Warm Season Grass Alternatives

[PackerBacker]

After doing a lot of reading, seem to get conflicting opinions on warm season grasses as part of a habitat plan in Northern Wisconsin. Anyone willing to share their 1st hand experience in colder climates?

Any alternatives that I might want to explore? Looking to provide fawning cover and bedding areas (non-day time). I have a few areas that are thick with ferns that does use now but plan calls for a few other locations and not sure if I should attempt warm season grasses or go a different direction.

 

[Freeborn]

After doing a lot of reading, seem to get conflicting opinions on warm season grasses as part of a habitat plan in Northern Wisconsin. Anyone willing to share their 1st hand experience in colder climates?

Any alternatives that I might want to explore? Looking to provide fawning cover and bedding areas (non-day time). I have a few areas that are thick with ferns that does use now but plan calls for a few other locations and not sure if I should attempt warm season grasses or go a different direction.

I'm writing this on a phone so a short response. WSG need to be tailored to the longitude and soil type. WSG work if selected correctly. Often a Grass that will grow to 5' will reach its potential and perform better than a grass that will grow.to 7' on good soil. I have short grass mix on poor soil that is taller and thicker than tall grass varieties on poor soil/sand. The shorter varieties still can get to 4-5' and do better in droughty soils. In western mn and SD short grass mixes provide better stands.

 

[PackerBacker]

I'm writing this on a phone so a short response. WSG need to be tailored to the longitude and soil type. WSG work if selected correctly. Often a Grass that will grow to 5' will reach its potential and perform better than a grass that will grow.to 7' on good soil. I have short grass mix on poor soil that is taller and thicker than tall grass varieties on poor soil/sand. The shorter varieties still can get to 4-5' and do better in droughty soils. In western mn and SD short grass mixes provide better stands.

Willing to share what is in the mix? Any recommendations on where I can find what grows best for my longitude?

 

[PackerBacker]

Norway spruce spaced 12x12

Is there a big difference between Norway spruce and white spruce? I have been ordering from the state nursery for my tree plantings.

 

[scott44]

Is there a big difference between Norway spruce and white spruce? I have been ordering from the state nursery for my tree plantings.

My understanding is Noways are supposed to be faster growing than the Whites. You ever think about the combination of both spruce and NWG's ?

 

[sandbur]

Is there a big difference between Norway spruce and white spruce? I have been ordering from the state nursery for my tree plantings.

They are different.

Norway spruce might do better in heavier soil and might tolerate southern areas a bit better.

Alternative to NWSG-reed canary. Don't plant it, but if you have it make the best of it.

 

[younggun1849]

My understanding is Noways are supposed to be faster growing than the Whites. You ever think about the combination of both spruce and NWG's ?

I'm planting 3,000 White Spruce on our farms. We will be planting them at 15 x 15 foot spacing. I will be planting rows of switchgrass between the spruce for additional cover. I'm interested to see how this plays out over the coming years.

 

[wiscwhip]

I'm writing this on a phone so a short response. WSG need to be tailored to the longitude and soil type. WSG work if selected correctly. Often a Grass that will grow to 5' will reach its potential and perform better than a grass that will grow.to 7' on good soil. I have short grass mix on poor soil that is taller and thicker than tall grass varieties on poor soil/sand. The shorter varieties still can get to 4-5' and do better in droughty soils. In western mn and SD short grass mixes provide better stands.

I missed this thread the first time around.
Free, what you might be seeing in your situation is the difference between the upland and lowland ecotypes of switchgrass. Lowland ecotypes of switchgrass which are typically tetraploid and have taller upright growth, stiffer stems, and are primarily from more southern locations(examples would be Alamo, Kanlow, and Timber and are from TX, OK, and NC respectively and obviously grow in more lowland areas). Upland ecotypes which are typically octoploid and are shorter, produce more tillers, and are found in more northerly locations(examples would be Cave-In-Rock/IL, Sunburst/SD, and Dacotah/ND, and grow in dryer, more upland type areas). While not set in stone, Shelter switchgrass is an upland type from WV, these guidelines generally hold true. Keep in mind that switchgrass varieties will always do best when they are planted at the same latitude they are adapted for or one latitude zone north, to go any further is asking a lot. You want almost certain disappointment, plant Alamo in northern MN or WI and you will see for yourself.

