What changes do you see from year to year?

I've seen so many factors that go into why things change from year to year that I don't even know where to begin. Sometimes, it's us and we don't even know it. darn near every hunter thinks they hunt smart. I know I always believed I did and continue to strive to. Still, I learned this past spring that the access I had for one of my stands allowed dang near every deer I was hunting to watch me walk in and climb the tree. That's obviously not smart hunting. In fact, it only took me doing it a couple times and the daylight pics of the two bucks using that area stopped and one of them left all together. I have no doubt that I, you know, "Mr. Professional How-Too Deer Hunting Expert" single handedly drove them to stop using it during daylight and even pushed the better of the two out of that area. At the time, I assumed their "patterns" just changed...Until I put the pieces together last spring and realized it was no doubt all me. I moved the stand site, altered access and just killed the biggest buck of my life there last sat afternoon...5.5, 173 5/8th, feeding a full hr before dark on the 2nd day of IL firearm season...And that's after hunting that stand several times before.

My point is that we can all often benefit from looking deeper in the mirror. Often times, we believe we are doing everything right, when, in that specific situation, we are really the problem. I know that applies to me more often than I'd care to admit, at least.

Another big one is what is going on with the properties around us. Several properties I manage, nearby farmers rotating crops has a big impact on what happens on the place I manage. On the stupid big properties I've managed, that doesn't matter nearly as much. On the 80-400 acre pieces, it's often a very big difference maker. Heck, I've had something as simple as a neighbors wife getting preggers have a big impact. She wasn't doing well (thankfully, everything worked out fine). So, her, her husband, their buddies that would mess around with them out in the woods, they pretty much stayed out of the woods that season. So, they weren't driving their deer over to my little piece. Just that caused a significant hiccup in mature buck sightings on that place. It was still a good year, but not the "great" yrs the owners had grown accustom to experiencing. If I hadn't been sharing intel with that specific neighbor, I'd have never had a clue why.

My point is that most all of us here try so darn hard to control everything we can, and I am supremely confident that helps a ton (at least when we're doing it "right"). Still, there are sooooooooooooooo many factors and sooooooooooo many variables that impact what we are trying to achieve that we're never going to understand "why" in an awful lot of cases. Worse yet, it often way too easy to jump to faulty conclusions on the true cause. Still, we keep trying to find those answers, eliminate the problems and we're better off in the long run.

I see all of this as being just like playing poker. You consistently try to make moves that up the odds and play the odds and you win far more in the long run than if you don't. Sure, you'll have the yrs where your pocket Ace, King doesn't hold up against the jack wagon that stayed n with 10, 3, but I'm still betting (or slow playing) the Ace, King every time. In the long run, I'm going to win a lot more...but sure not every time.
 
What changes do I see from year to year?

I see a lot of changes in the last 10 years to our property. Sadly what I have come to realize at a very slow rate is that 120 acres is not enough to attain goals.

What I have not seen change is our deer harvest.

Our neighbors continue to shoot at all costs. Direct neighbors that adjoin our west line shot 5 for 7 this year. Neighbors to the east a half mile went 5 for 8. Direct property on our east boundary doesnt have any deer hunters at all.

Bottom line, Batman is right..... Our goals were unrealistic because our neighbors kill everything we dont kill. We have come to terms that a 2.5 year old is fine to shoot. Sad to say, we havent even seen a 2.5 to kill during gun season now for 5 years. This year we saw ONE buck total on the farm during gun season, and my son passed on it. Just a yearling 6 pt. That is the only buck that has been seen on our land now since gun season opened. I am so beyond fed up I have nightmares... Well maybe a stretch but frustrating as hell we cant do more in the area we are in.

