All Things Habitat - Lets talk.....
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- Thread starter Jakarta
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B
bat man
Guest
What indicators suggest the area is overpopulated?
Just spoke with an acquaintance today briefly who had asked Leslie about it. Sounds like a special hunt with five additional anterless tags per hunter (200 total) was approved by an area manager on the basis of a ten year old deer count and the influential owner complaining of browse pressure. It sounds like no other population information exists for this parcel (500-600 acres). Standard DPA data is all that is available per the area manager but she approved the request anyway. Hopeful to have more information later. Doesn't sound good for our area. Just when I thought we had something being designated hunters choice.
sandbur
5 year old buck +
I think several state managers use the same calculator.
B
bat man
Guest
What area are you in? Please keep us in the loop.
B
bat man
Guest
Is it Bob Marge?
biglakeba$$
5 year old buck +
No shit.
We need more data or proof. That is a bit crazy sounding.
We need more data or proof. That is a bit crazy sounding.
biglakeba$$
5 year old buck +
Cant be Bob Margs area if its a Hunters Choice area.
Jakarta,
What PA is this in? Dont tell me 240. ;)
Jakarta,
What PA is this in? Dont tell me 240. ;)
This is in DPA 339. Very low population to start. The area in question is a historic wintering area. Here is the response they received from area manager Jeanine Vorland:On Wednesday, August 26, 2015, Vorland, Jeanine (DNR) <(507) 379-3401Mobile: (507) 475-290
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 9:54 PM
To: Vorland, Jeanine (DNR)
Subject 2015 Goal Setting Process - DPA 339
Jeanine Vorland
I have been speaking with Leslie McInenly in regards to the recent goal setting process that was conducted for DPA 339. She asked I contact you by phone to discuss a special hunt scheduled within the DPA. She stated you would have all pertinent information about the hunt and would be able to share details. I attempted calling you several times this week but was unsuccessful reaching you. I believe your voicemail is full as it does not allow you to leave a message.
The special hunt in question is scheduled to take place on four hundred acres within the Cowling Arboretum near Northfield, MN. In researching the history of the hunt on the colleges website it appears the hunt has been taking place for some time and additional tags have not been allocated in the past. The question I have is how you came to the determination to allow five additional management tags per hunter or an additional two hundred tags? In reviewing the DNR website I do not see any data that suggests the herd there is any larger than other areas within the DPA. Do you happen to have any additional population statistics for this area that you would be willing to share? In researching the harvest results from the hunt it appears that success has been markedly lower the last few years even though the number of hunters has increased.
2013-2014 -42%
2012-2014 -28%
2001-2014 (largest harvest) -61%
This suggests to me that the deer population has been reduced substantially already.
The thing that really has me puzzled is the fact that the goal setting process for this DPA took place just this spring. I actively participated and from the public meeting I attended in Prior Lake there was not one person who attended that stated the herd in any area within DPA 339 should be reduced. Leslie has told me there were some on-line comments with suggestions to reduce the herd but the overall consensus recommendation was to increase the herd 25% across the entire DPA. Being a land owner/ hunter adjacent to the arboretum I am very concerned what affect this substantial additional harvest on such a small piece of property will have on the deer population in the local area. Having lived and hunted in this area my most of my life I can attest to the fact that the local herd is significantly smaller than at any time I can remember.
Please advise.
Thank You
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 9:54 PM
To: Vorland, Jeanine (DNR)
Subject 2015 Goal Setting Process - DPA 339
Jeanine Vorland
I have been speaking with Leslie McInenly in regards to the recent goal setting process that was conducted for DPA 339. She asked I contact you by phone to discuss a special hunt scheduled within the DPA. She stated you would have all pertinent information about the hunt and would be able to share details. I attempted calling you several times this week but was unsuccessful reaching you. I believe your voicemail is full as it does not allow you to leave a message.
The special hunt in question is scheduled to take place on four hundred acres within the Cowling Arboretum near Northfield, MN. In researching the history of the hunt on the colleges website it appears the hunt has been taking place for some time and additional tags have not been allocated in the past. The question I have is how you came to the determination to allow five additional management tags per hunter or an additional two hundred tags? In reviewing the DNR website I do not see any data that suggests the herd there is any larger than other areas within the DPA. Do you happen to have any additional population statistics for this area that you would be willing to share? In researching the harvest results from the hunt it appears that success has been markedly lower the last few years even though the number of hunters has increased.
