Under armour giving into the anti's or in the right?
- Thread starter Jordan Selsor
- Start date
M
MoBuckChaser
Guest
I have been gambling in the stock market since the late 70's. And that is just what it is, gambling. You are gambling that a Trillion dollar hedge fund doesn't short your stock or mutual fund on you and drive it down, it happens all the time. You are gambling that we don't have another 911, you are gambling that we won't have another dot com bubble, and many other things that can happen. With all that being said, the Dow was around 1,800 when I got in, it is now around 18,000 or better. We have cost average weekly investments into several utility stocks and utility mutual funds for a long time, all that have decent dividends, dividends we also reinvested as well.
As in all of my businesses over the years, I could care less about a 1% wrap or any other fee. If The guy assisting me can make me just 2% more than the next guy that doesn't charge a wrap, one would be a fool not to pay it!
I think the barracuda and I have invested (luckily) through the good times so far. Hope you do as well Jordan. If you start investing, remember it is all on paper until you cash out. Paper means nothing! It is not fun to look at statements for 40 years, especially if they are showing a minus from the day you invested. Good Luck!
PS: I will say this, we have made more money buying and selling land and equipment, than we have in the stock market over all the years. Maybe that may be a way to go for you?
As in all of my businesses over the years, I could care less about a 1% wrap or any other fee. If The guy assisting me can make me just 2% more than the next guy that doesn't charge a wrap, one would be a fool not to pay it!
I think the barracuda and I have invested (luckily) through the good times so far. Hope you do as well Jordan. If you start investing, remember it is all on paper until you cash out. Paper means nothing! It is not fun to look at statements for 40 years, especially if they are showing a minus from the day you invested. Good Luck!
PS: I will say this, we have made more money buying and selling land and equipment, than we have in the stock market over all the years. Maybe that may be a way to go for you?
M
MoBuckChaser
Guest
And nobody that doesn't charge a wrap can guarantee they have the best return either.
Give me a million dollar land deal and I will make more in 1 year than any no load mutual fund will in 10 years, with a or without a wrap!
Give me a million dollar land deal and I will make more in 1 year than any no load mutual fund will in 10 years, with a or without a wrap!
M
MoBuckChaser
Guest
Because the guy with the wrap may be more versed in the Mutual fund biz, than the guy that isn't getting paid as much!
You can hire a $100 an hour CPA that is just out of school to do your taxes, or you can hire a $250 CPA that has 20 years in the tax BIZ that goes to all the ex IRS agent classes, and has the experience to save you loads of money.
I know where I go! LOL
You can hire a $100 an hour CPA that is just out of school to do your taxes, or you can hire a $250 CPA that has 20 years in the tax BIZ that goes to all the ex IRS agent classes, and has the experience to save you loads of money.
I know where I go! LOL
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Predicting how a fund will do in the future is difficult at best. Why would I trust advice from a financial planner who is making a big commission if I buy from fund family X, and little if anything if I buy from no-load fund family Y? I'm sure there are some planners who have the integrity to resist the temptation, but I'd guess they are few.
Those who swing for the fences strike out much more often than they hit a home run. Those who don't swing almost always strike out. Those who just focus on selecting a good pitch and making contact with the ball seem to do the best in the long run.
There is a big difference between gambling, picking stocks, and investing in companies. All have risks, but so does doing nothing.
Interesting the turn this thread has taken.
Thanks,
jack
Those who swing for the fences strike out much more often than they hit a home run. Those who don't swing almost always strike out. Those who just focus on selecting a good pitch and making contact with the ball seem to do the best in the long run.
There is a big difference between gambling, picking stocks, and investing in companies. All have risks, but so does doing nothing.
Interesting the turn this thread has taken.
Thanks,
jack
M
MoBuckChaser
Guest
"No one can predict a fund" is the smartest this said in this whole forum! Bahahahahahaha!
Everyone has a great track record until shit hits the fan!
I would trust a guy that has a wrap with a good track record than some pakistany answering the phones for VanGaurd!
Everyone has a great track record until shit hits the fan!
I would trust a guy that has a wrap with a good track record than some pakistany answering the phones for VanGaurd!
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Which is exactly what that guy counts on. But that is a false choice. The true choice is between a CFP that charges a fee for their service and uses the broad spectrum of no-load funds as investment vehicles, and a one that charges no fee for their service but is paid by the mutual fund family based on how much his clients invest in their fund.
Thanks,
Jack
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
Name a superstar fund manager that is trouncing the market repeatedly and has people flocking to him. Any manager.
Contrast that with money inflows to index mutual funds with no loads / low fees.
The last time people flocked to a star manager was when Peter Lynch was running Fidelity Magellan. It's been a time-proven fact that very few fund managers can beat the market averages in a given year, let alone consistently. I have owned several funds over the years and in most years, their total return after taxes were less than the market indices or benchmarks. Beating the market benchmarks 2 years out of 10 doesn't cut it - so why pay more for that kind of performance ?? To each his own, I guess.
Contrast that with money inflows to index mutual funds with no loads / low fees.
