New Plot question

[yoderjac]

Since some of you guys are new, I just want to point out that you don't compare the cost of seed by weight. If you find two different crops that otherwise achieve your objectives and it comes down to cost, you need to compare the cost on a per acre basis. There are several things to take into account. One is seeding rate. Not that buckwheat and winter rye fill the same niche, but I'll use them as an example since folks mentioned them. The seed rate for buckwheat is 40-55 lbs/ac. The seeding rate for Winter Rye is roughly 60-120 lbs/ac. So, if you only look at seed cost, you can pay about twice as much for Buckwheat as Winter Rye for the same cost per acre. Around here Winter Rye is $18-$23 depending on whether you get VNS or a named variety.

Next, consider total cost. Lime, fertilizer, maintenance, fuel, Herbicide, etc. In these areas, these two crops are not much different but with other crop choices it can be significant. Something like alfalfa is sensitive to pH and fertility where buckwheat and WR are not, so lime and fertilizer costs can make a difference on the per acre cost. If one compares Buckwheat to many other warm season annuals (sunflowers, soybeans, ...), there can be a significant difference in herbicide costs. Buckwheat is so fast to germinate, if planted in a clean field, it will outcompete most weeds with no herbicide. Many of the alternatives are much slower to germinate and grow. In my area, for example, between the browse pressure caused by high attraction on soybeans or sunflowers and the weed competition, many fewer plants make it to full establishment. There are also termination costs with some crops. For example, in my area, PTT must be terminated in the spring before it bolts. Gly won't do it, so you either have other herbicide costs (or in my case) you have the fuel and time cost of mechanically terminating them with a till. With only a small no-till drill that does not handle trash well, I also need to bushhog corn stalks (corn gone by then) at the end of the season so they have contact with the soil and time to decompose before the spring plant.

This is just a set of examples, but the key point is that you need to look deeper when comparing cost.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[EarthySpirit]

Yes, Peplin, that "grassy" area is one of the fallow fields I am going to plant this spring and fall. The deer bed in the south portion of this picture, and off to the West and will be moving north and east to the plots.

 

[EarthySpirit]

Since some of you guys are new, I just want to point out that you don't compare the cost of seed by weight. If you find two different crops that otherwise achieve your objectives and it comes down to cost, you need to compare the cost on a per acre basis. There are several things to take into account. One is seeding rate. Not that buckwheat and winter rye fill the same niche, but I'll use them as an example since folks mentioned them. The seed rate for buckwheat is 40-55 lbs/ac. The seeding rate for Winter Rye is roughly 60-120 lbs/ac. So, if you only look at seed cost, you can pay about twice as much for Buckwheat as Winter Rye for the same cost per acre. Around here Winter Rye is $18-$23 depending on whether you get VNS or a named variety.

Next, consider total cost. Lime, fertilizer, maintenance, fuel, Herbicide, etc. In these areas, these two crops are not much different but with other crop choices it can be significant. Something like alfalfa is sensitive to pH and fertility where buckwheat and WR are not, so lime and fertilizer costs can make a difference on the per acre cost. If one compares Buckwheat to many other warm season annuals (sunflowers, soybeans, ...), there can be a significant difference in herbicide costs. Buckwheat is so fast to germinate, if planted in a clean field, it will outcompete most weeds with no herbicide. Many of the alternatives are much slower to germinate and grow. In my area, for example, between the browse pressure caused by high attraction on soybeans or sunflowers and the weed competition, many fewer plants make it to full establishment. There are also termination costs with some crops. For example, in my area, PTT must be terminated in the spring before it bolts. Gly won't do it, so you either have other herbicide costs (or in my case) you have the fuel and time cost of mechanically terminating them with a till. With only a small no-till drill that does not handle trash well, I also need to bushhog corn stalks (corn gone by then) at the end of the season so they have contact with the soil and time to decompose before the spring plant.

This is just a set of examples, but the key point is that you need to look deeper when comparing cost.

Thanks,

Jack

I noticed that the plant date recommendation for Northern KY is July 1-30. Is there something I could put in just temporarily for turkey season in one of my plots, then kill off before putting down buckwheat? Turkey season is April 14- mid May. thanks!

 

[EarthySpirit]

What do you all think about the following video as related to a fallow field and planting buckwheat in spring over it? You'll understand my question when you watch this short video. thanks again!

 

[yoderjac]

I noticed that the plant date recommendation for Northern KY is July 1-30. Is there something I could put in just temporarily for turkey season in one of my plots, then kill off before putting down buckwheat? Turkey season is April 14- mid May. thanks!

Patrick,

The short answer is no. It looks like you ran across some generic recommendation for planting dates. Those recommendation assume some set of objective. In most cases they came from farming. I don't know of anything that has a wider planting window than buckwheat. It is frost sensitive, so you have to wait until your last threat of frost has passed before you plant. Buckweat will germinate with soil temperatures as low as 45 degrees. In my area, I'm on the ratty edge of being able to double crop buckwheat. When I've done this and planted the first crop early, it grows but is stunted and lethargic compared to the second crop. The optimal soil temperature for buckwheat is 80 degrees. That is likely where the July dates come from. I would get a soil thermometer and monitor your fields. You measure soil temperature between 0800 and 0900 in the morning. I find that a soil temperature of 60 degrees or above will give you a good crop of buckwheat. I doubt you need to wait until July for that. There is nothing you can plant early enough to get any growth before you can plant buckwheat.