 

[Freeborn]

In my situation I have 50 acres of NWSG most of it on dry sandy soils at a latitude similar to Brainerd Minnesota. I wanted a tall/thick stand of NWSG on most of my CRP (43 acres) and then a pollinator mix (short grass mix with higher count of Forbes) on the remaining 7 acres for pheasant chick production. The 7 acres is on a very dry sandy site on my property while the 43 acres includes both dry and wet/better soils.

When comparing the quality of NWSG stands of the short vs. tall mix on dry sandy soils the short grass mix clearly out performs the tall grass mix in thickness and quality. The short grass mix is dominated by Little Bluestem, Side Oats Gamma with much smaller percentages of Indian and Big Blue stem. My tall grass mix is dominated by large percentages of Indian, Large Blue stem and Dakota Switch. On my wet/ better soil the tall grass mix performs very well but on dry poor soils it is performing very poorly and not as well as the short grass mix. I understand from my NRCS office that western Minnesota through the Dakotas recommends a higher percentage of short grass mixes as these areas are generally dryer (more Arid).

If I was planting on a dry site on a northern region I would want a higher percentage of short grass mix and a small percentage of tall grasses. In addition, I have found that Dakota Switch is darn near worthless unless on very good soil. On my dry soil it has performed very poorly and to the point that I will be inter-seeding short grass mixes into these dry areas to improve the thickness and quality of the stand.

I describe the quality of the stand as the thickness of the stem, how vibrant it appears and how close it comes to its potential. On my poor dry soils the tall grass mix appears thin and anemic compared to the short grass mix.

One thing to keep in mind is most of us northern planters are not going to have stands of NWSG that look like what is grown on great soil in Iowa or Missouri where stands are 7+ feet tall and so thick you can’t hardly walk through them. In my case where I have open AG land where I have added edge (spruce, Crab-apple, Plum plantings) mixed within my NWSG it is providing quality bedding and cover for deer and pheasants.

 

[wiscwhip]

Free, have you tried Sunburst or Forestburg? They may work for you as well.

 

[Freeborn]

I have not but will keep them in mind. There are not many resources that provide real world input on how these grasses perform on different sites. Most these grasses require 3 years to get a good read on how they are performing so you can burn up some time figuring it out.

Thanks for the ideas.

FB

 

[wiscwhip]

Free, keep in mind that you can get a bunch of different varieties of switch seeds from GRIN. You could do your own "real world" input on your own dirt. GRIN supplies enough of each variety to plant a 3' x 3' area. Perfect little experiment if you have a small area that you could dedicate a few small squares of ground to. You would be testing standabilty for winter wildlife cover. With the limited space it would take up, you could give it 3 or 4 years and monitor the progress without taking up a ton of useable plot space, then you would have a very good idea what would work best in your area. You could possibly request 2 of each type for testing in a low area vs drier ground at the same time. Just a passing thought I have been having, and I would be doing if I had the ground to pull it off.

 

[Rally1148]

I'd look at native prairie over a pure NWSG stand. It's one of the best overall habitats as far as biodiversity and overall use is concerned (not just for deer). Mixed height or tallgrass prairie would be great for fawning cover. As far as bedding. A few spruce or cedars surrounded by a 10 yard strip of NWSG would work great for bedding.

If you're worried about which species will work best, buy a few plugs of each (or even grow your own) and see how they do next to each other. How large of an area are you looking at?

As far as 1st hand experience, my neighbor planted (I think at a pretty aggressive rate) some switch on sandy hills on his property. He could never get anything else to grow there. It has taken off and is so thick you can hardly walk through it. This is right next to an ag field, so it gets some use. On my own property, I don't have any NWSG yet, but I plan to replace half of my food plot with native prairie with some DCO's and hazelnuts. I CAN say that when I let my plot go fallow, it had some incredible fawning cover I had vetches, some volunteer rye and weeds coming up. Turkeys and fawns galore, even on that one acre.