We have killed no deer with guns since 2011. I have never shot a buck on the property in 20+ years of bowhunting. I have not shot a deer since 2002 with my gun. My Dad has not shot a deer since 2005.
Total deer tagged in the last 10 years off this Ottertail County chunk is 6!!!! 6 deer in 10 years. Not deer I have shot... 6 TOTAL for everyone that has hunted the land.
My son has taken a 125" 9 pt in 2009, and sadly shot a 145" 10 pt with bow last year that we didnt recover... The neighbor did.
Other than that, we have not even seen a 2.5 yo buck or older while on stand in the last 10 years in total.

We pass, we pass, we pass.... and nothing has changed..... What changes do I see year to year? not the changes I want to see.
Do we resort to shooting the first deer we see and be happy with that? Not a chance in hell I can go to that extreme.

signed,
One super frustrated MN deer hunter with hunting land in Gods country......
BLB - Wow I can feel your pain and passion just from reading your post. We had a similar situation a few years ago and still do to some degree. One of our properties is a long skinny piece and the hunters on the north and south borders were brown its down mentality. We have basically made our property into the thickest nastiest place we could with lots of trails promoting movement east and west to food sources rather than north and south where the ag fields are located. Every year we mention what we are seeing and passing to the neighbors and it is getting better every year. I know it is frustrating to let a buck pass and then watch it get shot by the neighbors but we figure if we shoot them then they are for sure dead if we let them pass then they have a chance. It has been frustrating but more and more neighbors are starting to manage and every acre you gain only helps. Can you increase the cover on your property to try and keep the bucks on your land more during daylight? Can you increase the size of your sanctuaries? Just trying to offer some suggestions since I have been in the same place. Our neighbors took some massive steps back this year in regards to managing their land for bucks. We have the opposite problem most on here do. We have too many does and we want the neighbors to shoot more does rather then bucks. This darn cross tagging is really frustrating and the CO will be getting calls if it occurs next like it did this year.
 
I've got neighbors on one property that are truly great in every way. I don't know if this helps or not, but they are always asking me if I think they should shoot various bucks. My answer is always the same, regardless of age or score. If he's going to make you happy, kill him. If he's not going to make you happy, don't. To me, deciding goals is really that simple. Now, if they are unrealistic, you may never achieve those goals. Still, it doesn't make a lick of sense to me to kill deer that don't make you happy or to pass deer you'd be happy to kill, regardless of age or score.
 
Congrats on the buck Steve!
 
BLB, do you have any contiguous marsh on your property?

One feature I believe is key to having the opportunity for better deer and better bucks is contiguous marsh on your property. The marsh doesn’t have to be gigantic but it has to allow bucks to get away from pressure and survive our deer season. The bigger bucks that I see being harvested are near large marshes that allow deer to survive. I have neighbors that are brown as down but the marsh provides an impregnable block where nobody goes accept wildlife. I think this is key as it provides a secure place for deer no matter what your neighbors do.

I think that is why some bucks make it to age 4/5 or older is the ability to hit the cattail/cane grass and nasty swamp areas to survive.
 
I understand what you're saying Steve, but what's the answer if you'd like to eat venison once every 3 years or so? Won't shoot a doe, no mature bucks to be taken...empty freezer....year 3. I have no problem going a year or two without taking a deer...but going much more than that really begins to try my patience. I don't have the luxury of hunting multiple states/properties to insure that I've always got venison from somewhere...pretty much "stuck" with hunting on my 87 acres. If I don't get it done here...I don't get it done.

Shoot a nubbin buck or a 1.5 before dispersal. Neither impacts your property's future potential at all, even a little bit. Both are almost always going to be driven off your ground before the rut at 1.5 anyway.
 
I've got neighbors on one property that are truly great in every way. I don't know if this helps or not, but they are always asking me if I think they should shoot various bucks. My answer is always the same, regardless of age or score. If he's going to make you happy, kill him. If he's not going to make you happy, don't. To me, deciding goals is really that simple. Now, if they are unrealistic, you may never achieve those goals. Still, it doesn't make a lick of sense to me to kill deer that don't make you happy or to pass deer you'd be happy to kill, regardless of age or score.

