CWD

[yoderjac]

I dont have an issue with anything Jack listed, my issue is with the mass killing of thousands of deer in the surrounding areas (which is what they are doing in Missouri). It just seems to me that the deer herds best chance for a cure is natural selection. A dead deer shot over a corn pile in the summer will not survive and pass that trait on to their young.

Well, I can't speak to the efficacy of significant population reduction in managing CWD. It will probably take a generation (of people not deer) to understand the effects of population reduction. It makes sense in general terms, but we don't know enough about all the disease vectors of CWD to say if it is the right or wrong management method (re homej's point). We can't oversimplify this. Just because we know this is a spongiform disease driven by prions and we know prions can be viable for tens of thousands of years, that doesn't mean they can infect deer. If these prions can be viable for that long in the future, they have been there that long into the past. There is much we don't know. And radical population reduction could be the best thing we can do and should do or it could turn out to be futile.

The problem with you "natural selection" idea (genetics and epigenetics) is that the results are booms and busts. It works over the long haul as it is the algorithm of nature. The question becomes, are you wiling to take deer hunting unavailable to your kids and maybe their kids to allow natural selection to take its course? That may be what it takes. I think most game departments aim for a sustainable healthy population of deer with natural up and down cycles but not the extreme boom and bust. Will a dramatic population reduction ruin deer hunting for you and perhaps your kids and save it for your grandkids? No one knows for sure yet.

Here is the theory: Deer breed at a fixed rate. If deer are killed indiscriminately over a wide, it doesn't generally impact the gene pool one way or the other. Fewer deer means that the disease is transmitted at a lower rate (fewer infected deer and fewer interactions with uninfected deer). Epigenetics can take several generations to express. So if there are deer in the population that are resistant to the pathogen, those genes will generally be expressed. Keep in mind, this might not be a direct resistance, it may be behavioral. In other words, the genes expressed may affect a deer's behavior in such a way that it is less likely to be exposed. Changes in the underlying gene pool take much longer than epigenetic expressions. They are typically only achievable in free ranging deer by huge population reductions. Why culling deer for larger antlers only works behind a fence or by killing a very large number of deer over a wide area. With culling you can only remove deer based on 50% of the genetics (male). With general severe population reduction you are not removing deer based on any genetic characteristic, just removing deer and then letting the disease cull naturally. I'm not saying this works, just that there is a valid basis to consider it. The professionals debate it.

Fortunately those kinds of measures have not been necessary here...yet. Will the proactive steps our state is taking make them unnecessary or delay them? I don't know, but I'm glad they are trying early rather than waiting for the problem to severe as is the case in many areas.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Big Snow Man]

In sauk county

Ya your starting to get into the hot zone. I know guys around Plain that shoot 8 or 9 deer a year and about 1 or 2 are not positive.

 

[Telemark]

I think CWD isnthe greatest threat to deer hunting as we know it.

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely deer will ever develope immunity to it.

 

[gunther89]

Are you sure that's the same deer? It seems like a huge change in 2 weeks. Do you have any pictures in between the pictures on the 15th and 30th? That's quite a sequence of pictures though.

I don't know what the CWD answer is, but since the disease stays in the soil I'm pretty sure we can't shoot our way out of this problem. I think an accurate and quick CWD test would be a huge first step.

We have pictures of him with 1 side on and you can tell he's starting to look skinny. He also became super daylight active. He was in our food plots at all hours of the day, with a bunch of pictures late morning and early afternoon.

 

[yoderjac]

I think CWD isnthe greatest threat to deer hunting as we know it.

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely deer will ever develope immunity to it.

What would bring you to that conclusion?

 

[MickT]

I think CWD isnthe greatest threat to deer hunting as we know it.

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely deer will ever develope immunity to it.

What would bring you to that conclusion?

I tend to agree with him on both points. How does a deer have an immune response to something made in its body and that’s not alive? For deer to become unsusceptible, CWD would have to kill off the entire susceptible genotype and the immune genotypes be close enough to each other to reproduce.

