Would you ever buy something, not knowing what it is?



I admit, I stuck my head into the QDMA forum. I couldn't help but notice one of my old friends was soliciting business again. I'm not sure if he realizes it or not, but he is trying to sell a product, while intentionally concealing the variety of seed. I can't think of anything more shady a merchant could try to pull. Much less, is that even legal? Don't seed dealers or sellers have to "tag" the seed they are selling?

I don't care who you are, I can't trust anyone trying to pull such a trick. Obviously this switchgrass seed is available to consumers at a lower price. He is simply concealing the exact variety of seed, to trap comsumers, while marking up the price. I'm not questioning the holdability of the grass through winter, what he is doing is just horrible business. It is plain crooked.

I don't want to turn this into a bash that forum. I'm just wondering if people are actually falling for this? This sort of scenerio can repeat itself in many ways, when it comes to buying seed. So, I believe it is a good topic to discuss.
Why dont you post this on the QDM forum so he can defend himself. Better stil why even bring it up AGAIN...
My uncle sells BOB seed in his store. I mentioned he should make his own blends to sell. He told me it would be a nightmare. You have to have a seed tag on every bag. It has to be tested for content and germination rates. No seed tag, product has to be pulled, product goes past date it has to be pulled. This is NY, he has had some government agent (not sure which one) come in and check all the bags for tags. If the dates expires he has to send the seed back or get new tags. I thought you could just put it on clearance as old seed but no cigar. I am not sure if it is state specific but in NY you can't sell seed without a tag saying exactly what it is.
Ummmm, me :oops:. I bought some of his Switch and Bedding in a Bag last year, but I also visited his test plots and was impressed. As I just posted on the thread in question, I was a plant breeders technician for 3 years in college and was involved in a bunch of field trails for the seed company I worked for. His test plots appeared to be on the up and up. Sure, one could still game the system if they wanted to bad enough, but why do so on plots you are testing to select the best seeds to sell? From what I was told, and I have no reason to not believe him, the test plots I saw were plots created when he was going through the seed selection process.

Mo is right, both Bedding in a Bag and his Switch have seed tags. Just like virtually every seed tag out there in resold mixes, it really doesn't say anything, though (i.e. Real World Big Blue Stem....Origin, the state it came from (can't remember)).

To me, his price was very comparable to what I could get other places. So, I didn't see the risk. Frankly, unless I could get it cheaper (and most blends of Big Blue, Indian and Switch I found cost considerable more...His Switch, I found some more expensive and some less), I didn't see the risk in not knowing the exact variety he sells.
Yep I bought 50 lbs last winter because I liked the height difference over generic CIR and the standability in winter.

Believe me, it was not because I was following the blind. He and I had few differances over there on occasion early on. I don't have to be a coolade drinker or a guys best friend to buy something. He had what I wanted and I wasnt going to let my bunched panties keep me from getting it.

There was a seed tag on it.

In three years, if I can, I'll compare publicly. The only thing that will keep me from comparing is if it is a failure. My sprayer hit it late last spring and growth was light. We'll see in year two and three.
Dipper you love stirring the pot on the two forums I have seen you on and seem to love to do it where it will be a one sided bash where the person you talk about probably won't be involved. It's unfortunate you and another person who was also a sh!t slinger on the other forum both are on this one and manage to drag it down too.
Obviously some groupies still made their way to this site wow. I thought there was never such a thing as a bad question. I'm bringing it up because there is a crook behind every corner. We pick hairs all the time when it comes to our investments, on this site. Pretty sure the site is all about picking hairs....maybe my point isn't quite clear, Mo is maybe getting me.
This is just one example of the shady business out there, anyone who promises anything in this world, especially secret insider products, is hiding something for a reason. This is just a prime example of that, there are many more.
How many people out there would buy an apple tree that is promised to be the best apple there is. You contact the seller, and he refuses to tell you nothing more apple the apple, it is just the best apple. Knowing what many of us know about apple trees on this site, would you trust this guy? Even if he was Johnny Apple Seed Himself? Now if Johnny Apple is open and honest, he is going to inform the smart consumer, of the rootstock and it's traits; along with the variety of apple.
Mo-you are right about most people. They are ignorant, and real easy to prey on. Besides a few, I believe many on this site are pretty smart. I was at a local retail store called Jung's, and they had a deer apple for $15.99. They were flying off the shelf. It's half price, and it's a deer apple right, it's got to be good. I asked the clerk if she knew any details about this apple tree. She didn't, so I had her get the manager. Of course the manager didn't either, she said it was a deer apple. She refused to contact the nursery, and we went are seperate ways. I wouldn't doubt those deer apples were nothing more than some rejected rootstock of some type, that were just plugged into the ground.
To me, it's unfortunate the world has to be this way, but that is capatialism right?
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Choices...which site should I spend my time on. It's getting to be a toss up! Neither one is fun anymore... :(
I think these are things we have to constantly be thinking about. It is easy to fall prey to slick marketing, on anything. I owe it to my family to be educated when I am spending money. That is my intent.