2013-2014 -42%
2012-2014 -28%
2001-2014 (largest harvest) -61%
This suggests to me that the deer population has been reduced substantially already.
The thing that really has me puzzled is the fact that the goal setting process for this DPA took place just this spring. I actively participated and from the public meeting I attended in Prior Lake there was not one person who attended that stated the herd in any area within DPA 339 should be reduced. Leslie has told me there were some on-line comments with suggestions to reduce the herd but the overall consensus recommendation was to increase the herd 25% across the entire DPA. Being a land owner/ hunter adjacent to the arboretum I am very concerned what affect this substantial additional harvest on such a small piece of property will have on the deer population in the local area. Having lived and hunted in this area my most of my life I can attest to the fact that the local herd is significantly smaller than at any time I can remember.
Please advise.
Thank You
Last edited:
This is the area manager response.
XXXXXXXXXX,
Thank you for your interest in deer and deer hunting. You are correct, the refuge has been hunted for many years. The Carleton State Game Refuge was opened for hunting management in response to deer grazing pressure and browsing on existing and restored natural communities within the refuge. Deer grazing pressure was having a significant impact on certain species Carleton ecologists were hoping to restore to the area. In addition, deer numbers were also high enough they were threatening the long term viability of the refuge to provide good winter deer habitat and habitat for other species dependent on these natural communities.
Extra permits have been allocated in past hunts. In each hunt from 1998 through 2013 bonus permits were available. Anyone having written permission and hunting in the 837-acre Carleton Game Refuge could purchase and use bonus permits to take up to 2 deer.
In 2014 deer hunters were limited to 1 deer per hunter and no bonus permits were issued for the refuge. Following the 2014 season, the Arboretum Director requested returning to the extra flexibility of bonus permits to help manage deer numbers in portions of the Arboretum where deer damage to vegetation was of most concern. I concurred this would be appropriate. The Arboretum continues to experience high deer grazing pressure on certain desirable plants and natural habitats. The winter had been mild and we anticipated good survival and reproduction from the resident deer.
Recognizing that bonus permits would not be available in permit area 339, we decided to establish a special hunt zone for the Carleton Game Refuge that would be administered by Carleton College Arboretum staff. The decision to allow hunters to take up to 5 deer was to give some additional flexibility. Given the established history of this hunt we can anticipate that most hunters will take no deer from the Arboretum hunt and the majority of successful hunters will take only 1 or 2 deer. Our experience with other special hunts where hunters can purchase the 3 extra tags is that only a fraction of permittees will be willing and able to take more than 2 deer. The extra permits will allow a few hunters a chance for to take additional deer to further management purposes. Having the tags available for hunters with permissions is much different than having the permits used to tag additional deer.
The number of deer taken from the refuge since 1998 has averaged about 9.5 deer/hunt. The average is basically unchanged in the years you cited, despite variations in the numbers of hunters and bonus permits being available in all but 2014. We anticipate the number of deer taken from the Arboretum hunt will be similar to past hunts.
The Department’s website does not contain additional analysis of deer densities and habitats beyond the permit area level. However, the Carleton Game Refuge does support a higher deer density than on average for Permit Area 339. The refuge contains a much higher percentage of managed deer habitat than average. It is closed to most deer hunting and adjacent to other habitats that are also closed to deer hunting or only lightly hunted. It serves as a traditional deer wintering area. At the time the managed hunts were initiated we were regularly counting deer in the refuge in the winter. Deer numbers in the refuge can vary a great deal from year to year depending on weather and other conditions. From 1998 through 2002 the counts averaged 27 deer/square mile. By 2005 the average number of deer seen in these counts increased to more than 30 deer per square mile even though Arboretum hunts were taking place nearly every year. Unfortunately, we have been unable to continue our aerial counts since 2005. In the last decade we have relied on observations made by Arboretum and Department staff of deer and, importantly, deer impacts to natural plant communities. These observations suggest that deer numbers are robust and grazing and browsing pressure on preferred foods remains a concern.