I strongly agree. I hate it when people shoot a buck because he was a cull or they just want to get his genetics out of the herd.
I feel they are just offering an excuse for shooting a young buck. If they did not want to shoot him, don't shoot him, period. We are far from the point of worrying about genetics in central Minnesota. different situation in Texas and some other properties.
 
I understand what you're saying Steve, but what's the answer if you'd like to eat venison once every 3 years or so? Won't shoot a doe, no mature bucks to be taken...empty freezer....year 3. I have no problem going a year or two without taking a deer...but going much more than that really begins to try my patience. I don't have the luxury of hunting multiple states/properties to insure that I've always got venison from somewhere...pretty much "stuck" with hunting on my 87 acres. If I don't get it done here...I don't get it done.

Stu-You are getting closer and closer to what I have been doing. At age 60, I want to eat venison every year and do not want to wait 3 years to grow another decent buck. I imagined my attitude changed about 6 or 7 years ago about passing all young bucks. About the time not many does were available. We should have stopped shooting does 5 years ago.
 
Stu--If you have a bow tag, you are welcome to come and shoot a doe at my farm in the late season. I'm an hour away and I have a HIGH doe to buck ratio that could use some minor adjustments. We've shot 2 does so far and we could stand a third or fourth (this is the biggest block of cover in the county) so it would not hurt my area at all.

If not I understand too....
 
Or more. Its been 3 for me here now and it obviously needed to start well before that point.

I don't need a deer every year (would be nice, but not "necessary") but every other year would sure be nice. Its crazy to me to think about purposely targeting nubbin bucks...but I think that may be the "best" solution for this property...at least if I want to eat some venison every once in awhile.

One more year using my current management tactics. If it pays off, then I'll be pleased. If it doesn't...then the tactics are going to change.

Pulled a couple SD cards today. Got at least one decent 8 and spiker that are still alive. Time will tell if any of the other bucks made/make it.

John Ozoga has had some interesting articles on shooting fawns. They mostly applied to the north country, and not quite where we live and have standing corn or feeders instead of just browse.

but like wolc from the dark side used to say, those fawns taste great.
 
Appreciate the offer very much bwoods. If I had a bow tag I may have taken you up on it.

If you were to marry BWOODS he could transfer a landowner tag to his new spouse. But that would be really weird. Really weird. I should not have even typed it. I don't know why I even thought it.

Deer do strange things to the mind.
 
Regarding some of the questions posed about our place, I have been taking some pictures from stands the last few weeks. I plan to get a land tour thread started to show aerial with plot locations, stand locations, views from stands, etc.
I will also include all the projects we have done where and what took place.

I am wide open to suggestions.
 
I am wide open to suggestions.

This is one of the few places in the world a man should tread hoping to be proven wrong-
 
BLB, I know this would be hard to do, but maybe decide not to hunt your property next year during rifle season. Bow hunt it early and muzzleloader late, but go hunt some public land during rifle. Just leave it completely untouched for a week prior to, and during the rifle season. Leave your cameras out during the season and see if you see any difference from past years.

I say that knowing that I wouldn't/couldn't do it myself but if you are totally out of ideas that might be worth a shot. If it doesn't change anything at least you tried something different.
 
Stu-You are getting closer and closer to what I have been doing. At age 60, I want to eat venison every year and do not want to wait 3 years to grow another decent buck. I imagined my attitude changed about 6 or 7 years ago about passing all young bucks. About the time not many does were available. We should have stopped shooting does 5 years ago.
I am 31 and want venison every year. An empty freezer of red meat has forced me to buy a lamb from a friend. I passed a spike the other day and now think I might have made a mistake.
 
Bow hunt it early and muzzleloader late, but go hunt some public land during rifle. Just leave it completely untouched for a week prior to, and during the rifle season.

One thing I have said many a time.... I will never hunt public land during gun season. NEVER.

