CWD

[yoderjac]

I think the deer farming industry has been one of the biggest factors in spreading diseases in deer herds. Unscrupulous breeders here have scoffed at the laws and regulations transporting and selling live deer around with no concern how their carelessness could devistate the wild herd and the economy of the state along with the public hunting.
A wild deer could nose another penned deer through a fence with no problem and pick up any crap that deer farm has. I would love to see the state ban deer farms here altogether, the risk is not worth the reward just to satisfy the greed of a few.

That is absolutely the fact. When you look at the epidemiology of this disease, it is not natural. One can correlate the hot-spot outbreaks in distant unaffected areas directly to the transport of penned deer.

 

[Telemark]

It is a TSE. I agree deer will likely not develop a classical immune response as with most diseases. My point is that other factors in an organisms physiology (deer or human) can develop over time to make them resistant to a TSE. Humans are subject to CJD but it is not a common disease. Either something in our behavior or our physiology prevents the prions from causing issues in most of the population. I was just trying to provide an example that shows how organisms can develop a resistance to a disease that operates similarly.

Humans have no resistance to TSE that I've ever heard of. Do you have a source for that information?

 

[Mortenson]

"The DNR loves CWD." -- Buck

Nailed it. What an opportunity for them it's turned out to be.

 

[yoderjac]

Humans have no resistance to TSE that I've ever heard of. Do you have a source for that information?

It is stating the obvious. The prions related to CJD exist in the environment just like the prions for CWD. Very few humans get CJD. Whether some of this is due to have we have developed behaviorally, or whether things in our physiology have developed that interfere with those prions reaching the brain, or even if it is some change in how we respond to the exposure, humans and the prions responsible for CJD have coexisted for a very long time without CJD devastating the population.

I'm simply stating that given time, as BuckSutherland suggests, even if we do nothing, deer and CWD will eventually coexist in balance. Are we ok with the consequence of doing nothing? Some are, most are not.

 

[Telemark]

It is stating the obvious. The prions related to CJD exist in the environment just like the prions for CWD. Very few humans get CJD. Whether some of this is due to have we have developed behaviorally, or whether things in our physiology have developed that interfere with those prions reaching the brain, or even if it is some change in how we respond to the exposure, humans and the prions responsible for CJD have coexisted for a very long time without CJD devastating the population.

I'm simply stating that given time, as BuckSutherland suggests, even if we do nothing, deer and CWD will eventually coexist in balance. Are we ok with the consequence of doing nothing? Some are, most are not.

You are assuming WAY too much, and you are incorrect.

Not all prions behave the same, just like not all viruses behave the same.

More importantly, people don't behave the same as deer, and transmission of prions seems to be dependent on host behavior.

"A very long time" is a matter of opinion, and I would tend to disagree on that point.

The idea that things in nature "coexist in a balance" is erroneous, plain and simple. It is a popular myth, but a myth none the less. Nature is in a constant state of flux. This is not my opnion, this is a mathematical fact.

A pathogen CAN wipe out a species. In fact, the vast majority of species that ever existed on Earth are extinct, some of them from pathogens.

Balance is not only nonexistent in the world's history, it is impossible.

 

[Telemark]

https://www.lancasterfarming.com/ne...cle_c4a60597-c02c-53c6-9fac-3b9e39dc5d38.html

Maybe “seem to be resistant” was to generic. But breeding deer that have a much lower risk of being affected.

I'm apparently not allowed to access that link from Europe. But based on the URL, I would recommend you take it with an appropriate dose of scepticism.

 

[yoderjac]

You are assuming WAY too much, and you are incorrect.

Not all prions behave the same, just like not all viruses behave the same.

More importantly, people don't behave the same as deer, and transmission of prions seems to be dependent on host behavior.

"A very long time" is a matter of opinion, and I would tend to disagree on that point.

The idea that things in nature "coexist in a balance" is erroneous, plain and simple. It is a popular myth, but a myth none the less. Nature is in a constant state of flux. This is not my opnion, this is a mathematical fact.

A pathogen CAN wipe out a species. In fact, the vast majority of species that ever existed on Earth are extinct, some of them from pathogens.

Balance is not only nonexistent in the world's history, it is impossible.

Way off base in your critique. Nothing you've said here contradicts what I said. I did not say CWD and CJD prions are identical. I did not say a pathogen can not wipe out a species. I did not say people behave the same as deer.

I simply put forth and example of how organisms can respond over time to attack by things in their environment. You are reading way too much in. Can a pathogen wipe out a species. It is possible but nature generally does not work that way. In most cases, killing a host is not in the best interest of a pathogen. Even when we see a species devastated by a pathogen newly introduce (invasive species), while populations collapse, they don't generally go extinct. The American chestnut is a good example. When the blight came and devastated the American chestnut it had devastating effects. We still have American chestnuts and probably always will even if we don't intervene.

The most likely outcome whether we intervene or not is not the extinction of deer. It could certainly collapse deer hunting as we know it as a recreational activity. No one can say what will happen in the future in this case.

 

[Telemark]

I would love to see the state ban deer farms here altogether, the risk is not worth the reward just to satisfy the greed of a few

Agreed. I am generally pro liberty, but deer farming seems to not only be an industry with unacceptable risks, but now with demonstrable problems that harm wildlife and hunters.

