Lime Question

[SD51555]

So did I screw up by putting gypsum on my plots? This thread is all sorts of fun but I'm not sure if anything has been concluded. My latest test showed I was low in Ca, had a pH of 6.1, and an organic matter of 7.8%. I also have a decent amount of clay not far under the surface. I haven't sent in another test since adding lime and gypsum so I don't know what changes occurred.

With organic matter that high, you could even drop down to 200 lbs of gypsum per acre and get an adequate amount of sulfate/sulfur out there. You'll pick up 2-3 lbs of free sulfur from each 1% of organic matter you have. That process could struggle a bit if you get really dry, but regardless, such a low rate of gypsum, whether 200 or 300 lbs won't change your calcium/magnesium ratio much.

I have lighter soil and with it, lower levels of calcium and magnesium than the average bear. Even with my light soil, a 300 lb rate of gypsum would only add 30 ppm calcium. I had just over 1000 ppm calcium to start (so 3%). If you've got 1500-2500 ppm Ca, that % increase is that much smaller. Pair that with the right lime selection every X number of years and you have yourself an easy, affordable, balanced, and sustainable program.

 

[yoderjac]

So did I screw up by putting gypsum on my plots? This thread is all sorts of fun but I'm not sure if anything has been concluded. My latest test showed I was low in Ca, had a pH of 6.1, and an organic matter of 7.8%. I also have a decent amount of clay not far under the surface. I haven't sent in another test since adding lime and gypsum so I don't know what changes occurred.

I don't think so. I'm jealous of that OM! I've got heavy clay and look forward to the day when my soils has high enough OM levels built top-down so that fertilizer in a thing of the past for me. One good thing about my clay is that everything moves slowly. My pH is low enough that I can't even bring it up to 6.5 without multiple applications of lime over 6 months apart with a new field. The good news is that once adjusted, it takes quite a few years before it drops enough to add 1 ton/ac of maintenance lime.

Low cost, low effort, high acreage, healthy soil, stress period timed crops, long-term sustainability, with a mixture of hard and soft mast permaculture is my long-term goal.

 

[White Birch Farm]

You stated and I quote “I got more work done while also having this discussion than most guys do all winter” Those are your words that you typed.

Yes, thank you for backtracking and admitting you were claiming that I said something that I did not. If you cant see the difference between the statements above and below, that explains your misplaced hostility.

The simple reality is a lot of guys simply dont have the tractors and equipment to do a bunch of land clearing in a few days. Many do, a lot don’t...I didnt myself until I had the need for them.

I didn’t claim to do more in 5 days than an entire habitat community does all winter.

 

[Catscratch]

You gained a benefit from the gypsum; however, lime would have been more beneficial given only the facts you provided.

I added lime a year before I added the gypsum.

 

[Rit]

This thread seems magnificently better already.

Is there a downside to too much magnesium? I did do a soil test on my destination field back in 2017. Skipped it in 18 and have no plans to do another one this year.

OM in the field was 4.1% ph was 6.5.
P was low K was medium and MG was very high.

Cation Sat for calcium was 61.9%. I try to only spray it once a year and use AMS due to the hard water. This field did have 300 lbs acre of fert added after the soil test but has not been fertilizer since.

 

[White Birch Farm]

I added lime a year before I added the gypsum.

Your next soil test will tell you a lot. Basically, until you are up to 6.5 PH or so you simply are not taking full advantage of all the nutrients already in your soil, including the calcium. So, if that lime got you up to 6.5 or over, then the benefits of more lime over the gypsum start to diminish. That is mostly true as you get very close to 7.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

This chest pounding match seems to be slowing down a bit. White Birch, in post #209 why didn't you use the trees you cut down to make biochar out of instead of just wasting the biomass on a block aid? Certainly your plots could benefit from the nearly infinite lasting effects of the char.

 

[Rit]

This chest pounding match seems to be slowing down a bit.”

The joys of an ignore button.

 

[White Birch Farm]

This chest pounding match seems to be slowing down a bit. White Birch, in post #209 why didn't you use the trees you cut down to make biochar out of instead of just wasting the biomass on a block aid? Certainly your plots could benefit from the nearly infinite lasting effects of the char.

There are hundreds of things I would love to be able to do with my time. I will admit making bio-char is not one of them. However, even if it was, I simply do not have the time. I work on my habitat far more than perhaps I even should, and I still have a multitude of high prioity projects waiting to be complete.

As just one example, I have EQIP funding to do Forrest Stand Improvemnt on the 20 acre area in the back of that picture. As I do that work mainly myself, and I have several other substantial projects funded, it is a high priority project to get to.

 

[yoderjac]

That reminds me...this forum is missing awards!

 

[H20fwler]

I got more work done while also having this discussion than a lot of guys do all winter.

Atta boy!

 

[yoderjac]

Atta boy!

Ask and ye shall receive!