Public hunting is not only frustrating, but can be dangerous....
Hunting ducks at Sherburne Natl refuge, we had a shore hunter send 2 slugs through our decoy spread... Yes, slugs. That bastard thought they were ducks and was trying to get them off the water and hope for a shot is all we could surmise. You talk about scary shit.
Hunting ducks at Carlos Avery, I had a boat set up shop within 75 yards of us. Gotta love public hunting, we had flashlights and gave them the flash, but they chose to set up. They shot at "tweetie" birds several times, and one of that shots hit me square in the back of the head and drew blood from my ear. I am damn lucky I wasnt facing that direction, or I might just be blind in an eye or two today....

I will NEVER hunt deer on public land with firearms.

With that said, rifle season is the only time my Dad hunts. So to tell him we are skipping the season isnt an option. We will be gun hunting the property without question.

I do agree with your thoughts though. But it is an option that I have to rule out.
 
One thing I have said many a time.... I will never hunt public land during gun season. NEVER.

Public hunting is not only frustrating, but can be dangerous....
Hunting ducks at Sherburne Natl refuge, we had a shore hunter send 2 slugs through our decoy spread... Yes, slugs. That bastard thought they were ducks and was trying to get them off the water and hope for a shot is all we could surmise. You talk about scary shit.
Hunting ducks at Carlos Avery, I had a boat set up shop within 75 yards of us. Gotta love public hunting, we had flashlights and gave them the flash, but they chose to set up. They shot at "tweetie" birds several times, and one of that shots hit me square in the back of the head and drew blood from my ear. I am damn lucky I wasnt facing that direction, or I might just be blind in an eye or two today....

I will NEVER hunt deer on public land with firearms.

With that said, rifle season is the only time my Dad hunts. So to tell him we are skipping the season isnt an option. We will be gun hunting the property without question.

I do agree with your thoughts though. But it is an option that I have to rule out.

I dunno. I hunted public land for deer most of my life. I was kinda proud of the fact that if you do your homework you can score on good deer. But....you gotta do your homework! We did all kinds of stuff to get away from the crowds and tried lots of new methods. Makes life interesting. Not saying we killed the biggest deer in the woods.....but we had a good time.....and managed to score a few good ones. Never say never. :) If I did not own my current land.....our group would be hunting public land and would be happy doing so. Just saying.
 
I have had many enjoyable hunts on public land, but most of it has been on land to the NE of BLB. Perhaps there is not as much public land available as NE Mn.
 
I dunno. I hunted public land for deer most of my life. I was kinda proud of the fact that if you do your homework you can score on good deer. But....you gotta do your homework! We did all kinds of stuff to get away from the crowds and tried lots of new methods. Makes life interesting. Not saying we killed the biggest deer in the woods.....but we had a good time.....and managed to score a few good ones. Never say never. :) If I did not own my current land.....our group would be hunting public land and would be happy doing so. Just saying.

Back in the early 80s I hunted north of Grand Rapids on State land. We found an old railroad grade and were a mile off the road. We never shot anything huge but it was remote hunting and we had some great times back then. Back then we didn't have the clothing and gear we have today but we made do. Luckly I was young and could take the cold. I remember opening the tent door and stepping into the snow bank.

Good guys and times I won't forget.
 
Back in the early 80s I hunted north of Grand Rapids on State land. We found an old railroad grade and were a mile off the road. We never shot anything huge but it was remote hunting and we had some great times back then. Back then we didn't have the clothing and gear we have today but we made do. Luckly I was young and could take the cold. I remember opening the tent door and stepping into the snow bank.

Good guys and times I won't forget.
I like that country, also. And there used to be deer up there at that time. I took a run up there to grouse hunt this fall and talked to a couple of local residents. They spoke of seeing a doe in August and a buck some time earlier in the summer. That is all, where you used to drive 5 miles of road and see 20 deer in one night (during the best year).

Still, BLB, I would look for some public land to spend part of the bow season. Head east.
 
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