Survey or not to survey?
- Thread starter hunts_with_stick
- Start date
Buyer beware on OnX and fence lines. My buddy had a shit fit over a neighbor he thought was either hunting his land or right on the line.
After confronting the neighbor about it and making a lifelong enemy, he had it surveyed.
In the end, ONX and the fence line were WAY off and my buddy not only couldn’t make the guy move his stand, he found out that he had planted 50 apple trees on the neighbors land!!!
I told him that some people say crow tastes like chicken….
After confronting the neighbor about it and making a lifelong enemy, he had it surveyed.
In the end, ONX and the fence line were WAY off and my buddy not only couldn’t make the guy move his stand, he found out that he had planted 50 apple trees on the neighbors land!!!
I told him that some people say crow tastes like chicken….
PatinPA
5 year old buck +
My county GIS doesn't even have the shape of my parcel correct. From what I was told the original owner of my property accidentally built his camp on the neighboring farmer's land. After the fact they did a land swap to make up for it. But the GIS doesn't show the original parcel shape or the new parcel shape. It's somewhere in between.
FarmerDan
5 year old buck +
Does it concern you that the county tax and/or ownership records are or might be incorrect? Do you have a survey plat? I ask because back about 20-years ago when the old paper county maps and records were digitized/computerized you might have been surprised at the confusion that resulted from edge matching property boundaries and the attempts to reconcile data with the maps there supposed to represent that data. For the most part county government will assume they are right until you present a documented challenge. I have stories!
4wanderingeyes
5 year old buck +
When I bought my land I had it surveyed, because the actual measurement of my land by the road in feet was off by about 1/3, on the short end, and much more in the back of the property. It was suppose to be 1/4 mile, and was under 700 feet wide in the back, and about 1000 feet wide in the front by the neighbors no trespassing signs, and painted tree, should have been 1320. After having it surveyed the back line grew a lot in both directions, and the front was mostly just to the south. It put the property line down the neighbors driveway. He only took out the post and threw it on the ground, back where he had the land posted before. I met with and explained to him that is the property line, now I wont make you move your driveway, but dont encroach further past the edge of your driveway, and after his driveway curved off of the property line, I put the post up there to mark the line. Now he just chucks his crap in that spot. I never had any intention to make him move his driveway, and honestly still dont, but the guy has been an ass ever since, even though I have never done anything other then marked the property line. I get pictures of him wandering my land, even long past the old no trespassing signs.
Morel of the story, get one done, for your peace of mind. But be prepared to piss off the neighbor, even when you are being a nice guy and continue to let him use your land that they claimed as theirs.
Morel of the story, get one done, for your peace of mind. But be prepared to piss off the neighbor, even when you are being a nice guy and continue to let him use your land that they claimed as theirs.
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
You hit the nail on the head. Surveying technology has advanced dramatically in the last 15 years. The precision of a certified survey matching the legal description is much more accurate. Old surveys and property lines evolved over the years and were often guided by fence lines, trails/dives, etc. Getting a certified survey will be very accurate.
The problem is that when your survey shows a change in property lines, it just doesn't affect your neighbor, it can affect multiple properties. Still better to have one than not as you have a survey that matches the legal description, deed, and title insurance.
One aspect not talked about is Title insurance. The survey should show easements and other encroachments that may be on the property. It will also tell you the acreage you are buying. Don't trust the title company to get things right. Have the survey be a part of the title insurance. Good cheap protection in the event you discover something that was not disclosed by the seller.
FarmerDan
5 year old buck +
An acquaintance I hunt with bought a farm, mostly woodland, advertised as 100 acres, more or less. It was priced at 100 acres...more or less. Upon transfer my acquaintance had the land surveyed. I don't know about situations in your parts of the world but I have been surprised more than once about how much land has not been surveyed. Anyhow, it turned out there were about 150 acres in the acquired parcel. The seller sued the buy demanding additional compensation for the "found" acreage. The court said to the seller, "Sorry but you sold it more or less.!
My good friend's father was in the land speculation business. He bought something like 500 acres of timberland and sold part of it to a timber company without a survey. The two parties agreed on the acreage and the deal was done. For more than 20 years my friend paid taxes on the 250 acres. He recently sold it and had it surveyed before the sale. There were only 207 acres still in his ownership. There's no backward looking for adjustments.
I have several more stories like this, enough to make me question any assumptions made about who owns what.
Don't guess.
My good friend's father was in the land speculation business. He bought something like 500 acres of timberland and sold part of it to a timber company without a survey. The two parties agreed on the acreage and the deal was done. For more than 20 years my friend paid taxes on the 250 acres. He recently sold it and had it surveyed before the sale. There were only 207 acres still in his ownership. There's no backward looking for adjustments.
I have several more stories like this, enough to make me question any assumptions made about who owns what.
Don't guess.
This just seems backward to me, respectfully. I don’t want a neighbor that that hates me, whether I was in the right or not. Another example of the benefit of surveying before closing.
I’ve said it before. A survey is important but no more important than a consistent understanding of the boundaries between all involved landowners. The land I own had a survey done before closing. What was more important to me than the survey results, though, was that the acreage within the boundaries recognized by the neighbors matched the number of acres I was paying for. And I was able to determine that myself to a degree of precision that suited me. I viewed the survey as beneficial only in the event that neighboring land changed hands (to someone other than me). It has not, much to my dismay!
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
The problem with that is a) who is responsible for the survey? The survey on my place was around $15k. B) surveyors are backed up months especially on large tracts so who is going to pend a sale based on the results of a survey for that long?
How important is being a good neighbor? And having good neighbors?
Sorry. More thoughts.