 

[SD51555]

I've been working on a version of the model the guys at Grow'n Deer are also working on, that is proving to move the needle on a more holistic management system for food plotting, one that is better for deer, better for the guys installing these plots, and most importantly, better for the soil. Any idea can work in one place with one set of tools. For habitat managers, It's important to prove a concept over a number of diverse areas.

Once proven, the research is not done. It still needs to be made affordable and repeatable on a home scale. The leg of this move towards holistic management that I am working on, is applying these concepts to an extreme northern area, and without the large equipment that many habitaters do not have.

I'd encourage you guys to check out this video to see how far this process has come on Dr. Woods' farm and keep an ear to the ground for how it evolves. There are some key goals we're all after:

Eliminate tillage
Eliminate as much annual fertility application as possible
Eliminate the need to spray weeds
Cover the soil 365 days a year
Getting the soil right at the beginning and turning the fertility over to the system as much as possible

We can't break the 20th century ways of doing business if we don't seek the next answer through research, measurement, and most importantly, communicating the understanding of what pulls all facets of a healthy ecosystem together. It is only then that we can begin to stand down from the aggressive intervention of the past that called for tillage, chemicals, and annual fertility supplement. There are secrets to be unlocked in the soil, and we're very close to unlocking them.

https://www.growingdeer.tv/#/more-deer-more-food-better-deer-hunting

 

[TreeDaddy]

to the above........ aim for diversity in plantings and avoid monocultures......

bill

 

[H20fwler]

I've been working on a version of the model the guys at Grow'n Deer are also working on, that is proving to move the needle on a more holistic management system for food plotting, one that is better for deer, better for the guys installing these plots, and most importantly, better for the soil. Any idea can work in one place with one set of tools. For habitat managers, It's important to prove a concept over a number of diverse areas.

Once proven, the research is not done. It still needs to be made affordable and repeatable on a home scale. The leg of this move towards holistic management that I am working on, is applying these concepts to an extreme northern area, and without the large equipment that many habitaters do not have.

I'd encourage you guys to check out this video to see how far this process has come on Dr. Woods' farm and keep an ear to the ground for how it evolves. There are some key goals we're all after:

Eliminate tillage
Eliminate as much annual fertility application as possible
Eliminate the need to spray weeds
Cover the soil 365 days a year
Getting the soil right at the beginning and turning the fertility over to the system as much as possible

We can't break the 20th century ways of doing business if we don't seek the next answer through research, measurement, and most importantly, communicating the understanding of what pulls all facets of a healthy ecosystem together. It is only then that we can begin to stand down from the aggressive intervention of the past that called for tillage, chemicals, and annual fertility supplement. There are secrets to be unlocked in the soil, and we're very close to unlocking them.

https://www.growingdeer.tv/#/more-deer-more-food-better-deer-hunting

Excellent concept with very practical and positive results.
Jack has touched on this numerous times in various threads and posts hitting on how it is important to take better care of the soil itself and that some weeds are not necessarily a bad thing as far as it pertains to browse and overall habitat structure.
Tying all of that into this thread is the tack I have taken with my use of gypsum as a soil amending tool to help the overall health of the dirt on my farms and it’s ability to enhance micronutrient intake in plant life while potentially off setting fertilizer expenses.

 

[White Birch Farm]

“I'd recommend humic booster......and 50 lbs per acre of ammonium sulfate”

To get some independent input....I asked an agronomist whether he would recomend lime and sulphur or gypsum if he was looking to add sulfur to a relatively ca/mg balanced soil that had a PH below 7 and said he could use a 6.4PH zone for the example. Above was his answer.

That is consistent with the recomendations I received for my own similar soil from Waters Ag and a seperate fertilizer/lime/gysum salesman. The humics I applied were Kelplant 1-0-1.

 

[White Birch Farm]

This is what the field with that soil looked like the following Summer before fall plot planting.

Main underatory below all that spent winter tye at that point was a mix of clover, rag weed and spontaneous generated cool and warm season grasses.

 

[SD51555]

“I'd recommend humic booster......and 50 lbs per acre of ammonium sulfate”

To get some independent input....I asked an agronomist whether he would recomend lime and sulphur or gypsum if he was looking to add sulfur to a relatively ca/mg balanced soil that had a PH below 7 and said he could use a 6.4PH zone for the example. Above was his answer.

That is consistent with the recomendations I received for my own similar soil from Waters Ag and a seperate fertilizer/lime/gysum salesman. The humics I applied were Kelplant 1-0-1.

What crop did you tell him you were growing?

 

[yoderjac]

Humic booster......Seems like we are fixing something we broke....Perhaps if we just stop breaking it in the first place... Reminds me of the abuser nursing his girlfriend back to health after beating her up...

 

[Catscratch]

Wow, lots of judgment on this thread! Glad I've never tilled dirt or added inputs to replace what I had depleted. :)