The last time people flocked to a star manager was when Peter Lynch was running Fidelity Magellan. It's been a time-proven fact that very few fund managers can beat the market averages in a given year, let alone consistently. I have owned several funds over the years and in most years, their total return after taxes were less than the market indices or benchmarks. Beating the market benchmarks 2 years out of 10 doesn't cut it - so why pay more for that kind of performance ?? To each his own, I guess.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
True, but not every planner works that way. If you use a planner like a manager and hand him money on invest through him, you are right. If you use a fee planner for advice and invest directly yourself, they are living on their fees. Anyone who thinks there is some "talented" manager that can consistently beat the market, they are kidding themselves. In fact, the system is stacked against it. There is a big difference between evaluating and investing in a handful of companies with small dollars and fund size investments. The larger the fund, the fewer options a manger has.
In my view, the best role of a planner is to help folks quantify their financial objectives and help develop long term plans balancing savings and spending. The second role is to help keep folks anchored when investing the savings side and bring some realism to bear dampen get rich desires and calming the fears of folks who want to burry it in the back yard.
How much you save and how soon you start saving have a much larger impact than specifics of rational market investing. Some will beat the market by a tiny margin over the long haul and some will under perform it by a but. Some will take unrealistic risk in hopes of a home run and underperform miserably. Some will be risk adverse and underperform. Short of the extremes, the specifics of the investment are dwarfed by how much you save and how soon you start.
Thanks,
jack
In my view, the best role of a planner is to help folks quantify their financial objectives and help develop long term plans balancing savings and spending. The second role is to help keep folks anchored when investing the savings side and bring some realism to bear dampen get rich desires and calming the fears of folks who want to burry it in the back yard.
How much you save and how soon you start saving have a much larger impact than specifics of rational market investing. Some will beat the market by a tiny margin over the long haul and some will under perform it by a but. Some will take unrealistic risk in hopes of a home run and underperform miserably. Some will be risk adverse and underperform. Short of the extremes, the specifics of the investment are dwarfed by how much you save and how soon you start.
Thanks,
jack
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
I agree 100% that the sooner one starts and sticks to the plan for the long haul - the better their chances of retiring in good shape. ^^^^^Trying to time the market is futile. Statistically, market returns revert to the mean ..... over the long term. Some years good - some bad. Staying the course and keeping calm in turbulent times is key.
I personally know of friends that pulled money out of the market in 2007 / 2008 - and realized ( truly ) a loss. Not on paper, but a real loss. One guy asked me if I pulled money out and I told him no, I actually did nothing. I rode it out and caught the rebounding market to this day, all the while dollar-cost-averaging regularly into my funds. The additional compounding during those past 8 years has netted me some good return. The best returns are on the money I put in when things were really down in 2007 / 2008, as they ( shares ) were the cheapest to buy and have risen the most, percentage-wise. Indexing has proven itself over the last 25 - 30 years, and several Nobel Laureate economists have endorsed the method. You still see a manager here and there advertising " I beat the market last year by 9% " !!! But watch the next year, and the next 2 or 3 after that. Chances are very great that same manager will lag the market by just as much - or more. Notice the distinct lack of bawdy advertisements in financial magazines trumpeting the returns of some super-star manager, compared to the 80's and 90's. There is a reason for that.
BTW - There have been reports in financial media the last few years of Wall Street brokers whining about bonuses being much lower than they used to be. It's due to the fact that more and more people are cutting out the middle-man by indexing. Not just at Vanguard either. Fidelity, Schwab, T.Rowe Price, - to name a few - all have booming index business now. More money in our pockets, less in the brokers' pockets. :)
I personally know of friends that pulled money out of the market in 2007 / 2008 - and realized ( truly ) a loss. Not on paper, but a real loss. One guy asked me if I pulled money out and I told him no, I actually did nothing. I rode it out and caught the rebounding market to this day, all the while dollar-cost-averaging regularly into my funds. The additional compounding during those past 8 years has netted me some good return. The best returns are on the money I put in when things were really down in 2007 / 2008, as they ( shares ) were the cheapest to buy and have risen the most, percentage-wise. Indexing has proven itself over the last 25 - 30 years, and several Nobel Laureate economists have endorsed the method. You still see a manager here and there advertising " I beat the market last year by 9% " !!! But watch the next year, and the next 2 or 3 after that. Chances are very great that same manager will lag the market by just as much - or more. Notice the distinct lack of bawdy advertisements in financial magazines trumpeting the returns of some super-star manager, compared to the 80's and 90's. There is a reason for that.
BTW - There have been reports in financial media the last few years of Wall Street brokers whining about bonuses being much lower than they used to be. It's due to the fact that more and more people are cutting out the middle-man by indexing. Not just at Vanguard either. Fidelity, Schwab, T.Rowe Price, - to name a few - all have booming index business now. More money in our pockets, less in the brokers' pockets. :)
PackerBacker
5 year old buck +
There is not a standard "kickback" to a CFP. If your CFP is getting .25% from the fund company - your most likely not in the lowest cost share class.