The Arboretum staff, myself and other wildlife managers recognize the importance of the lands in the Carleton Game Refuge and the Arboretum as a whole to the overall health and well-being of the deer population near Northfield. The area can and does support higher deer numbers than other lands. However, it is also important to recognize that deer densities that remain too high for too long will result in degraded natural habitats for deer and other wildlife. Hunting provides the tool to manage deer numbers in balance with these natural habitats long term. Although we have increased the number of tags available to individual hunters, in other ways the hunt remains limited. The refuge is open for only a fraction of the regular deer season, only for archery, and at a time of the deer season when hunting pressure outside the refuge is declining and the daylight hours available for deer hunting are at a minimum. Carleton is giving permission to hunt only parts of the Carleton Game Refuge and Arboretum that are most vulnerable to deer and feasible to hunt. There are substantial escape habitats available to deer in the vicinity of the hunt area. Few areas are managed and studied as intensively for the benefit of wildlife and natural plant communities as the Carleton Arboretum.
Please feel free to contact me if you have additional questions, comments or concerns. I am sorry you had difficulty reaching me last week. I was out of the office quite a bit. I have included my contact information below if you wish to give me a call. I have also copied Nancy Braker with the Arboretum with this reply. I am sure she would be happy to discuss their observations and management strategies and challenges too.
Sincerely,
Jeanine Vorland
Area Wildlife Manager
19499 780th Avenue
Albert Lea, Minnesota 56007
Telephone: (507) 379-3401
Mobile: (507) 475-2900
XXXXXXXXXX,
Thank you for your interest in deer and deer hunting. You are correct, the refuge has been hunted for many years. The Carleton State Game Refuge was opened for hunting management in response to deer grazing pressure and browsing on existing and restored natural communities within the refuge. Deer grazing pressure was having a significant impact on certain species Carleton ecologists were hoping to restore to the area. In addition, deer numbers were also high enough they were threatening the long term viability of the refuge to provide good winter deer habitat and habitat for other species dependent on these natural communities.
Extra permits have been allocated in past hunts. In each hunt from 1998 through 2013 bonus permits were available. Anyone having written permission and hunting in the 837-acre Carleton Game Refuge could purchase and use bonus permits to take up to 2 deer.
In 2014 deer hunters were limited to 1 deer per hunter and no bonus permits were issued for the refuge. Following the 2014 season, the Arboretum Director requested returning to the extra flexibility of bonus permits to help manage deer numbers in portions of the Arboretum where deer damage to vegetation was of most concern. I concurred this would be appropriate. The Arboretum continues to experience high deer grazing pressure on certain desirable plants and natural habitats. The winter had been mild and we anticipated good survival and reproduction from the resident deer.
Recognizing that bonus permits would not be available in permit area 339, we decided to establish a special hunt zone for the Carleton Game Refuge that would be administered by Carleton College Arboretum staff. The decision to allow hunters to take up to 5 deer was to give some additional flexibility. Given the established history of this hunt we can anticipate that most hunters will take no deer from the Arboretum hunt and the majority of successful hunters will take only 1 or 2 deer. Our experience with other special hunts where hunters can purchase the 3 extra tags is that only a fraction of permittees will be willing and able to take more than 2 deer. The extra permits will allow a few hunters a chance for to take additional deer to further management purposes. Having the tags available for hunters with permissions is much different than having the permits used to tag additional deer.
The number of deer taken from the refuge since 1998 has averaged about 9.5 deer/hunt. The average is basically unchanged in the years you cited, despite variations in the numbers of hunters and bonus permits being available in all but 2014. We anticipate the number of deer taken from the Arboretum hunt will be similar to past hunts.
The Department’s website does not contain additional analysis of deer densities and habitats beyond the permit area level. However, the Carleton Game Refuge does support a higher deer density than on average for Permit Area 339. The refuge contains a much higher percentage of managed deer habitat than average. It is closed to most deer hunting and adjacent to other habitats that are also closed to deer hunting or only lightly hunted. It serves as a traditional deer wintering area. At the time the managed hunts were initiated we were regularly counting deer in the refuge in the winter. Deer numbers in the refuge can vary a great deal from year to year depending on weather and other conditions. From 1998 through 2002 the counts averaged 27 deer/square mile. By 2005 the average number of deer seen in these counts increased to more than 30 deer per square mile even though Arboretum hunts were taking place nearly every year. Unfortunately, we have been unable to continue our aerial counts since 2005. In the last decade we have relied on observations made by Arboretum and Department staff of deer and, importantly, deer impacts to natural plant communities. These observations suggest that deer numbers are robust and grazing and browsing pressure on preferred foods remains a concern.