From my own observations, the best fawning cover is where there is a mix of heights of structure. I constantly see/run up on fawns that are bedded in between a blow over, with ferns surrounding them, with some shorter (1-2 foot) grasses. I've never witnessed adults bed there, as IME they tend to bed with some sort of overhead cover, or in a place where there is some strategic advantage of bedding there (favorable wind, hard to get to without noise, good visibility etc...) Basically I've found that the best fawning cover is usually pretty similar to good rabbit cover. Lots of nooks and crannies!

 

[Freeborn]

Free, keep in mind that you can get a bunch of different varieties of switch seeds from GRIN. You could do your own "real world" input on your own dirt. GRIN supplies enough of each variety to plant a 3' x 3' area. Perfect little experiment if you have a small area that you could dedicate a few small squares of ground to. You would be testing standabilty for winter wildlife cover. With the limited space it would take up, you could give it 3 or 4 years and monitor the progress without taking up a ton of useable plot space, then you would have a very good idea what would work best in your area. You could possibly request 2 of each type for testing in a low area vs drier ground at the same time. Just a passing thought I have been having, and I would be doing if I had the ground to pull it off.

That is a good idea and I should reach out to them. I do prefer a mix of grasses but with winters being what they are a strong stemmed tall grass that will hold up in deep snow would be a winner.

Rally1148, what variety of Switch did your neighbor plant and how far north is his property?

FB

 

[Rally1148]

We're zone 5a/b. So it's not even close to as far north as you, although it stands up pretty well in the snow and wind (which is quite a bit, since it's next to a 10 acre field) I'd reach out to Prairie Moon nursery. I'm not sure where they are located in Minnesota in relation to you, but it's worth a shot. I've gotten some seeds from them, and they've always been EXTREMELY helpful. You can buy seed "packets" that'll have a a few hundred seeds (depending on the size). You can also check with the GRIN program.

I'm not sure on what type of seed he used. He got it from the local pheasants forever. He hasn't even ever mowed it, and it's doing well.

 

[PackerBacker]

I'd look at native prairie over a pure NWSG stand. It's one of the best overall habitats as far as biodiversity and overall use is concerned (not just for deer). Mixed height or tallgrass prairie would be great for fawning cover. As far as bedding. A few spruce or cedars surrounded by a 10 yard strip of NWSG would work great for bedding.

If you're worried about which species will work best, buy a few plugs of each (or even grow your own) and see how they do next to each other. How large of an area are you looking at?

The area in question is about 30 acres but about 10 acres is being planted in red pines with spruce bedding areas scattered within. Around that, plan on planting a combination of brush and shrubs for natural browse. Another 5 to 7 acres will be converted to food plots. If I had to guess total area of the NWSG, I would assume about 5 acres but plan was to plant on outside of the shrubs as a buffer zone along where I plan on building cabin and the trails that we use through property. That is why was looking for non-day time bedding cover and fawning area so I don't spook them during hunting season. As you mentioned above, probably 10 to 20 yards wide to provide enough buffer zone.

My other thought was to plant a couple rows of spruce with the hybrid poplars and willows I discussed with John and use that as a screen and leave the natural fern areas along on the other side of property for fawn cover.

 

[Rally1148]

Are the 5 acres spread out into smaller plots?

I think the daytime bedding the NWSGs is pretty variable. I personally don't have much experience with (or really much of a clue about) daytime vs. night time bedding areas.

 

[PackerBacker]

Are the 5 acres spread out into smaller plots?

I think the daytime bedding the NWSGs is pretty variable. I personally don't have much experience with (or really much of a clue about) daytime vs. night time bedding areas.

No - the 5 acres of NWSG would essentially be a long skinny planting that would run a good portion of the 30 acres. It would run inside our driveway opposite of the property line and then continue all the way back along the inside of the 4 wheeler trail that is on the property line.

 

[wiscwhip]

How wide?

 

[Rally1148]

I'd say NWSG of some sort, and then a row of spruce closest to your path. Minimal bedding under spruce if you keep the branches low. One row thick, there shouldn't be too much bedding, if any at all.