Herbicide resistance develops from a single, hyper-acute selection force on a population of billions each season. An individual weed can produce thousands of offspring each year. A doe will optimistically bring off 2, and maybe one of them will survive to reproduce. CWD acts much slower. I doubt I’ll see an immune strain of deer in my lifetime anyways.


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[homerj]

The solution deer hunters should be advocating for is affordable, accurate, private, and timely CWD testing. Instead of spending millions on an unwinnable war on deer, just make test kits widely available.

 

[MickT]

Carcass restrictions. CWD spreads at 70 mph in the bed of a pickup.


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[Peplin Creek]

For what it’s worth....One thing to note. Some deer farms have started breeding deer that have genes that seem to be resistant of CWD. If truly successful I could see this as being part of a solution to the problem.

 

[yoderjac]

I tend to agree with him on both points. How does a deer have an immune response to something made in its body and that’s not alive? For deer to become unsusceptible, CWD would have to kill off the entire susceptible genotype and the immune genotypes be close enough to each other to reproduce.

Herbicide resistance develops from a single, hyper-acute selection force on a population of billions each season. An individual weed can produce thousands of offspring each year. A doe will optimistically bring off 2, and maybe one of them will survive to reproduce. CWD acts much slower. I doubt I’ll see an immune strain of deer in my lifetime anyways.


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Why hasn't CJD (parallel disease) devastated the human population? It has all the same qualities you outline. You both are right in a technical sense as we think of the immune system responding to a pathogen. That does not mean deer can't adapt to it. There are may ways the physiology of a deer could change to make them less resistant. We understand common ways prions enter the body, but don't really understand how behavior in deer increases or decreases this. The presence of CWD could, over a long time period, advantage genetically driven deer behavioral traits that reduce chances of exposure. Once the body has been invaded, the prions still need to make it to the brain for the symptoms we currently see with CWD to occur. We are still learning about this in TSEs. We used to believe they were able to penetrate the blood-brain-barrier. Recent research shows indicates that the nervous system may provide the pathway. The point is that some unknown percentage of deer probably already possess physical characteristics that make the pathway (whatever it turns out to be) less available to prions. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/11/181129142438.htm

The immune system is not the only way organisms respond over generations to attach from their environment.

While I don't necessarily concur with Bucksutherland's conclusion that our response should be hands-off, he absolutely correct that the problem will likely self-correct given enough time. The questions become: Are we willing to accept the consequences of doing nothing and allowing the nature to take its course? Will radical population reductions give populations the breathing room needed for them to respond naturally much faster or is it futile? Can it even be done effectively? If intentionally expose deer to CWD can we identify a subset of the existing population that is resistant? (like exposing apples for testing). If we find a resistant population, can we identify individual genes or gene combinations that are related to resistance? If so, can we, or should we artificially introduce these genes into the current populations?

There are many more questions than answers when it comes to CWD. Even harder than managing deer in a CWD world is managing hunters and their expectations!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SD51555]

I don't understand how erradication can't be completely hindering the recovery pace of gene resistant deer.

If a deer is going to die from CWD, it's gonna happen somewhere in years 2-4. If a resistant buck lives, and he can breed X number of does, and a % of those does are also resistant, they'll have far more offspring over a longer life than those dying from CWD. A dead doe at age 3 or 4 may only have 1 or 2 fawns, and likely those will be eaten by predators. A veteran doe (that lived beyond her CWD expiration date cause she's resistant) and has the skills to keep a fawn alive would up the superior gene population much faster and at a better recruitment rate.

Killing them all is surely going to stifle the match making to grow out of this.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't understand how erradication can't be completely hindering the recovery pace of gene resistant deer.

If a deer is going to die from CWD, it's gonna happen somewhere in years 2-4. If a resistant buck lives, and he can breed X number of does, and a % of those does are also resistant, they'll have far more offspring over a longer life than those dying from CWD. A dead doe at age 3 or 4 may only have 1 or 2 fawns, and likely those will be eaten by predators. A veteran doe (that lived beyond her CWD expiration date cause she's resistant) and has the skills to keep a fawn alive would up the superior gene population much faster and at a better recruitment rate.

Killing them all is surely going to stifle the match making to grow out of this.