If your CFP is saying there is no fee to deduct, it is because you are in a higher cost mutual fund that is paying him and you don't get to deduct fund costs or the money is in an IRA and you can't double dip on the tax deduction.
PackerBacker
5 year old buck +
Nope - 100% correct in my statement.
Based on the fact that it is your brother - I'm going to assume you just trust him to handle the money and he didn't fully discuss with you the in's and out's of the investments because there is a difference between the no load version of a fund (which you seem to be in) and the lowest cost share class (which you aren't in if he is getting paid .25% from the fund company). Do find it funny that you would think that is the norm for fee schedule when it is your brother - but then again - most people in your brother's shoes wouldn't charge their family member.
What are a few of the ticker symbols for the mutual funds you are in?
Last edited:
PackerBacker
5 year old buck +
That may be true. He may not "charge" a fee but he is still getting paid from somewhere.
Back to my point - you may be in a no-load mutual fund but as you said above - he is getting .25% from the fund company. If that is the case and assuming it is not an IRA and you meet the requirements to deduct management fees, there is a good chance you were better off with him using the lowest cost share class that doesn't pay him the .25% and having him actually deduct a .25% management fee from your account. All else equal, fund performance is going to be better by the difference in the costs and you have a deductible expense so your after-tax returns are higher.
PackerBacker
5 year old buck +
Starting to see how Steve feels having a discussion with Dipper...
Your statement is flat out false. Any ethical financial advisor (not just a CFP) that charges a management fee would not collect the management fee and the "kickback" as you call it and the majority of the firms out there would not even allow it. In the small cases where there is not the same fund that doesn't have the .25% payment and it needed to be used in a portfolio, the .25% would go to offset the 1.25% charge or it would be returned to the client's account.
As I asked before, what are a few of the tickers in your portfolio that have the .25% kickback? Happy to show you using your own investments how it really works.
As for the mortgage question - you don't have $2 in your pocket in both cases. If you start with $3 in your pocket, pay out the $3 mortgage, and they give you $1 back - you have a $1 in your pocket. If you start with $3, only have to pay out a $1, you have $2 in your pocket.
M
MoBuckChaser
Guest
Jordan Selsor
5 year old buck +
Sorry I'm so late in getting back to this party! Mobuckchaser I wish I could get into flipping land but I get to attached! I
Tks for all the great info and comments. Obviously some opposing veiws on most efficient way to invest. Plan to investigate things further. First off by finding out WTF a ticker is!? Lol Next what kind of wrap fee am I paying now. Just going off of memory I think it's .5 but it's been 6 yrs since I have gone over that with my guy at Edward jones whom was appointed by former employer. Believe my former employer received a discounted group fee. Either way. I started a new job that has a sweet pension so need to revisit my options on who or how I manage my simple an Roth IRA's.
Thanks again guys for the interesting read lol
Tks for all the great info and comments. Obviously some opposing veiws on most efficient way to invest. Plan to investigate things further. First off by finding out WTF a ticker is!? Lol Next what kind of wrap fee am I paying now. Just going off of memory I think it's .5 but it's been 6 yrs since I have gone over that with my guy at Edward jones whom was appointed by former employer. Believe my former employer received a discounted group fee. Either way. I started a new job that has a sweet pension so need to revisit my options on who or how I manage my simple an Roth IRA's.
Thanks again guys for the interesting read lol
Bill
Administrator
As a guy that now lives off investments 100%. I've steered clear of this conversation. I don't have a 4-0..anything.
No pension, no welfare, no unemployment.
What I do have is a guy I trust. Didn't take that decision lightly. I met with a lot of suits. Some said they could double my $.??? Some said they could preserve it????
What I have now now is a guy I like. He charges me 1% on stock investments "that rarely changes". 0% on muni's that never change "and pays the bills".
Beat your chest all you need to but here is the sad truth. You "will" die 20 years before your wife. Said wife has 0 clue what you're talking about when you tell her how much you know.
Find a young trustworthy person. That's my advice.
Doesn't hurt to threaten him once in while either :D
No pension, no welfare, no unemployment.
What I do have is a guy I trust. Didn't take that decision lightly. I met with a lot of suits. Some said they could double my $.??? Some said they could preserve it????
What I have now now is a guy I like. He charges me 1% on stock investments "that rarely changes". 0% on muni's that never change "and pays the bills".
Beat your chest all you need to but here is the sad truth. You "will" die 20 years before your wife. Said wife has 0 clue what you're talking about when you tell her how much you know.
Find a young trustworthy person. That's my advice.
Doesn't hurt to threaten him once in while either :D
Jordan Selsor
5 year old buck +
Your right
Look at the teamsters unions pension. I think they took a 30% pay cut:eek:
Ours is a Mo state laggers pension. Must be a tax funded entity to buy in. Very stable and overfunded. But time will tell ehh. Failure of anything would not surprise me in the world we live in:(
But I always have a back up plan. In this case simply live the simple life aka 1000 sqft off the grid house at the farm:)