You could do the independent part of the method I described. With some legwork and 20-year old mapping technology you can identify the contentious spots pretty easily. Estimate a worst-case acreage discrepancy. Let’s say it’s 2 acres and you’re paying $4k/ac. Is losing the deal worth $8k? Are you that tight on the decision to buy or walk? If so, walk.
We constantly agree about how important good neighbors are. Why would one immediately undermine that when they have the choice to just pass on the sale up front?
Ignoring this tact and humility goes hand in hand with progressive subdivision of rural land.
ETA: Another option: get it under contract and talk to the neighbor about the lines and estimate acreage yourself from those conversations during the due diligence period.
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Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
Yeah the bottom suggestion seems more likely. I have a 185 acre tract im about to sell. If someone said “hey I want to put this under contract but I need to split a survey cost with you and make due diligence period extend 3 month until a surveyor can get out here”, I would say no so fast his head would spin. Additionally if a potential buyer even could get a survey done extremely quick (which likely would never happen), who in their right mind would shell out thousands on something that, depending on the results, could just be a giant waste of money if they deceived not to proceed on the property?
I get it from a perfect world type deal but I’ve just never seen that be a realistic option on anything larger than a few acres. I guess the other strategy would be to just tell any neighbors after closing that you just bought and you are getting a survey. You could say since there hasn’t been a recent one and you don’t want to encroach on any of them this will clear up the lines from my end.
I agree surveys can be a giant waste of money. It’s just naive to do one after the fact, get heavy-handed with a neighbor, and expect a good ownership experience. Not saying that’s what you did. And I hear you on the contingencies etc.; that complicates things. But I think there are ways to assess the risk and understand when it’s better to walk away.
Hoytvectrix
5 year old buck +
How do people feel about using multiple platforms to measure the area yourself and then check that with a known area within the property? For example, your property is a perfect square 40 acres. You can go out and measure a field that you know is exactly 2.5 acres from a measuring wheel or whatever. Measure the area of the property using OnX or ArcGIS to compare and see that it matches up?
I understand the property boundaries are often not visible from low elevation aerial photography, but when they are, what is the risk? All of your fences could actually be 5 feet to the east but the total area is correct?
I understand the property boundaries are often not visible from low elevation aerial photography, but when they are, what is the risk? All of your fences could actually be 5 feet to the east but the total area is correct?
4wanderingeyes
5 year old buck +
Can you check with the county and see if there are any location pins in the area? When I had mine done the neighbors opposite property line had one, so it was fairly easy for me to use a roller wheel to see the lines were way off, and I could have a fairly accurate guess of where the lines should be. I have since bought that neighboring property so the location pin is my property line now. The surveyor also put a pin on the back of my property line for a marker back there. I thought this was a great idea, until I would get random surveyors walking my property with the excuse of locatining a pin to do a survey. It’s only happened 2 times that I know of, but both times I was never informed ahead of time.
FarmerDan
5 year old buck +
You have a valid point. But I think it might be a difficult idea to grasp for someone who has no no idea of the GIS processes available. For anyone buying or selling land I would assume either side - or both - have some idea of where the land is and an idea, even if vague, about where they assume the property lines to be. So, find someone who can draw lines on a digital map and let the process calculate the acreage. At one end there's Google Earth. At the othe,r I think most counties have someone familiar with GIS or even have GIS departments. Most local NRCS staff are competent with GIS and for FSA staff the skill is essential.
Another of my stories. I have been intimately involved with FSA and GIS. One day one of the FSA folks - this is early in the adoption of GIS - asked if I could tell him the acreage in a parcel next to his farm. I could and did. I asked why he wanted to know. The parcel was for sale, advertised as 20 acres. My simple 5 minute calculation made it 29 acres. He bought it for the asking price.
Another. Again, early in the adoption of GIS at FSA. A county executive director shared this story. He was demonstrating the capabilities of GIS to a local farmer. The farmer asked the director if he could tell him the acreage in one of his fields. In a couple minutes work the director told the farmer it was 15.2 acres. As the story went the farmer got all red faced and irritated. It seems the farmer has just paid a surveyor $1,500 to tell him the same thing.
Someone up above commented about the possible inaccuracy of aerial imagery. It can be...but usually not in area but in shift - a little off (by feet) north or south, east or west.
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
I have a funny story about perceived acreage too. When I bought my first farm I was all bent out of shape cause the acreage was not jiving with onx, tax map, listing, etc. Felt like it was short. Well I argued this with the agent and it almost killed the deal. Landowner had a tractor for sale for $17k at the farm I was buying. I negotiated it down to $9k to keep the deal alive. Never got a survey or worried about the acreage. In reality it was probably fine but I was young and hung up on the accuracy of computer maps.
PatinPA
5 year old buck +
Yes I have the official survey and land swap. It's at the courthouse. Plus I work with surveyors so I borrowed a handheld GPS when I bought the property and marked all of the corners. It's not 100% accurate but it was close enough to what the documents said. I chalk the GIS site up to someone connecting the dots incorrectly. I'm not worried about it. I myself still have yet to figure out the NW corner of my property. I think mine is right but 3 of us all meet at one point and there are at least 3 corner stakes down there that I've found.
drycreek
5 year old buck +
I had virtually this same situation. I bought a small piece of property to live on years ago, as did several others. The guys who divided the property made a creek the dividing line between me and another guy. That’s great if you don’t need a fence, but the neighbor wanted a few cows. Guess what side of the creek he fenced. He tried to make it right by “giving” me an equal amount on up our property line. I didn’t want that because I’m thinking ahead to when I sell that place and move it’s gonna have to be resurveyed and more paperwork involved. I just told him to fence on his side of the creek .
