off with a field that is very clean for a low cost with no herbicides. After the clover is well established (by that second fall) it will be a clean clover field and the clover will be the attractant. Generally, at this point overseeding is a waste of time because the clover is so thick and there is really no need.

Each year, as individual clover plants die and are replaced, more N is released into the soil. Grasses love N, so over time the field will become more and more weedy. I don't mind this at all. I don't use herbicides each year on clover and I let the weeds grow during the spring and summer. They actually shade the clover and many broadleaf weeds are good deer food. Each fall, as the nights get cooler and fall rains come our way, I will mow the field back to 6" to 8". Removing the overstory of weeds and the changing weather conditions favor the clover. I typically have a high percentage of clover in the fall even in fields that looked like they just had weeds in the summer. However, eventually the weeds will take over. Depending on the clover type and your conditions, this can be from 5 to 7 years after planting.

At this point, I generally spray the field with 1 quart/ac of glyphosate. Clover is naturally resistant to glyphosate. 1 qt/ac will top kill the clover but leave the root system intact. It will kill most grasses and many broadleaf weeds. This is where overseeding comes in. I have a seed drill. I like to drill groundhog radish into the clover when it has been suppressed by gly. I know others have had success simply surface broadcasting at this point. The key to this technique is timing. The gly will stress the clover so you don't want to do it at a time when the clover will be undergoing other stresses. That could kill it. Instead, you want to do this at a time of year when you expect to have a good rain in a few days.

Well, that is how a nurse crop works and more.

Best of luck,

Jack
 
yoderjac said:
No, overseeding is something different. The best practice for planting perennial clover is to mix the clover with a cereal grain. For most folks, the best one to use is Winter Rye (WR). The winter rye acts as a nurse crop. Some folks use the term cover crop, but this term has several meanings depending on context, and nurse crop has only one. It is a companion plant intended to "nurse" the clover crop until it is well established. Winter rye is an annual that germinates quickly. Deer love it when it is young and tender. You are best to plant right before a good rain in the fall. A nominal rate is 100 lbs/ac of Winter Rye and 10 lbs/ac of perennial clover. Those rates can vary quite a bit based on conditions and the type of clover chosen, but it is a good starting place. Generally, fall weeds are not an issue. Conditions favor crops like WR and Clover at this time of year. The clover will typically germinate but you won't get much growth. The WR is the attractant that first fall when planted.

By spring, the winter rye will really take off smothering the field. This keeps weed seeds from germinating and growing simply by depriving them of light and resources but also by a chemical effect WR specifically has on many weed seeds. The clover, which has already germinated and gone dormant over the winter will spend the spring using most of its energy to put down a good root system. This is when mowing is critical. You want the nurse crop of winter rye to continue to live and keep weeds at bay, but you don't want it to shade out your clover slowing its development. So, each time the WR hits a foot or so tall, it is time to mow. You want to mow it back to 6" - 8" depending on conditions. The lighter you seeding rate of WR, the less critical mowing is but the more opportunity you have for weed establishment. Taller growing clover varieties that are less drought tolerant or no rain the forecast call for mowing higher. If you use a drought tolerant lower growing clover like Durana, you can usually mow lower, but if conditions are dry enough you still might want to shoot for 8" rather than 6".

This mowing the first spring creates a balance. The winter rye nurse crop continues to fight weeds until it naturally dies in the summer. The clover is released and fills in as the WR naturally dies. Mowing generally does not impact grass type weeds, but it does control most broadleaf weeds. With this approach you start off with a field that is very clean for a low cost with no herbicides. After the clover is well established (by that second fall) it will be a clean clover field and the clover will be the attractant. Generally, at this point overseeding is a waste of time because the clover is so thick and there is really no need.

Each year, as individual clover plants die and are replaced, more N is released into the soil. Grasses love N, so over time the field will become more and more weedy. I don't mind this at all. I don't use herbicides each year on clover and I let the weeds grow during the spring and summer. They actually shade the clover and many broadleaf weeds are good deer food. Each fall, as the nights get cooler and fall rains come our way, I will mow the field back to 6" to 8". Removing the overstory of weeds and the changing weather conditions favor the clover. I typically have a high percentage of clover in the fall even in fields that looked like they just had weeds in the summer. However, eventually the weeds will take over. Depending on the clover type and your conditions, this can be from 5 to 7 years after planting.

At this point, I generally spray the field with 1 quart/ac of glyphosate. Clover is naturally resistant to glyphosate. 1 qt/ac will top kill the clover but leave the root system intact. It will kill most grasses and many broadleaf weeds. This is where overseeding comes in. I have a seed drill. I like to drill groundhog radish into the clover when it has been suppressed by gly. I know others have had success simply surface broadcasting at this point. The key to this technique is timing. The gly will stress the clover so you don't want to do it at a time when the clover will be undergoing other stresses. That could kill it. Instead, you want to do this at a time of year when you expect to have a good rain in a few days.

Well, that is how a nurse crop works and more.

Best of luck,

Jack
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As usual, Jack, you were helpful and very thorough in the explanation. This is such helpful information. I can hardly wait till spring to start laying down my buckwheat!! BTW, I have a guy meeting me on the land to give me an estimate on clearing two cedar ridges for food plots about 1/3 are each. I'm excited!!!
 
Thank you so much, Jray, I've started reading it. This is great!!
 
upload_2017-12-3_19-34-3.pngplan to put in, These are the two plots I plan to put in soon. Two cedar ridges with not much to offer (too tall to provide cover, and choking out understory). So I'm going to have about 1/3 acre cleared. HOpe to start soon.
 
Also, is there a secret to getting cheaper buckwheat seed? It seems very expensive, about $50 for a 50lb bag, unless I'm looking in the wrong places.
 
Patrick said:
Also, is there a secret to getting cheaper buckwheat seed? It seems very expensive, about $50 for a 50lb bag, unless I'm looking in the wrong places.
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That's about what I found it for too. That why I went with Winter Rye. About $12 for 50# I'm kind of cheap

Chuck

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
Patrick said:
Also, is there a secret to getting cheaper buckwheat seed? It seems very expensive, about $50 for a 50lb bag, unless I'm looking in the wrong places.
Click to expand...

That’s the going rate. One thing to consider when your looking at buckwheat or rye, in my experience buckwheat seems to draw better during its growing cycle compared to other grains planted in the spring which are generally attractive in its early stages of growth but not later. Just things to consider for whatever your goals will be.
 
Patrick said:
View attachment 15874plan to put in, These are the two plots I plan to put in soon. Two cedar ridges with not much to offer (too tall to provide cover, and choking out understory). So I'm going to have about 1/3 acre cleared. HOpe to start soon.
Click to expand...

Just looking at your map.... consider adding a plot just south of the east plot as, if possible in that grassy area. Those two plots along with the field and the timber to the north, would create a decent pinch point or two. Plus bucks in rut would be scent checking both and using said pinch points pretty regular.
 
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