The bigger issue you have is that you haven't really defined your objectives. The question you asked: "Is there something I could put in just temporarily for turkey season in one of my plots, then kill off before putting down buckwheat? Turkey season is April 14- mid May." oversimplifies things. I know you are anxious like everyone new to get dirt under your fingernails and there is some benefit in that. However, unless you establish realistic objectives you may be disappointed and get discouraged.

Just to give you an idea of what I mean, I'll use turkey as and example. Turkey are not like deer. They will eat just about anything that doesn't eat them. You can't just plant food to attract turkey like many think. If you are interested in Spring Gobbler, you need to look at the big picture. Gobblers will roost where they feel safe and can be heard by hens. Hens will roost where they have good nesting and brooding habitat near by. It helps if you have water as the terrain and vegetation associated with streams and creeks lends itself to turkey.

Good nesting habitat is pretty thick vegetation. Bedding cover for deer often makes good nesting cover for turkey. Places where light gets in and thickens the ground cover can also work. Field edges, stream banks, and similar places can make for good nesting. All of this is habitat work rather than food plots.

Once you have good nesting habitat identified, you need brooding habitat that is close by. Here arrangement is very important. The one time a turkeys diet is restricted is when it is a young poult. About 90 percent of a poult's diet consists of insects. I like perennial clover for this because it greens up early and attracts insects as they emerge. Next to your clover you will want something that provides vertical cover. I like bicolor lespedeza (but the warning I give any time I mention bicolor is that it is a non-native and can be invasive under some conditions). Canopied RR soybeans also work. The idea is to have something with a canopy on top and bare dirt underneath. Poults will venture into the clover to bug but when owls, hawks, or other avian predators come by they can escape under the canopy. Young poults can't easily navigate thick vegetation. You don't want things like fescue that fall over. Bunch grasses with bare dirt between the clumps can work. Finally having some shrubs nearby can help. When poults are a couple weeks old, they can fly a few feet. This can help them escape ground base predators after the first few weeks.

As you see, all of these crops are beneficial to deer, and it is the arrangement that makes them hold turkey in the spring. Keep in mind, this is not a "what can I plant for next spring?" resolution. If you have turkey in your general area, it may take several years for hens to learn they can count on this brooding habitat being near the nesting cover. The further young poults need to travel from nesting to brooding the more danger they are in for the first few weeks. Hens will eventually figure it out but it may take a few years. Gobblers will uses these fields for strutting and loafing, but they will pick these fields because they hens are here.

I'd step back and spend some time thinking about your objectives and resources and then go get dirt under your nails. Keep in mind we will all make mistakes and learn from them.

Good Luck,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

What do you all think about the following video as related to a fallow field and planting buckwheat in spring over it? You'll understand my question when you watch this short video. thanks again!

Patrick,

Go read Crimson and Camo's throw and mow thread. As for buckwheat specifically, the effectiveness of surface broadcasting without cultipacking depends on your soil type. I have heavy clay and clover, WR, PTT, and GHR all surface broadcast well. Buckwheat seems to germinate better if I cultipack it after broadcasting or simply run over it with ATV tires.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[EarthySpirit]

Patrick,

The short answer is no. It looks like you ran across some generic recommendation for planting dates. Those recommendation assume some set of objective. In most cases they came from farming. I don't know of anything that has a wider planting window than buckwheat. It is frost sensitive, so you have to wait until your last threat of frost has passed before you plant. Buckweat will germinate with soil temperatures as low as 45 degrees. In my area, I'm on the ratty edge of being able to double crop buckwheat. When I've done this and planted the first crop early, it grows but is stunted and lethargic compared to the second crop. The optimal soil temperature for buckwheat is 80 degrees. That is likely where the July dates come from. I would get a soil thermometer and monitor your fields. You measure soil temperature between 0800 and 0900 in the morning. I find that a soil temperature of 60 degrees or above will give you a good crop of buckwheat. I doubt you need to wait until July for that. There is nothing you can plant early enough to get any growth before you can plant buckwheat.

The bigger issue you have is that you haven't really defined your objectives. The question you asked: "Is there something I could put in just temporarily for turkey season in one of my plots, then kill off before putting down buckwheat? Turkey season is April 14- mid May." oversimplifies things. I know you are anxious like everyone new to get dirt under your fingernails and there is some benefit in that. However, unless you establish realistic objectives you may be disappointed and get discouraged.