 

[Telemark]

Can a pathogen wipe out a species. It is possible but nature generally does not work that way. In most cases, killing a host is not in the best interest of a pathogen.

Yes, nature generally does work that way. Just not on a timeline people like to discuss.

Pathogens don't have interests. They just exist, until they don't. Same as everything else. Almost every species that ever existed is now extinct. That trend is likely to continue. It's just the timeline that is in question.

 

[Telemark]

The most likely outcome whether we intervene or not is not the extinction of deer. It could certainly collapse deer hunting as we know it

That is what i said originally. You seemed to disagree.

 

[Telemark]

The American chestnut is a good example.

I would tend to disagree. Chestnut trees have very little in common with deer. The American bison is a much better example.

 

[MickT]

American chestnut is a worst case scenario. The species is functionally extinct. I’m not aware of any naturally reproducing stands of chestnut, but I commonly find scattered individuals sprouting from ancient roots that will get killed back by the fungus about the time they are big enough to start reproducing.

In both cases, the causative agent is ubiquitous on the landscape now. How many resistant chestnut populations have been found in 100+ years of looking?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[IkemanTx]

American chestnut is a worst case scenario. The species is functionally extinct. I’m not aware of any naturally reproducing stands of chestnut, but I commonly find scattered individuals sprouting from ancient roots that will get killed back by the fungus about the time they are big enough to start reproducing.

In both cases, the causative agent is ubiquitous on the landscape now. How many resistant chestnut populations have been found in 100+ years of looking?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the chestnut is an excellent example of a species that has not developed any resistance to the pathogen attacking it. It doesn’t have to be the same mechanism, or victim habit, or physiology to be a good reference.

How many millions of specimens of AC were effected, with that same number of chances of a resistant mutation... and nothing.

It is entirely possible that the deer population never overcomes CWD, and becomes functionally (or even literally) extinct.

Edit: And to be completely honest, AC blight may even prove to be an easier problem for mankind to intervene and fix. With a cross breeding species already having resistance available, and giving us a genetic reference of what specific genes can give resistance... it puts us at a HUGE advantage in that fight. Is there ANY ungulate out there known to be resistant to CWD?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[yoderjac]

I would tend to disagree. Chestnut trees have very little in common with deer. The American bison is a much better example.

Ok, nothing I can do to help you differentiate between process concepts and specifics.... I'm done.

 

[yoderjac]

I think the chestnut is an excellent example of a species that has not developed any resistance to the pathogen attacking it. It doesn’t have to be the same mechanism, or victim habit, or physiology to be a good reference.

How many millions of specimens of AC were effected, with that same number of chances of a resistant mutation... and nothing.

It is entirely possible that the deer population never overcomes CWD, and becomes functionally (or even literally) extinct.

Edit: And to be completely honest, AC blight may even prove to be an easier problem for mankind to intervene and fix. With a cross breeding species already having resistance available, and giving us a genetic reference of what specific genes can give resistance... it puts us at a HUGE advantage in that fight. Is there ANY ungulate out there known to be resistant to CWD?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Possible? yes. Likely, no.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

If the deer populations crash or are diseased enough that hunters aren't interested in them is there another animal we could introduce as a big game species to fill the gap? I'm thinking wild goats, sheep, pigs, etc.

I know pigs get a bad rap in most areas, but if the deer are gone there will be a lot of hunting landowners looking for a plan b. I don't think pigs could take over the northern us like they do in the south because of a more limited breeding period.

 

[Peplin Creek]

I'm apparently not allowed to access that link from Europe. But based on the URL, I would recommend you take it with an appropriate dose of scepticism.

There is also a local deer farm in a neighboring county doing the same thing as this article states. Deer farms, no doubt spread CWD. I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to think they wouldn’t also try to help find a fix for the problem. After all it’s there business on the line.

My guess is that CWD will never have a cure but if you can have deer that genetically take longer to contract it, maybe it can get to a point where most deer die of other causes instead of CWD and not have sustained population loss.

 

[Peplin Creek]

If the deer populations crash or are diseased enough that hunters aren't interested in them is there another animal we could introduce as a big game species to fill the gap? I'm thinking wild goats, sheep, pigs, etc.

I know pigs get a bad rap in most areas, but if the deer are gone there will be a lot of hunting landowners looking for a plan b. I don't think pigs could take over the northern us like they do in the south because of a more limited breeding period.

Do more goose and duck hunting?

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Do more goose and duck hunting?

I'm already building ponds as a plan b! But a duck doesn't quite compare to a deer though

 

[SD51555]

I think you guys forgot where CWD came from. It was developed in Fort Collins, CO by the US Fish and Wildlife Service and perfected in 1967 specifically to try to control cervids. This facility specifically existed to do exactly what CWD is doing. You guys better wise up and realize this is going to devolve into a civil rights issue and eventually a property rights issue. Deer farms are easy. There are so few and everyone hates them. Taking them out legitimizes this charade.

Who's going to be the next scape goat? It's going to be you guys with private land and your food plots and your hoarding of deer with premier habitat. You think the general public, and public land hunters won't eventually rise up and demand you to be "dealt with" as well? It's coming, and you'll have set the stage for it.

http://co-labs.org/labs?id=11