I'm doing this publicly rather than privately, because I want everyone hear to what I have to say.

If you (or anyone else here) has a beef with something posted here, please let me know. I'll do my best to make it good.

This site is NOT to discuss what someone else is doing on another forum that you don't agree with. If you take issue with what is being said 'over there' go over there and plead your case. But don't drag it over here.

I respect your position (not even saying I disagree) and your knowledge. But the bar is higher here than some other places. I can't and won't put up with degrading others with nothing added to this forum.

Please respect me back and keep discussions like this off of this forum.



I'm doing this publicly rather than privately, because I want everyone hear to what I have to say.

If you (or anyone else here) has a beef with something posted here, please let me know. I'll do my best to make it good.

This site is NOT to discuss what someone else is doing on another forum that you don't agree with. If you take issue with what is being said 'over there' go over there and plead your case. But don't drag it over here.

I respect your position (not even saying I disagree) and your knowledge. But the bar is higher here than some other places. I can't and won't put up with degrading others with nothing added to this forum.

Please respect me back and keep discussions like this off of this forum.


I probably shouldn't have started the thread with that detailed example, it just got me thinking. I didn't think someone would blow a gasket. However, I'll stand behind my reason to start the post. I think it applies to many aspects of our lives, not just food plot seed or apple trees. That's where I was trying to go with it, some just can't control themselves. Thanks Mo for your knowledge onthe subject, I always appreciate an insiders point of view. I respect honesty, that's what get's business.

Did you understand my reasoning for not wanting that discussion here? I'm doing my best to be reasonable (and respectful).

thank you John for making this clear to us.

I respect dippers, mos, and others opinions, but it is time to plant some trees and seed.

Time to move on!
If we take the individual/specific company out of the equation, I think this is a good/beneficial topic. Besides, you can't really pin it on any one of the BOBs, as every one of their seed tags I've ever read (and I've had to read a bunch for articles when the editors tell me, "include a sidebar on new seed blends from _____, _____, _____, _____ and _____") are all equally of no value in determining exactly what's in the bag. I rarely enjoy doing that, but it's also the price of poker in my field. So, in that regard at least, I see absolutely no difference between any of them, and everyone that's ever bought a BOB has bought without knowing exactly what's inside.

The real question is if BOBs have value. IMO, for some yes, some no, some others yes and no. I fall in the last group. Over half the seeds I plant each year are purchased from seed dealers. That's typically cheapest, but requires a level of expertise in knowing exactly what I want. In a couple other cases, I can't determine the exact strain/variety (I always mess those two up for some reason) of a white clover or canola used and haven't found one that gives me the specific combo of traits I value in them. So, I buy the BOB mix. Or, in the case of WSNGs, I just don't have the time to test a bunch and find the one that has the traits I want (so I added 4 hours to a trip to look at the end product to determine if it had the traits I wanted). Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, but I don't believe doing any of that makes me a sucker. I'm simply willing to pay a bit more to produce the exact results I want and either don't have time or the ability to do it in specific cases on my own, despite conducting my own field tests every year.

Take the BOB clover blend I use. Frankly, I use it because in my field tests, I found the white clover to have the 2nd best drawing power of all the white clovers I've tested, while consistently being in the group with the fastest germ rate and being the most drought tolerant of any I've tested. That combo of traits is very important to me. No doubt I could save $ by going to the seed dealer, but during the drought of 2012, using that BOB literally saved my butt in WC IL (I don't count WI & MN, as they are easy to grow in by comparison). All the farm crops in the area were nearly complete failures, including both mine and the farmers on that ground. According to both those I work with in the area and neighbors, all food plots were failures (and my none clover plots were, as well), but I had thriving 1st and 2nd year clover plots, the worst of which went dormant for less than 3 weeks, only to rebound before season. That's important to me. So, IMO, that's worth it.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on BOBs. I'm merely explaining that I don't believe just because someone buys a BOB that they are a sucker. Of course they are going to cost more, but in some situations that's worth it, IMO. In others, it's not, but it's up to the buyer to decide. So long as they are making a somewhat informed decision, I don't see it as a problem (of course, the BOBs will rarely help one make an informed decision, outside of which blend they sell that should be best for a situation.......That said, would you expect a car dealer to tell a potential buyer that they should go to their competitors lot down the road or a grocery chain to tell you to put those steaks back, because the other chain in town is running a meat sale and has better cuts?)
Yeah, I noticed that post you are referring to, MO. Not only do I think it's admirable, but it made me want to buy stuff from you. I suspect I wasn't the only one that felt that way and that you will pick up more business in the long run by taking that approach. You have to admit that you doing that is far from standard practice for the overwhelming majority of businesses, though. Amazingly few play the long game.