The Arboretum staff, myself and other wildlife managers recognize the importance of the lands in the Carleton Game Refuge and the Arboretum as a whole to the overall health and well-being of the deer population near Northfield. The area can and does support higher deer numbers than other lands. However, it is also important to recognize that deer densities that remain too high for too long will result in degraded natural habitats for deer and other wildlife. Hunting provides the tool to manage deer numbers in balance with these natural habitats long term. Although we have increased the number of tags available to individual hunters, in other ways the hunt remains limited. The refuge is open for only a fraction of the regular deer season, only for archery, and at a time of the deer season when hunting pressure outside the refuge is declining and the daylight hours available for deer hunting are at a minimum. Carleton is giving permission to hunt only parts of the Carleton Game Refuge and Arboretum that are most vulnerable to deer and feasible to hunt. There are substantial escape habitats available to deer in the vicinity of the hunt area. Few areas are managed and studied as intensively for the benefit of wildlife and natural plant communities as the Carleton Arboretum.
Please feel free to contact me if you have additional questions, comments or concerns. I am sorry you had difficulty reaching me last week. I was out of the office quite a bit. I have included my contact information below if you wish to give me a call. I have also copied Nancy Braker with the Arboretum with this reply. I am sure she would be happy to discuss their observations and management strategies and challenges too.
Sincerely,
Jeanine Vorland
Area Wildlife Manager
19499 780th Avenue
Albert Lea, Minnesota 56007
Telephone: (507) 379-3401
Mobile: (507) 475-2900
wiscwhip
5 year old buck +
Wow, college edumacated ramblings to try and baffle and bu!!s*!t the "uneducated" masses. Not even sure what some of that meant...like this..." Having the tags available for hunters with permissions is much different than having the permits used to tag additional deer." WTF does that even mean?
So they think they need to issue 200 tags to take 9.5 deer? "The number of deer taken from the refuge since 1998 has averaged about 9.5 deer/hunt. The average is basically unchanged in the years you cited, despite variations in the numbers of hunters and bonus permits being available in all but 2014. We anticipate the number of deer taken from the Arboretum hunt will be similar to past hunts." Either those hunters suck or there aren't any deer to shoot to begin with. @or 3 dedicated bowhunters could take 9 deer from an overpopulated area in short order. Does this whole thing have a kind of rank smell to it, or is it me?
So they think they need to issue 200 tags to take 9.5 deer? "The number of deer taken from the refuge since 1998 has averaged about 9.5 deer/hunt. The average is basically unchanged in the years you cited, despite variations in the numbers of hunters and bonus permits being available in all but 2014. We anticipate the number of deer taken from the Arboretum hunt will be similar to past hunts." Either those hunters suck or there aren't any deer to shoot to begin with. @or 3 dedicated bowhunters could take 9 deer from an overpopulated area in short order. Does this whole thing have a kind of rank smell to it, or is it me?
Terrific_tom
5 year old buck +
Sort of sounds like the County Forester from Bayfield County saying that the deer herd should be reduced more a couple of weeks ago. I think Nofo nailed it that most of these kids are all coming out of the same college programs with an agenda to reduce the deer herds to almost zero.
B
bat man
Guest
Tools for landowners who want fewer deer. No tools for landowners who want more. I would not consider that a balance. And why is this tool on the table for Northfield and not Nisswa?
Jakarta - Will they take you for a walk and show you all of this excessive 'grazing'. When did deer start grazing? I wonder if the area mgr has ever been in the place.
Jakarta - Will they take you for a walk and show you all of this excessive 'grazing'. When did deer start grazing? I wonder if the area mgr has ever been in the place.
B
bat man
Guest
Sounds like the place has some desirable late season December eats. Wintering areas are the only place my forester said he ever sees excess browse in MN. Not saying its legit in the Carleton.
Really sad I sat through stakeholder proceedings with identical interests on the team and we were told no such tools exist and the only option was DMU wide tags, then BAM the tools have always been available in a 300 zone.
Really sad I sat through stakeholder proceedings with identical interests on the team and we were told no such tools exist and the only option was DMU wide tags, then BAM the tools have always been available in a 300 zone.
sandbur
5 year old buck +
Mille Lacs lake, central Mn. deer management, and also the southeast.
Having five available permits seriously changes the attitudes of hunters. It changes the status of deer from a game animal with hunters making good decisions on harvest to hunters shooting vermin just to get rid of them. An attitude of the resource cannot be overkilled develops. (Look at the Mille Lacs resource.)
Bow or rifle, it dramatically changes attitudes which we need to get away from in most of the state.
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