Just to give you an idea of what I mean, I'll use turkey as and example. Turkey are not like deer. They will eat just about anything that doesn't eat them. You can't just plant food to attract turkey like many think. If you are interested in Spring Gobbler, you need to look at the big picture. Gobblers will roost where they feel safe and can be heard by hens. Hens will roost where they have good nesting and brooding habitat near by. It helps if you have water as the terrain and vegetation associated with streams and creeks lends itself to turkey.

Good nesting habitat is pretty thick vegetation. Bedding cover for deer often makes good nesting cover for turkey. Places where light gets in and thickens the ground cover can also work. Field edges, stream banks, and similar places can make for good nesting. All of this is habitat work rather than food plots.

Once you have good nesting habitat identified, you need brooding habitat that is close by. Here arrangement is very important. The one time a turkeys diet is restricted is when it is a young poult. About 90 percent of a poult's diet consists of insects. I like perennial clover for this because it greens up early and attracts insects as they emerge. Next to your clover you will want something that provides vertical cover. I like bicolor lespedeza (but the warning I give any time I mention bicolor is that it is a non-native and can be invasive under some conditions). Canopied RR soybeans also work. The idea is to have something with a canopy on top and bare dirt underneath. Poults will venture into the clover to bug but when owls, hawks, or other avian predators come by they can escape under the canopy. Young poults can't easily navigate thick vegetation. You don't want things like fescue that fall over. Bunch grasses with bare dirt between the clumps can work. Finally having some shrubs nearby can help. When poults are a couple weeks old, they can fly a few feet. This can help them escape ground base predators after the first few weeks.

As you see, all of these crops are beneficial to deer, and it is the arrangement that makes them hold turkey in the spring. Keep in mind, this is not a "what can I plant for next spring?" resolution. If you have turkey in your general area, it may take several years for hens to learn they can count on this brooding habitat being near the nesting cover. The further young poults need to travel from nesting to brooding the more danger they are in for the first few weeks. Hens will eventually figure it out but it may take a few years. Gobblers will uses these fields for strutting and loafing, but they will pick these fields because they hens are here.

I'd step back and spend some time thinking about your objectives and resources and then go get dirt under your nails. Keep in mind we will all make mistakes and learn from them.

Good Luck,

Jack

Thank you so much, Jack!

 

[Peplin Creek]

Oh and if you try to plant the buckwheat early and the seed just sits on the ground and doesn’t germinate... turkeys will eat that too.

 

[yoderjac]

Oh and if you try to plant the buckwheat early and the seed just sits on the ground and doesn’t germinate... turkeys will eat that too.

I find buckwheat a great crop for keeping turkey around in the summer. They both bug in it and love the seed when it goes to seed. It won't keep them off acorns once they fall, but until then, it is great for holding birds in the summer.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

^^^^^ Found the same thing at our camp.

 

[EarthySpirit]

first pic of one of my ridges cleared for the plot this spring!!! can't wait to see it saturday. The bulldozer guy sent me this pic today.

 

[yoderjac]

Nice!

 

[Peplin Creek]

That looks great.

 

[EarthySpirit]

Ok, Gang, new question. As you see in the pictures here, I now have two 1/3 acre plots with bare ground. It used to be all cedars, will little to no undergrowth, maybe a little fescue and moss. My question is, when I plant buckwheat in the spring, should I just put it on the bare ground, or should I let whatever is latent in the soil to grow up and kill it with gly before I broadcast buckwheat seed, or some other option? So, as a reminder, my plan is to plant buckwheat in spring, then early fall roll it over and plant clover and WR in it. Thanks again for any advice.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I would try to incorporate some lime in that soil. If there was a bunch of cedars there, that ph has to me very low. Spread it as soon as possible. As for the Buckwheat, I will let someone else answer that. But what I would do is put your lime down, lightly disc it in, then spread your buckwheat and drag it in, or just pack it in somehow. The soil is disturbed right now, and compacted from the equipment, so a little dissing shouldn’t matter at this point, and the more you can get the lime into the soil, the quicker it will work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bbcoach]

Get soil samples now and prepare to lime. Your PH in cedars will probably be around 4.5 to 5.0. You'll need to get the lime down ASAP as it will take 6 months to a year to fully do it's job. Buckwheat in the spring will be a great option as the buckwheat will suppress any weed growth. By fall your lime will have had a good amount of time to get you to the 6.5 desired PH, so you should be able to plant almost anything you choose for some Great fall and winter plots.

 

[bueller]

Whatever you do watch out for those slabs of rock

 

[EarthySpirit]

Soil tests for 2 of my fallow fields was 6.7 ph, but I have not tested areas where cedars were cleared, so I thought I'd go ahead and lime those two plots, but leave the others alone. Sound right?

 

[EarthySpirit]

Whatever you do watch out for those slabs of rock

Tell me about it!!! Definitely have some rocks to move here and there. :)

 

[bbcoach]

Soil tests are a MUST! Cedars and pines put down tons of needles that will make the soil acidic. If I'm correct (4.5-5.0), you will need 2 to 3 tons of lime per acre. So I'm suspecting a ton per plot to start. Soil test will verify. If you don't take a soil sample, you are just guessing. Don't guess, get a test and put down what it recommends.