No doubt, you are painting an accurate picture of a major buying group for BOBs. That said, there also has to be more people than just me that don't fit that description, but have what they also believe are legit reasons for buying a % of BOBs at times. If I could find a white clover on my own that was as good or better match of traits I want on my own, I'd be all over it. Same with a canola I used (I can get deer on the same farms to eat various canolas I've found on my own, but not hammer it like they do that stuff).

It's not "cool" at all for someone in my position to use any BOBs. People love it when I tell them about mixing cereal rye, bin oats, DER, PTT and radishes to top seed over soybeans, as many automatically believe I've come up with some super secret formula that's better and cheaper than they could get elsewhere. Suddenly, my "expert" status just jumped a notch in their eyes, and I do buy and recommend more seeds from dealers than BOBs, as I've been able to come up with satisfactory results with other plantings. I just can't justify not telling them that I haven't been able to beat "this clover" or "that brassica mix" even if it doesn't make me look cool. I haven't found the golden ticket on those 2 yet, and I haven't done any real field tests with WSNGs. I just know I was disappointed in the standability of the CIR I've used in the past.
And sometimes you just do business with someone simply because they are always there for you and niceness goes a long way. I buy nearly all seed and fert from 2 co-ops in the area. They are always very competitive on prices even tho not the cheapest. And I'm always treated as a friend when I walk thru the door even tho my measly purchases don't compare to their sales to bigtime farmers. I want them to make money so they will be there for me. I do this with anything, whether it be automobiles or seed. Personality means a hell of a lot.
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My problem with BOB seed is the companies prey on the uniformed. This seed is developed specifically for deer and if you want to have bigger/healthier deer you need to use these products...because we all know cattle clover is for cattle. They guilt people into using the product and also those people are unaware of other products that can be used.

Take whitetail institute herbicides for example...they are a total rip off! I have posted these numbers before, I will post them again...how do you trust a company that does this to their customers? $2.69 per acre OR $55.90 per acre! These herbicides do the same thing...kill grass!

I have some numbers for you...

WI Arrest pint size:
$27.95 per pint covers .5 acres: $27.95 x 2 pints = $55.90 per acre

WI Arrest gallon size:
$138.98 per gallon covers 3.5 acres: $138.98 / 3.5 acres = $39.70 per acre
(Rate per acre is approximately 36.5 ounces per acre)

Rural King Tide Clethodim gallon size:
$59.98 per gallon plus approximate shipping of $15.00 = $75.00 +\- covers 18 acres +\- (rates can vary from 6-8 oz per acre to a higher rate for tougher perennial grasses. I used an average rate of 7 ounces per acre to get 18 acres per gallon.
$75.00 /18 = $4.16 per acre.

MOBuckChaser Clethodim:
$48.50 per gallon includes some shipping. Covers 18 +/- acre (depending on rate used) 128 oz / 7 oz = 18 +/- acres (same as above)
$48.50 /18 = $2.69 per acre.

$55.90 / acre WI product (pint size)
$39.70 / acre. WI product (gallon size)
$4.16 / acre Rural King product (gallon size)
$2.69 / acre MOBuckChaser (gallon size)

All the above herbicides need to have a surfactant added to the mix. Check with MOBuckChaser for a price on clethodim.
Just some quick numbers on surfactants to use with the above herbicides...remember though the WI product is developed specifically for the food plotter...so it's obviously better for the deer.

Without even shopping for a cheaper alternative...I found that:

WI surfactant comes in a pint container, enough to do 2 Acres...$10.00 or $5.00 per acre.
Surfactant from Rural King, 2.5 gallons, enough to do 40 acres...$32.00 or $.80 per acre.