Winke Gave Up On ROD

I had pondered using the title, "Off with his head!" How dare anyone speak ill of the effort to restore ROD?


In all seriousness, he's got a good point on how hard it is to get ROD going and keep it from getting browsed away. I've got no actual beef with Winke, but I thought it'd be a decent thread to bat around while it's winter. I've had similar challenges getting ROD going, and have since learned how to beat the deer without a ton of time, or hauling a ton of garbage (cages and posts) into the woods. So, here are my top tips to re-establish ROD if you're struggling with it. #1 and 3 have produced the largest impact on the entire property.

1. Increase total browse - Find your barometer browse. Mine was ash stump sprouts and basswood stump sprouts. When those started getting browsed less, and even not at all, I realized I was getting ahead of the deer. Once you're ahead of them, they won't have to search as much for something to eat, and less looking means there will be spots they don't eat.

2. If you're planting ROD, keep it away from deer trails. If deer trails don't matter, make them matter. Get enough brush and timber on the ground that the deer need trails. If it's a park, they can go wherever they want and eat everything, or just leave altogether.

3. Make big surface area brush piles. Especially if you have big timber species that have no standing up habitat value (basswood, aspen, poplar, dead conifers, tag alder, diamond willow, cottonwood, box elder, ash), get them on the ground and make a big area the deer will not want to climb into. Dead balsam fir is a great exclusion material. The branches seem to stay on the dead trunk forever and hold up the whole log. I learned this one by accident. I made a decent sized snag of ash logs and brush, and ROD popped up inside it on it's own. That was 5 years ago, and the snag is still intact and the dogwood is already bigger than the deer can eat.

4. If you want to protect some strategically placed dogwoods, plant a shitload in one hole. I've had nothing but great results from putting 20-50 plants (not cuttings) in one large hole. ROD wants to root graft together, so you can take a bunch of individual stems that may only be 16" tall, and transform that into a giant legacy looking bush in 3-4 years.

5. Go find heavily browsed ROD that already exists and put a fence around it. I know that's counterintuitive from what I just said about not hauling in garbage, but those that are already there and growing have the benefit of more roots than top, and can be grown way faster than introduced bushes. Plan to invest in some portable fencing, meaning you'll rehab that bush and move the fence 3-4 years later once that bush is too big for the deer to eat it to the ground. Look for the ones browsed back to 12" and there are lots of stems together. They'll be back to 5' in one year, and in another few, they'll be coarse enough, they can't get reduced to 12" again.

6. Find your existing ROD that isn't browsed, and put the sunlight to it. Knock down everything around it, and then stack that brush around it. One effort produces protection and increases sunlight.

7. Go light on fencing materials. I've been using plastic tenax fence with no problems. It's lighter, requires less post strength to hold up, and is far cheaper. It can be had for 50% less per foot than wire fencing. Here's a link to tenax on amazon.




Comparing what works in your woods with Winke's woods is like comparing Nancy Pelosi after a half a gallon of vodka with Sydney Thomas.... Same goes for most of the other posters on HT. They actually have great deer numbers unlike those of us stuck hunting in wolf-filled shithole NC MN. They have 100x the deer pressure that you do.

If a person is certain they want to establish something a cage is the best way possible. In many cases its the only way possible. Also, if you are looking for post they are readily available on fakebook marketplace, craigslist and local auctions for $2-3/ each.
 
I chuckled at Mr. Winke's comment that he'd rather have something low maintenance like apple trees....
He has hundreds, if not thousands of wild apple trees on his property. Zero maintenance.
 
He has hundreds, if not thousands of wild apple trees on his property. Zero maintenance.
It's funny to me because I could have a million wild apple trees but if I planted one or any, the deer would specifically hammer them....perhaps out of spite? I have not been so fortunate to call apples low maintenance.
 
Ordered a few of it's distant cousins today. 25 pussy willow and 25 witch hazel. State forester local to the area says red dogwood doesn't do well up in my area of the adirondacks, told me to plant grey instead. I planted about 40 or so silky dogwood at camp last spring. See it it survives the winter.

Besdies a little pruning videos, I watch zero habitat stuff on youtube. Seems you guys thin out the B.S. and have experience to boot.

Red dogwood is still going to be on the docket, buying from the local county soil and water seedling sale. Would like to find some source of grey though.

I've had lower maintenace girlfriends than some of my trees when the bugs are around.
 
He has hundreds, if not thousands of wild apple trees on his property. Zero maintenance.
I've hunted on a property that had hundreds of wild apple trees that were able to survive both deer and cattle browsing. They started shrub like and short from the browsing pressure until they were eventually able to send a central leader up that got above the browsing pressure. Then the top of the tree looked like a regular apple tree, but the shrub like base remained and acted like a natural tree cage protecting the trunk.

When I originally saw Bill's video, I thought there is no way those ROD will thrive without deer protection in Iowa. I like SD's ROD plan that uses brush piles as a natural browse guard on ROD. Once the brush pile eventually breaks down, the ROD should be large enough to withstand browsing pressure.
 
I saw some in a ditch the other day and ran down and snipped some tops off. Probably too cold to stick them in the ground now, huh? Do I put the cuttings in a ziplock with a moist paper towel and put it in the fridge til spring?
 
I saw some in a ditch the other day and ran down and snipped some tops off. Probably too cold to stick them in the ground now, huh? Do I put the cuttings in a ziplock with a moist paper towel and put it in the fridge til spring?
Almost certainly it is a little too early in PA. I always do mine in early March.
 
I saw some in a ditch the other day and ran down and snipped some tops off. Probably too cold to stick them in the ground now, huh? Do I put the cuttings in a ziplock with a moist paper towel and put it in the fridge til spring?

Get some pots and some potting soil. Tall skinny pots are best. Keep them watered, and they should root. Then you can plant them out later.
 
Ordered a few of it's distant cousins today. 25 pussy willow and 25 witch hazel. State forester local to the area says red dogwood doesn't do well up in my area of the adirondacks, told me to plant grey instead. I planted about 40 or so silky dogwood at camp last spring. See it it survives the winter.

Besdies a little pruning videos, I watch zero habitat stuff on youtube. Seems you guys thin out the B.S. and have experience to boot.

Red dogwood is still going to be on the docket, buying from the local county soil and water seedling sale. Would like to find some source of grey though.

I've had lower maintenace girlfriends than some of my trees when the bugs are around.
I think MDC sells grey.
 
I think MDC sells grey.
Kinda think I am knucklehead, got 13 trees to put in, 3 of them I got to dig up ontop of it. 7 or 8 trees at home, potting 25 for the summer/fall transplanting. And I got 25 pussy willows and 5 witch hazel to put in. This little doggie knows how to chase his tail.

I might want 10 to plant at home and keep a few pussy willows for easy sourcing for camp for the years to come. Douby witch hazel grows from clippings. Still might plant 2 or 3 at home somewhere shady.
 
Just my two cents. I guess I look at things in a different way. He stated the deer density was 65 deer per square mile. That would be 1 deer per every 10 acres. 1 acre can produce between 1000 and 2000 pounds of browse. So if the property was managed properly each deer would have at least 10,000 pounds available. One deer eats approximately 2000 pounds per year. The conclusion I would come up with is that if a deer is walking by all that browse to eat red osier dogwood I would want more of it….
 
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