It is not eradication, but significant population reduction. Who knows if it works, but the theory is to slow spread. If disease spread is slower, there are more generations of deer that have more time to adapt. The other concept is containment. We don't know what all the disease vectors are, but let's say that dead infected deer produce some condition that makes infection of other deer in that area more likely for a very long time period. If one allows CWD to kill deer in high numbers, not only is that area more contaminated than if populations are reduced by other means, but fewer infected deer leave the area to infect currently uninfected areas.

Again, there are arguments on both sides, both have a logic basis. Many decisions are political. How much does one care about a hot-spot county verses the entire state? How much does one care about and infected state verse as yet unaffected states? There are multiple trade-offs and interests. The science is still fuzzy. There is a lot we know but much we don't know yet.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Telemark]

Some deer farms have started breeding deer that have genes that seem to be resistant of CWD.

You have a source for that? Everything I've read says they can prolong the life of infected deer, but no one has been able to demonstrate immunity in an animal.

 

[Telemark]

It has all the same qualities you outline.

What qualities do you mean?

The species is not the same. The behavior of the species is not the same. The mode of transmission is not the same. You can't just say that's a prion, this is a prion, they're the same.

 

[Peplin Creek]

You have a source for that? Everything I've read says they can prolong the life of infected deer, but no one has been able to demonstrate immunity in an animal.

https://www.lancasterfarming.com/ne...cle_c4a60597-c02c-53c6-9fac-3b9e39dc5d38.html

Maybe “seem to be resistant” was to generic. But breeding deer that have a much lower risk of being affected.

 

[MickT]

You have a source for that? Everything I've read says they can prolong the life of infected deer, but no one has been able to demonstrate immunity in an animal.

https://www.lancasterfarming.com/ne...cle_c4a60597-c02c-53c6-9fac-3b9e39dc5d38.html

Maybe “seem to be resistant” was to generic. But breeding deer that have a much lower risk of being affected.

Call me a cynic, but I’m suspicious any time the deer farming industry says they have the answer. There’s plenty of anecdotal evidence that they had a (big?) hand in it spreading around the country.


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[SD51555]

Where the OP's deer died, has their local deer population declined? Last I heard, the counties with endemic CWD have herds as big as they've ever been.

 

[H20fwler]

Call me a cynic, but I’m suspicious any time the deer farming industry says they have the answer. There’s plenty of anecdotal evidence that they had a (big?) hand in it spreading around the country.


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I think the deer farming industry has been one of the biggest factors in spreading diseases in deer herds. Unscrupulous breeders here have scoffed at the laws and regulations transporting and selling live deer around with no concern how their carelessness could devistate the wild herd and the economy of the state along with the public hunting.
A wild deer could nose another penned deer through a fence with no problem and pick up any crap that deer farm has. I would love to see the state ban deer farms here altogether, the risk is not worth the reward just to satisfy the greed of a few.

 

[yoderjac]

What qualities do you mean?

The species is not the same. The behavior of the species is not the same. The mode of transmission is not the same. You can't just say that's a prion, this is a prion, they're the same.

It is a TSE. I agree deer will likely not develop a classical immune response as with most diseases. My point is that other factors in an organisms physiology (deer or human) can develop over time to make them resistant to a TSE. Humans are subject to CJD but it is not a common disease. Either something in our behavior or our physiology prevents the prions from causing issues in most of the population. I was just trying to provide an example that shows how organisms can develop a resistance to a disease that operates similarly.

 

[BuckSutherland]

We are all supposed to follow the law and bury our deer or make sure carcasses and sensitive tissue ends up in the landfill, but our MN DNR doesnt have to follow the rules they make for the rest of us. You will never convince me that this site didnt contain CWD positive deer. The DNR loves CWD. Gives them a license to do whatever they want and of course they get more MONEY!! Of course nobody got reprimanded or lost their job from this shit show.

https://www.postbulletin.com/news/l...cle_e23d8548-42b5-5889-b6a1-7dd37949082d.html


One of the worst cases of gross incompetence I can ever remember. Just remember when you hear, "hi, I'm from (insert favorite govt agency) and I'm here to help," run the other way. These assholes are never going to shoot their way out of CWD and should stop trying and wasting millions immediately. Its a complete scam.